Topic: Toyota has poop on it's face

[Sleeve of Wizzard]

I just read this article about Toyota that I found to be interesting. I have been wondering lately if Toyota is gonna pull through this mess but they have dug themselves a nice big hole.   

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1352/ap-impact-toyota-secretive-on-black-box-data/

AP IMPACT: Toyota secretive on 'black box' data
AP IMPACT: Toyota secrets in auto 'black box' data emerging in sudden acceleration lawsuits print send e-mail this page
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         Buzz Up! By Curt Anderson and Danny Robbins, Associated Press Writers
SOUTHLAKE, Texas (AP) -- Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.

The AP investigation found that Toyota has been inconsistent -- and sometimes even contradictory -- in revealing exactly what the devices record and don't record, including critical data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.

By contrast, most other automakers routinely allow much more open access to information from their event data recorders, commonly known as EDRs.


AP also found that Toyota:

-- Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors.

-- Uses proprietary software in its EDRs. Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S. containing the software needed to read the data following a crash.

-- In some lawsuits, when pressed to provide recorder information Toyota either settled or provided printouts with the key columns blank.


Toyota's "black box" information is emerging as a critical legal issue amid the recall of 8 million vehicles by the world's largest automaker. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said this week that 52 people have died in crashes linked to accelerator problems, triggering an avalanche of lawsuits.


When Toyota was asked by the AP to explain what exactly its recorders do collect, a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash.


The statement said information is captured about vehicle speed, the accelerator's angle, gear shift position, whether the seat belt was used and the angle of the driver's seat.


There was no initial mention of brakes -- a key point in the sudden acceleration problem. When AP went back to Toyota to ask specifically about brake information, Toyota responded that its EDRs do, in fact, record "data on the brake's position and the antilock brake system."


But that does not square with information obtained by attorneys in a deadly crash last year in Southlake, Texas, and in a 2004 accident in Indiana that killed an elderly woman.


In the Texas crash, where four people died when their 2008 Avalon ripped through a fence, hit a tree and flipped into an icy pond, an EDR readout obtained by police listed as "off" any information on acceleration or braking.


In the 2004 crash in Evansville, Ind., that killed 77-year-old Juanita Grossman, attorneys for her family say a Toyota technician traveled from the company's U.S. headquarters in Torrance, Calif., to examine her 2003 Camry.


Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.


A Toyota representative told the family's attorneys there was "no sensor that would have preserved information regarding the accelerator and brake positions at the time of impact," according to a summary of the case provided by Safety Research & Strategies Inc., a Rehoboth, Mass.-based company that does vehicle safety research for attorneys, engineers, government and others.


One attorney in the Texas case contends in court documents that the Toyota may have deliberately stopped allowing its EDRs to collect critical information so the Japanese automaker would not be forced to reveal it in court cases.


"This goes directly to defendants' notice of the problem and willingness to cover up the problem," said E. Todd Tracy, who had been suing automakers for 20 years.


Randy Roberts, an attorney for the driver in that case, said he was surprised at how little information the Avalon's EDR contained.


"When I found out the Toyota black box was so uninformative, I was shocked," Roberts said.


Toyota refused comment Thursday on Tracy's allegations because it is an ongoing legal matter, but said the company does share EDR information with government regulators.


"Because the EDR system is an experimental device and is neither intended, nor reliable, for accident reconstruction, Toyota's policy is to download data only at the direction of law enforcement, NHTSA or a court order," the Toyota statement said.


Last week, Toyota acknowledged it has only a single laptop available in the U.S. to download its data recorder information because it is still a prototype, despite being in use since 2001 in Toyota vehicles. Three other laptops capable of reading the devices were delivered this week to NHTSA for training on their use, Toyota said, and 150 more will be brought to the U.S. for commercial use by the end of April.

By contrast, acceptance and distribution of data recorder technology by other automakers is commonplace.


General Motors, for example, has licensed the auto parts maker Bosch to produce a device capable of downloading EDR data directly to a laptop computer, either from the scene of an accident or later. The device is available to law enforcement agencies or any other third party, spokesman Alan Adler said.


Spokesmen from Ford and Chrysler said their recorder data is just as accessible. "We put what you would call 'open systems' in our vehicles, which are readable by law enforcement or anyone who has a need to read that data," Chrysler spokesman Mike Palese said.


Nissan also makes its EDR data readily available to third parties using a device called Consult, spokesman Colin Price said. The program allows access to a host of vehicle data, from diagnosing the cause of a check-engine light to downloading EDR data after a crash, he said.


However, Honda does not allow open access to its EDR data. Spokesman Ed Miller said the data is only readable by Honda and is made available only by court order.


In many cases, attorneys and crash experts say EDR data could help explain what happened in the moments before a crash by detailing the positions of the gas and brake pedals as well as the engine's RPM.


"Had Toyota gotten on the stick and made this stuff available early on, I think they'd be in a better position than they are now," said W.R. "Rusty" Haight, owner of a San Diego-based collision investigation company.


In congressional hearings on the recalls last week, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Toyota's EDR data cannot be read by a commercially available tool used readily by other automakers. "Toyota has a proprietary EDR, which is the system that only they can read," LaHood said.


The AP review of lawsuits around the country found many in which Toyota was accused of refusing to reveal EDR and other data, and not just in sudden acceleration cases.


In Kentucky, to cite one example, a recent lawsuit filed by Dari Martin over a wreck involving a 2007 Prius sought information from Toyota to bolster his claim that the car's seatbelt was defective. Toyota refused, contending there was no reliable way to validate the EDR data and that an engineer would have to travel from New Jersey or California at a cost of some $5,000 to retrieve it.


"There is simply no justifiable reason for Toyota not to disclose this information," Martin's lawyers said in a court filing.


Lawsuits in California and Colorado have accused Toyota of systemically withholding key documents and information in a wide variety of accident cases, but no judge or jury has found against the car company on those allegations.


Some crash experts say Toyota shouldn't bear too much criticism for failing to capture large amounts or specific kinds of data, because EDR systems were initially built for air bag deployment and not necessarily to reconstruct wrecks. They also vary widely from vehicle model to model, said Haight, the San Diego collision expert.


"That doesn't mean I'm hiding something or preventing you from getting something," Haight said. "It simply means that, in the development of a car, other considerations took priority -- nothing more."


Anderson reported from Miami. AP Business Writer Dan Strumpf in New York, AP writer Greg Bluestein in Atlanta and AP Researcher Barbara Sambriski in New York contributed to this report.

 
Copyright © 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
 

[kneedownnate]

Big deal, toyota is at least owning up to the issues.  Ford is still around and has screwed over so many more people while blatantly denying much more obvious safety hazards/issues.

[axled89]

sabotage

[Stocker]

The Toyota Witch Hunt

Much of the testimony from Congress's Toyota hearings is riveting and emotional but can't be trusted, writes Ed Wallace


"Several times I have noticed that the acceleration will drop off the second I take my foot off the pedal. Please advise ASAP!!!!!!!!!"—NHTSA Toyota Complaint #10302477
"Accelerator stuck, wide-open position, sudden acceleration to high speed, while driving. Unable to stop vehicle with braking system."—NHTSA Toyota Complaint #10302541


The above are two of the thousands of complaints registered with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration concerning speed control issues with late-model Toyota (TM) Camrys. The media keep saying that "close to 3,000 complaints of uncontrollable unintended acceleration" have been sent to the NHTSA, and doing so may make their audience think each of these "complaints" stems from a legitimate problem—maybe even an accident. Like everything else in this fiasco, that's overstated.


What is important to remember is that many of the items included in that number are not complaints at all. The first one above actually reports that the accelerator pedal works exactly as it's designed to: It doesn't stick, it responds instantly.


And many serious-sounding complaints raise questions as to their veracity. For example, in the second complaint above, in spite of the fact that the person claimed the throttle was stuck in a full open position, with no brakes, that file also shows the vehicle was not involved in a wreck. That is a very strange outcome for a car driving uncontrollably at a high rate of speed with no working brakes.
"Malfunction Could Not Be Duplicated"

On Feb. 23, a House Energy & Commerce subcommittee held lengthy hearings on the Toyota situation. Their first witnesses after the committee members' opening statements were Eddie and Rhonda Smith of Sevierville, Tenn., who related the story of their 2007 Lexus ES 350.


Ms. Smith claimed she had been driving toward Interstate 40 when, immediately after entering the highway, her Lexus started accelerating out of control. Ms. Smith related how the cruise-control light came on, so she turned that system off. She put the automatic transmission into all of its gears, including neutral and reserve. She put both feet on the brakes and still nothing. According to her testimony and an article published at WATE.com on Aug. 29, 2007, she also engaged the parking brake. She called her husband—not that she felt he could help, but "just to hear his voice one more time"—and then, according to her testimony, "prayed for God to help me." Ms. Smith credited God with intervening after she'd gone six miles at more than 100 mph. The car simply started slowing down, and she could finally bring it to a complete stop.


Smith's testimony was riveting and highly emotional, and anyone watching could see she honestly believed she was relating what actually happened. No viewer could have been untouched by her sincerity. But that's not the end of her story.


Her local Lexus dealer examined her car and could find nothing. Then, as Ms. Smith related, the NHTSA actually sent an employee down to Tennessee to investigate her complaint. Only the NHTSA concluded that she had two sets of floor mats in her car—a rubber all-weather floor mat, placed on top of the standard factory issue—and it was likely that situation had created her problem. In fact, Smith was quoted in 2007 as saying, "I think it's sad that these mats were installed like they were."
The Smiths dismissed the dealer's findings, the NHTSA's, and an arbitration board's by saying that they had been "called liars." More than likely the investigators simply said that there was no evidence they could find to explain the situation as she described it.


The Proof Would Be Visible

In a case like this, some physical evidence would remain; and a thorough investigation should be able to determine what truly took place. Certainly slamming on the emergency brake, as Smith claimed she had done in 2007, leaves tangible evidence. Here's why.


The parking brake in a Lexus ES 350 operates separately from the power brake system. It is a secondary disc/drum brake that is controlled by a direct link cable—so the car's electronics could not come into play. Moreover, once that cable-operated brake is fully engaged, it could lock up the nonpowered rear wheels of the Lexus, effectively negating the antilock brake system's ability to operate. And locking the real wheels on a Lexus ES 350 moving at a high rate of speed would "sand" the bottom of the tires against the pavement. In a partially engaged position, it will heat up and cause brake damage. But either way, because it is being applied on the rear wheels—and the Lexus ES is a front-wheel-drive car—it would still slow the car down.


This is the one thing Rhonda Smith claimed she tried and it didn't work that no one can blame on ghosts in the electronics.
As for Ms. Smith's position that she threw her car into reverse and it did nothing to either stop the car or damage the transmission, that's an incredible claim that so far no mechanic believes. Just as anyone who has ever tested cars knows that full pressure to the brakes will always override engine speed. (It should be noted that on Toyota's hybrids you can put the car in reverse while in motion, and nothing will happen.)
Rhonda Smith thanked Sean Kane, president of for-profit auto industry safety consultant Safety Research & Strategies Inc. for inviting her to testify on Tuesday. For those who didn't watch the proceedings, the most humorous part was Kane trying to get out of answering the direct question, Did part of his funding come from litigation attorneys who are actively suing Toyota on this issue? In fact, they do pay him. According to a Feb. 13 article in The Wall Street Journal, the Rehoboth (Mass.)-based company works with plaintiff's attorneys to file suits against the automakers it investigates.
Follow-up: The Smiths sold their Lexus after that incident, and, also according to the Journal, last week the NHTSA checked with the new owners and "they have had no problems with the Lexus since they bought it with less than 3,000 miles on the car."
"Findings" Hardly Scientific

Herein lies the problem with congressional hearings on issues like this. The individuals who should have testified following Eddie and Rhonda Smith could have been the NHTSA expert who flew to Tennessee, inspected her vehicle, and concluded that it was likely the double layer of floor mats. Or the certified mechanic at her Lexus dealership likewise could have told Congress how he could find no evidence of mechanical failure with her car. Who knows, their testimony might have validated her claims, had it been proved that they did little or nothing to truly try to uncover what happened that day. Conversely, things could have gone the other way. But we all would have had a better, more balanced understanding of her case as stated.


Instead, we were treated to Dr. David Gilbert of Southern Illinois University, also a guest of Mr. Kane's, who claimed to have found how Toyota's electronic system could totally malfunction, creating a runaway car—and claimed he'd found the error in less than four hours. Spoiler alert: Dr. Gilbert was assigned this work by Kane's safety advocacy firm, with at least partial funding by trial lawyers.


Here, too, is a problem: Dr. Gilbert said he relayed the results of that test and his concerns directly to Toyota. In short order Toyota looked into Dr. Gilbert's claims and found them not to be valid in terms of creating unintended acceleration. Then, to the company's surprise, it watched his appearance with Brian Ross on ABC News this past Monday night, Feb. 22.

According to Toyota, it now appears that Dr. Gilbert had done something completely different in order to get a Toyota Avalon to accelerate under its own power. Toyota offered to evaluate Dr. Gilbert's Avalon, with ABC in attendance, and see what he did electronically to cause it to accelerate.
Additionally, Toyota is fairly adamant that Gilbert's "test evaluation" on ABC News was not the original "discovery" he relayed to them on Feb. 16.
Back in the Hot Seat

Back in the congressional hearings, Representative Bobby Rush (D-Ill.) played another tragedy for the committee. It was the case mentioned in my last column, that of the Toyota Avalon that on Dec. 26, 2009, went into a pond and killed four people in Southlake, Tex. Rush apparently felt he should go on record before Congress about this because one of the individuals killed in that tragedy had a relative in his district.
Rush's emotionally charged statement concerns a case that continues to reverberate. Yet it should be noted that Southlake police saw no evidence that the driver attempted to brake before the Avalon entered the water. One eyewitness claimed to have passed the car prior to the accident and been unable to see a driver sitting up.


More troubling is the insinuation in the media by the driver's widow that the car had been taken several times to Texas Toyota of Grapevine for unintended acceleration with no problem found. The family's attorney, Randy Roberts of Tyler, Tex., repeated her allegations this past weekend in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. However, Chris Grady, general manager of Texas Toyota, has already turned over the service records on that Avalon to both Toyota and Mr. Roberts. And those records show that the Avalon had been in their shop once and once only—for nothing more than an oil change. There were no complaints on any malfunction whatsoever.
As it turns out, no Toyota dealer in the whole South Central region had ever had any complaints about unintended acceleration, before this story broke nationally. At the Gulf States Toyota mid-winter meeting, attended by more than 150 dealers, an official asked for a show of hands of any dealers who'd ever had such a complaint in their service department prior to this story breaking nationally. And in this closed meeting, according to three dealers who were present, not one dealer raised a hand.


Furthermore, why didn't Congress simply ask Toyota to provide a complete list of all warranty claims on this complaint made before the media made their serious allegations? That would have taken this issue out of the realm of speculation into one of hard facts.
Forgetting the Question: Is It True?

If only to resolve the rabid focus on Toyota's problems, it's past time to turn this over to the engineers. Innuendo, emotion, and speculation are not how one resolves an issue such as this. Even in the hearings in Congress, it appeared that most witnesses were tied to safety advocates, litigation attorneys, and traumatized victims; that's like trying a case in court with no defense attorneys. The outcome is almost preordained.
Maybe that's the point.


Instead of endlessly repeating "the NHTSA has 3,000 or so listed complaints on this problem," the media should bear in mind that many cases in that number are not actually "complaints," per se. Continuing to use that statistic just keeps misleading the audience. So let's cull the reported number down to just the accidents, those that can't be explained fully, and study them.


There's no escaping the fact that many of the vehicle-blamed accidents reported were actually caused by driver error (something Toyota will never say out loud), and many of the owners of these automobiles know that. As noted before, brakes always win out over engines, even at full throttle; that has been tested and proved many times in the past 20 years, including recent Car and Driver tests on Toyotas. So, if someone claims a car was speeding out of control and the brakes refused to work, from an engineering viewpoint that claim is instantly suspect.
Cut to the Bonfire

If Congress really wanted to get at the truth, they should have called disinterested third-party engineers to study and get their opinion on this case. Nobody believes Toyota, even if the final facts prove it's correct. Everyone believes the witnesses, even when the engineering evidence often disproves their testimony. It is impossible to come to a scientifically valid conclusion under those two circumstances, which is why many individuals involved in this issue have described the proceedings as "witch hunts."


Come to think of it, maybe that's exactly how the hearings should be run for full entertainment value.
Congress should reconvene the hearings in Salem, Mass. They could tie a Toyota to a long pole and dunk it into Beverly Harbor. If the Toyota sinks, then Congress will find the company guilty of all charges. But if the Toyota floats, we'll find the automaker innocent. This should be done in real time to get the maximum TV audience; although the outcome would, again, be predetermined, it should still be a ratings grabber.


The alternative is to let the mechanics and engineers do their jobs and either find the fault or give everyone a reasonable explanation for what happened. The only problem with that suggestion is it's already been done. And no one wants to accept the conclusions.
Ed Wallace is a recipient of the the Gerald R. Loeb Award for business journalism, given by the G. and R. Loeb Foundation, and is a member of the American Historical Society. His column leads the Fort Worth Star-Telegram's "Sunday Drive" section. He reviews new cars every Friday morning at 7:15 on Fox Four's Good Day, contributes articles to BusinessWeek Online, and hosts the top-rated talk show Wheels Saturdays from 8 a.m. to 1 p.m. on 570 KLIF.


http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...225_403524.htm

[THK Matt]

Yup Yup, which is why I wont buy a NEW vehicle

[Toymin8r]

I find it ironic that in the midst of a major failure of the American automobile manufacturing industry that the Worlds largest automobile maker all of the sudden, after years of some of the most well built and reliable vehicles available, has numerous "electronic" problems that could potentially cripple the entire company.    I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist but something is definitely fishy.    Those computers can be accessed remotely by anyone with the knowledge on how to do it.   I wouldn't put it past our union friendly gov't to be involved in some way. 

[<MIKE>]

X2^^^^^

[Stocker]

I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist but something is definitely fishy.    Those computers can be accessed remotely by anyone with the knowledge on how to do it.  

I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, either.... and I am dumb as a stump about computers. Armed with that knowledge, I fail to see how someone can remotely access (and manipulate) the computer in your car. Can you please explain that?

[Toymin8r]

I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, either.... and I am dumb as a stump about computers. Armed with that knowledge, I fail to see how someone can remotely access (and manipulate) the computer in your car. Can you please explain that?

The same way they can send a door unlock signal or engine shut off signal to your vehicle.  They do it by accessing the cars computer and sending the proper electronic signal to whatever device they want to control.  The most widely known system is by GM called Onstar but all of the car manufacturers have systems that perform the same function.  It's done using satellite phone technology and every car made since about 2000 or so has one.

[toyotech]

toyota doesnt have any type of wireless access to the engine control unit. gm is the only company and maybe high end cars have wireless access. as far as i know toyota doesnt have anything like what gm has with onstar.

there are all these cases or complaints but yet we havent found anything that shows toyota is at fault. maybe i missed read a few things but i just skimmed thru it.  how can all these cars that have been involved in accidents suddenly have pedal issues. so you own a car with 30,000+ miles on it and all of a sudden the pedal decides to get stuck

[BLACKDOG]

crappy materials mabye, that are just wearing out prematurely? 


What I don't understand, and that I find hard to believe, is the braking.  Over the course of high school auto shop, we screwed around with (and destroyed) several vehicles, and some of them got pedal to the metal, and full brake.  the engine overwhelmed the brakes, but they certainly restricted speed. 

Also, pulling the e brake is going to drop speed, and as mentioned, there are no electronics there to screw up.

[toyotech]

turn key off.... or press the power button for 3 seconds. lazy ass owners need to know there vehicles before using them. i blame retarded owners

[mkyhmltn]

Check this out, pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c&feature=player_embedded

[YotaChris]

hahahahahahahahahahaha That is the funniest video I have seen in a long time!! I had to watch it twice cause it was soo funny! Mad props to that guy!!   

[THK Matt]

neutral usually cures that problem

[kneedownnate]

I've talked to women who seemed to know little more about their cars than the stereotypical women driver, and they echo the same sentiment:  people panick and are therefore hurt or die.

[germ]

First: never underestimate the stupidity of the average human, and the corollary to that is: When given the opportunity, people will invariably do the stupidest thing possible. (remember, this is a generalization).

Second: In today's society, the majority of people will not take responsibility for their actions. It is ALWAYS someone elses fault. And there are plenty of bottom feeding scum suckers (lawyers) out there to remind you of this if you ever get the thought that it may have been your fault.

Third: If there is a way to get a quick buck, even if it means lying, cheating, perjury or just plain stealing, many people won't think twice before they act. Once they have chosen that path, they will have to do whatever it takes to maintain their position, even when it is untennable.

Fourth: The popular media are a bunch of idiots, who will latch on to anything they think they can make a headline out of ( and thus make a buck).

So, in conclusion, we have a bunch of idiots stirring up the pot because stupid people have done stupid things, and then lied about it so that the could get a few extra bucks, and in the process not have to take responsibility for their stupid actions.

Does Toyota really have a problem? I'm not smart enough to answer that question myself, but I certainly have my doubts that they would suddenly have such a major issue with so many cars across so many lines. And why are we not hearing about similar issues in Europe, South America and Africa, where there are more Toyotas than people? Like any auto manufacturer, there are going to be certain vehicles (individuals) that have problems. I find it hard to believe that it could be so wide spread, but then I am a skeptic and tend to be cynical at best. They do however have a major public relations issue right now. I wouldn't completely exclude the possiblity that the now government owned GM/Chrysler may have something to do with this, but I cannot substantiate that. Who would stand to gain if the #1 car manufacturer was made to look like it just stepped on it's richard?

Makes you think a little doesn't it???

[kneedownnate]

Does Toyota really have a problem? I'm not smart enough to answer that question myself

A rare mistake by germ!  You are smart enough to answer that, you're just ignorant of the facts   

And I'm still saying no, Toyota doesn't have a legit issue, they've just tried to cover their butt and are getting the short end of the stick because they're a foreign company doing huge business here in a time when we need US based companies to do well. 

[toyotech]

should have special license to drive a hybrid

[ROKTOY829]

Doing the recall we have removed 4 floor mats from the drivers floor board. Toyota has made somebody very mad. Every car company has complaints of unattend accelration. But they are trashing Toyota due to they are on top. Also Toyota has a onstar type system coming out but it is on ncertain models starting in 10. But has Ron White said you can't fix stupid. All this does is let the people blame somebody else for there issues. Also it shows just how well people can drive and control thereselves.

[kneedownnate]

Had to bump this today.  Drove a newer corolla into the bay today and had to watch my feet when I got in.  Why?  The genius lady had a vent clip on air freshener, misc. paper stuff, a small shirt or panties, and various other crap floating around the DRIVER floorboard    I moved the air freshener myself and suggested the supervisor suggest she move the stuff from the floor.  I guarentee, absolutely guarentee, she'd jump on the bandwagon if she crashed her car because some of her crap got stuck under one of the pedals.

[Marc P]

I am a service advisor for a big dealer here in San diego...we have done over 3,000 recalls in the past 3 months and have yet to find a car with a sticking accelerator pedal....we have seen a ton of unsafe floormats, carpet pieces, towels, etc on the drivers floorboard...even after all the warnings. Today I had a customer come in for service in his Camry that we had performed the "sticky pedal" and floor mat entrapment recall about 1 month ago and he had already put a huge rubber mat on top of his factory mat after I explained the whole issue to him...people just dont have common sense,

[kneedownnate]

Hopefully you document stuff like that, especially since you know that guy would jump on the bandwagon and try suing toyota WHEN he wrecks!  Not at all surprised that you haven't found one defective unit out of so many.  People are inherently stupid, and what's worse is they won't willingly admit their mistakes but will rather let a big company take the fall!

[Cheesemaker]

I'm sick of all the newer cars that run by wire.  What happened to a good old fashioned throttle cable with a return spring? 

Here's a good example.  When I bought my 2001 Chevy Venture van, I really didn't like the electronic power sliding door that it came with, on the passenger side.  Yeah, it's helpful when the weather is bad and you can open it with a push of a button, and let the kids in real fast, while putting groceries in the back.  But last year the door didn't want to open on its own, so to the dealership it went.  After $150 diagnosis, the main brain that controls it, needs replaced.  $500 later it works.  Then 6 months later the door won't unlatch.  Come to find out the latch has a recall.  Fixed that.  Then we are in Fresno on vacation, I find out the door doesn't lock.  Fixed that.  Then two weeks ago the door wouldn't open at all.  Finally got it to open.  Then two days ago the door won't stay closed, cause it won't latch at all.  The same latches that they just replaced in a recall.  So, now I got a appt. for monday to see WTF now??!?  And this whole door is operated by electronics.  It won't operate in the manual mode, cause that would ruin the operation of the motor. 

And the driver side slider door, is a manual one.  It has worked flawlessly.  Why can't they just leave things alone.  I can understand making fuel injections better, better braking, a better shifting transmission, but things like doors, and a electronic gas pedal, leave it alone.

And don't get me started on my ABS system on my van.  It died and they want over $2000 to replace it.  So, it's deactivated, and it stops better now than before.

[kneedownnate]

It's tough to throw a chevy in the mix when speaking of build quality    I personally don't like the whole drive by wire thing either. 

[Cheesemaker]

It's tough to throw a chevy in the mix when speaking of build quality    I personally don't like the whole drive by wire thing either. 

I've never had any serious issues with GM ever in my life.  But when you start looking at issues, that are costing owners $$$$, when a simple idea would work better in the long term.  Not electronics.  If my door was a manual, I wouldn't have had to spend any $$ on it already, and it wouldn't be sitting at the dealership right now.  And Toyota wouldn't be sitting in hot water and having egg on their face right now, if they just left a throttle cable on instead of drive by wire.  But since we are all lazy and some engineer has to sell a new "HOT" idea, this is what we are stuck with. 

[*ROKTOY*]

Hey, Shiat happens even to the best.

[kneedownnate]

And Toyota wouldn't be sitting in hot water and having egg on their face right now, if they just left a throttle cable on instead of drive by wire. 

I'd have to hear of some actual instinces of failure before I conjectured that.  As of now, all I've heard is failures due to people having the wrong or double floor mats.

[BigMike]

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. I've been preaching this all along. Just look at the track record of Toyota. THEY BUILD GREAT CARS. In my opinion all this CRAP and garbage complaints were blown out of proportion ON PURPOSE BY THE US JUST TO PROTECT OBAMA MOTOR COMPANIES

Check this out!!! Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703999304575399523349443634.html

Release of Toyota Documents Blocked, Ex-Official Says

By MIKE RAMSEY  And JOSH MITCHELL

DETROIT—Senior officials at the U.S. Department of Transportation have at least temporarily blocked the release of findings by auto-safety regulators that could favor Toyota Motor Corp. in some crashes related to unintended acceleration, according to a recently retired agency official.

George Person, who retired July 3 after 27 years at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, said in an interview that the decision to not go public with the data for now was made over the objections of some officials at NHTSA.

"The information was compiled. The report was finished and submitted," Mr. Person said. "When I asked why it hadn't been published, I was told that the secretary's office didn't want to release it," he added, referring to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.

A Transportation Department spokeswoman, Olivia Alair, said NHTSA is still reviewing data from the Toyota vehicles the agency is examining. "Its review is not yet complete. The investigation remains ongoing," she said.

A Toyota spokesman declined to comment. A NHTSA spokeswoman did not respond to phone calls and an email seeking comment.

At the time of his retirement, Mr. Person, 67 years old, was chief of NHTSA's Recall Management Division, which is part of the agency's Office of Defects Investigation. He said he was briefed on the agency's probe into the causes of accidents in which drivers said Toyota vehicles suddenly accelerated on their own, and said he offered his input on the matter to investigators.

Ms. Alair said Mr. Person "was not involved in any aspect of the ongoing investigation into unintended acceleration."

Mr. Person said he retired in good standing with the agency. Ms. Alair said she could not comment on personnel matters.

Mr. Person's comments follow a July 14 story in The Wall Street Journal that said NHTSA had accumulated data suggesting many sudden-acceleration incidents were the result of drivers stepping on the gas when they thought they were hitting the brakes.

Earlier this year, Toyota recalled more then 8.5 million vehicles globally for defects related to sudden acceleration, and paid a $16.4 million fine for failing to report safety issues promptly.

NHTSA came under criticism by Congress and auto-safety advocates, who accused the agency of being too cozy with auto makers in recall investigations.

Toyota has said its investigations show that sudden-acceleration problems were caused by floor mats that could pin down the gas pedals of its cars. It also found some gas pedals could get stuck briefly in an open position.

Some members of Congress and auto-safety advocates have suspected electrical glitches could also be a cause.

Since March, the agency has examined 40 Toyota vehicles where unintended acceleration was cited as the cause of an accident, Mr. Person said. NHTSA determined 23 of the vehicles had accelerated suddenly, Mr. Person said.

In all 23, he added, the vehicles' electronic data recorders or black boxes showed the car's throttle was wide open and the brake was not depressed at the moment of impact, suggesting the drivers mistakenly stepped on the gas pedal instead of the brake, Mr. Person said.

"The agency has for too long ignored what I believe is the root cause of these unintended acceleration cases," he said. "It's driver error. It's pedal misapplication and that's what this data shows."

Mr. Person said he believes Transportation Department officials are "sitting on" this data because it could revive criticism that NHTSA is too close to the auto maker and has not looked hard enough for electrical flaws in Toyota vehicles.

"It has become very political. There is a lot of anger towards Toyota," Mr. Person said. Transportation officials "are hoping against hope that they find something that points back to a flaw in Toyota vehicles."

NHTSA has received more than 3,000 unconfirmed complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas, including some dating to early last decade, according to a report the agency compiled in March. The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths.
—Kate Linebaugh contributed to this article.

Write to Mike Ramsey at michael.ramsey@wsj.com and Josh Mitchell at joshua.mitchell@dowjones.com


(emphasis added by BigMike)

[jimbo74]

i actually heard this last week..... the news said the federal investigators found the toyotas were for the most part fine, and that the black box evidence revealed people cant drive for crap and are retarded