another religion thread

[scott85runner]

 i  was just reading the religious questions thread and thought i would ask for some opinions.                                                                                                                                           1. if you were born into a muslim family do you think you would be a muslim as an adult and would believe christians to be wrong in there beliefs.                                                                                                                                              2.how does any one religion know that what they believe is the correct belief as opposed to any other religions beliefs.

[BikerTrash]

1: I believe I would (even though I am not)
2: Faith and everyones natural belief that what ever they believe and understand to be the truth is the correct version truth.

[scott85runner]

someone once said the definition of faith is believing in something you know isnt true

[scott85runner]

if you answer yes to the first question does this mean that heaven will be filled with only people lucky enough to be born into the right religion?

[BikerTrash]

I answered yes to the first question because that is how I feel the question is best answered. If I had been raised Muslim I would probably have grown up to be a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, what ever. A good portion of people grow up believing the way they are taught from a young age. And since I would believe as a Muslim believes (as in your proposed situation) I could not (as I understand it) be a good Muslim and believe that Christians are correct in their belief because that contradicts my chosen belief system and therefor is wrong.

And I believe that the definition of faith is believing something that can not be PROVEN.

There is a difference between lack of proof and being "not true".



Forgot to comment on your second post.

I am afraid that will be how it will be unfortunately. It would be nice if it was like in grade school and there where no losers and everybody won at the end of the day but life is not like that and most likely (and I hope I am wrong) the after life will be about as fair as life is.

[GhostMoney]

"There is a difference between lack of proof and being not true."

There has been many things that have been found in the world that go along with christianity and what the bible says Not to start a debate or anthing

[chim]

2. The Bible is proven true every time someone digs for earth worms in the middle east... no other "religious" book can claim the same.

[scott85runner]

okay i am a little slow,your going to have to explain that earthworm referance

[BikerTrash]

okay i am a little slow,your going to have to explain that earthworm referance

X2

[blackdiamond]

The "earthworms" has nothing specific to do with it, what he's talking about is archeology and the many artifacts that have been discovered that support the Bible.

[scott85runner]

i am sure there are artifacts that corrispond with the times spoken of in the bible but i know of no artifacts that support the miracles in the bible or any artifact proving gods existance or proving jesus was anything more than a religious man.every religious person thinks there religion is the true one,the best one,the one that will give eternal life.the facts seem to me that no book religious or scientific can prove where the human race came from or where we will be when we pass.

[BLACKDOG]

i  was just reading the religious questions thread and thought i would ask for some opinions.                                                                                                                                           1. if you were born into a muslim family do you think you would be a muslim as an adult and would believe christians to be wrong in there beliefs.                                                                                                                                              2.how does any one religion know that what they believe is the correct belief as opposed to any other religions beliefs.

1. Probably, but hopefully not.  It is common for a person to follow their familie's religion, but that doesn't always happen.

2. Faith, and study.

[scott85runner]

if your families beliefs are your beliefs then how can you honestly believe they are correct and not just based on an ingrained bias toward the way you were raised.how often do you here of a person being brought up christain and then just one day realizing that an opposing religion makes more sense to them and converting.not to often.how could any  omnipotent god deny entrance into heaven because a person was born into the "wrong" religion beyond there control.what if i were born in an area of the world where christianity had never been introduced but i was a good person in all aspects of life.would i be turned away at the gates because of geography?

[Doof]

personaly:
i believe that when you pass you go to a purgatory state (yeah kinda like the movie and spelling?) and you prove yourself worhty of passing on to "heaven", but if you fail you are "reborn" and get a new chance but you have no knowledge of your past life so you are back to square one and try again.....and so on and when you get to your idea of heaven you see who you want and have anything at your finger tips...

but thats just me, it could be wrong, it might be right nobody knows

[scott85runner]

silly58willy, the funny thing to me is that your own personal belief has as much actual proof that it is true as all the established religious beliefs do.you made the statement that it could be true and i think your right,i guess what bothers me is that its more and more common for people to say there beliefs ARE true.religious beliefs are solely based on faith,and i cant seem to get my head around this faith thing.

[BLACKDOG]

silly58willy, the funny thing to me is that your own personal belief has as much actual proof that it is true as all the established religious beliefs do.you made the statement that it could be true and i think your right,i guess what bothers me is that its more and more common for people to say there beliefs ARE true.religious beliefs are solely based on faith,and i cant seem to get my head around this faith thing.

Actually, you are wrong.  More and more, the Bible is being proven as true.  Yes, there are many things that cannot be explained, but archeologists have long turned to it for information on where ancient artifacts are buried.  THey go to where it says, and dig, and they find what it says they would!!  How is that not proof?  I'm not nearly as learned as some of the other members of this board, but I have done a good extent of study into the Bible, what it teaches, and the proof that has been found.  If you are truly interested, I would recommend A Case For Christ by Lee Strobel, another author, Josh McDowell wrote a similar book, but the title escapes me at the moment.  Both men were aetheists, who set out to prove the Bible false.  Both learned otherwise through their studies. 

It is dangerous to think of a noncommittal (for lack of a better word) God.  If all you have to do is prove yourself worthy, how do you go about doing that?  By living a good life?  define a good life.  What happens if you screw up?  How many times are you allowed to screw up before you are deemed not worthy?  Almost every religion on earth has a hell, or a place for evil people to go.  How do you avoid doing that?

Think about it this way.  If you took your car into a shop, and the mechanic told you that you could do all this stuff to make it better, but he didn't tell you what it was, would you do that?  Or would you rather go to a mechanic who would sit down and spell out exactly what you needed to do, and how to do it?  Obviously I'm biased toward the Bible, because I am a Christian, but the Bible is pretty clear on what happens, why, and what you can do about it. 

[BikerTrash]

I think the other book your are thinking of is "A case for a creator". Very good book.

Also I would like to say that you made some good points about a non committal God, I was trying to think of a way to say something like that but I am not that good with words.

[Doof]

silly58willy, the funny thing to me is that your own personal belief has as much actual proof that it is true as all the established religious beliefs do.you made the statement that it could be true and i think your right,i guess what bothers me is that its more and more common for people to say there beliefs ARE true.religious beliefs are solely based on faith,and i cant seem to get my head around this faith thing.

it could be but i doubt it...and im with you on the faith thing also, i just dont get it and i dont really care to

[Doof]

Actually, you are wrong.  More and more, the Bible is being proven as true.  Yes, there are many things that cannot be explained, but archeologists have long turned to it for information on where ancient artifacts are buried.  THey go to where it says, and dig, and they find what it says they would!!  How is that not proof?  I'm not nearly as learned as some of the other members of this board, but I have done a good extent of study into the Bible, what it teaches, and the proof that has been found.  If you are truly interested, I would recommend A Case For Christ by Lee Strobel, another author, Josh McDowell wrote a similar book, but the title escapes me at the moment.  Both men were aetheists, who set out to prove the Bible false.  Both learned otherwise through their studies. 

It is dangerous to think of a noncommittal (for lack of a better word) God.  If all you have to do is prove yourself worthy, how do you go about doing that?  By living a good life?  define a good life.  What happens if you screw up?  How many times are you allowed to screw up before you are deemed not worthy?  Almost every religion on earth has a hell, or a place for evil people to go.  How do you avoid doing that?

Think about it this way.  If you took your car into a shop, and the mechanic told you that you could do all this stuff to make it better, but he didn't tell you what it was, would you do that?  Or would you rather go to a mechanic who would sit down and spell out exactly what you needed to do, and how to do it?  Obviously I'm biased toward the Bible, because I am a Christian, but the Bible is pretty clear on what happens, why, and what you can do about it. 

i have never read the bible or studied it, but i do know from casual convo with friends that it has good morals that people should live by, and im down for that. but when it comes to believing in something with so many unknowns just doesnt seem to fun to ME. i would much rather spend my times doing things that interest me. im sure one day down the road i might read the good book, but for now im not. yes that is al ittle off topic but what i dont understand is how "good christians" can preech to others about how they are a bad person because they do not believe in what the other does. and with that who is the judge if you get into "heaven and hell"?? if "god" made people to live life, then he is the only one who can judge reguardless of what you have done in your life. if i met him i would as him what you have to do to get into the "heaven" state, and same as with "hell" and i would be my left nut that he would accept people for doing what they feel is correct and dont necessarly need a book to tell them how to live their lives........i might be way off topic by now but o well, i hope whoever reads this could follow that


edit:   blackdog: im not wrong, but i might not be right either. i believe the bible to be wrong, yea so these two guys went and explored and converted, good for them. but that doesnt mean the bible is correct. along with the findings you mentioned, just what were they? a city? a clay pot? that just proves that people were there long before. it says nothing about who was there and for how long, it could be dated to a time period close to when the bible says jesus walked, but that shows nothing except that whoever wrote the bible just guessed about the location based on a myth that his grandpa told him as a young chap. whos to say that jesus wasnt just a random guy who just happened to be nice to others and people thought he was sent from god because of a few nice comments or acts of kindness?

[Lowrider]

1. Yes.
Almost definitly if you were born in the middle east. If you were born in the middle east, you are either muslim, or planning on moving.
2. They dont know anymore than the next religion does. But we all want to be right.

[scott85runner]

i agree with silly58willy,just because you can prove that the bible was written at the time it says it was doesnt prove any of the miracles or other supernatural things actually occured.the bible isnt true just because it says its true,i dont live in that kind of world.another thing that has always bothered me about christianity is that it seems to tell you to treat everyone a certain way and live a certain kind of life and YOU will be rewarded with eternal life and want for nothing after you DIE.how convenient that your reward comes after your death,what do you do after you die and nothing happens like the book says.you rot in a grave.how bout if you come work for your whole life on my farm and i will pay you your lifes wages the day after you die.not to good a deal huh?how about treating people right and living right just simply because its the right thing to do and not because of some afterlife reward?

[Doof]

scott that was well put   

[scott85runner]

thanks slick58willy.these things have been in my head for along time and i cant really ask anyone i know in person.i am surrounded by christians and as soon as i ask anything that exposes i am not they look at me as if i am the devil.most of the people i know feel like they are going to go to hell if they even contemplate the possibility i am right.i get alot of "well the bible says so thats why" kinda answers.i enjoy a reasonable debate.

[BLACKDOG]

thanks slick58willy.these things have been in my head for along time and i cant really ask anyone i know in person.i am surrounded by christians and as soon as i ask anything that exposes i am not they look at me as if i am the devil.most of the people i know feel like they are going to go to hell if they even contemplate the possibility i am right.i get alot of "well the bible says so thats why" kinda answers.i enjoy a reasonable debate.

As do I


I will never give you the answer "Because the Bible says so"  If you don't believe the in the Bible, then what is the point of that answer.  It doesn't leave any room for reasonable debate.  To be honest, the atttitude of modern day Christians astonishes me at times.  The holier than thou attitude is ridiculous, not to mention dead wrong.  Back to the Bible and it being correct on locations, you have to understand that the Bible was not written at one time, nor by one person.  It spans hundreds (if not thousands of years, I'm not sure) and was written by people of all walks of life.  This has been proven by science.  The idea that someone wrote about something that would happen thousands of miles away, hundreds of years into the future, and then have it occur, is pretty impressive.  I encourage anyone to do more study into the archeological expeditions in the middle east.   

i agree with silly58willy,just because you can prove that the bible was written at the time it says it was doesnt prove any of the miracles or other supernatural things actually occured.the bible isnt true just because it says its true,i dont live in that kind of world.another thing that has always bothered me about christianity is that it seems to tell you to treat everyone a certain way and live a certain kind of life and YOU will be rewarded with eternal life and want for nothing after you DIE.how convenient that your reward comes after your death,what do you do after you die and nothing happens like the book says.you rot in a grave.how bout if you come work for your whole life on my farm and i will pay you your lifes wages the day after you die.not to good a deal huh?how about treating people right and living right just simply because its the right thing to do and not because of some afterlife reward?

What defines the right thing to do?  You say that we should treat people right, and live right, but what defines that?  Society?  Did you know the golden rule was actually coined by Jesus?  In all honesty, moral standing has been borrowed from the Bible.  That is almost entirely what Jesus taught about during his time on earth.  If you read the Bible, you would find that there aren't many requirements to be a Christian, and receive that eternal life.    If you're living a good life, and treating people well, you're already halfway there. 

[Doof]

thanks slick58willy.these things have been in my head for along time and i cant really ask anyone i know in person.i am surrounded by christians and as soon as i ask anything that exposes i am not they look at me as if i am the devil.most of the people i know feel like they are going to go to hell if they even contemplate the possibility i am right.i get alot of "well the bible says so thats why" kinda answers.i enjoy a reasonable debate.

where do you live that people do that?  thats pretty messed...im not bashing on religion at all but damn that sucks

[Doof]

o i love debates, even more so when its on a topic that i have feelings on



BD- if the bible has been written over a long period of unknow time (?) of say thousands of years, then why is it so short? honestly if i had the time of thousands of years to write a book it would be at least 20ft tall if not ten times that...a thousand years is a long  time....even hundreds for that fact. but if so many people over different centeries have contibuted, then (correct me if im wrong seeing i havent read it before, but being a book then i assume it follows some sort of plot) how are the entries selected to go in the section they are and from what im guessing have a not so strong moral at the start and the strongest at the end? (that is just a complete shot in the dark, and please correct me if im worng on this)

[scott85runner]

yes,i feel society defines what is right or wrong.do you think the reason most people dont commit murder is because the bible says not to. maybe you should try the old "eye for an eye" bit and see what society says about that.it seems that all the truly scary stuff in the bible is explained away by christians as not to be taken literal but all the inspiring and good stories are to be taken as fact. they say jesus really walked on water but the guy who killed his son because his son saw him laying naked is just a story and should be ignored. how does anyone know the bible isnt to be taken literally,is there a disclaimer on the first page?i was once a christain and i commited no fewer sins then than i do now.when i was still a believer i had no differant views on right or wrong than i do now.there are all kinds of books that give advice on how to live proper,not just the bible.the bible is just the oldest. oh and slick willy i live on a farm in alittle town in tennessee.

[scott85runner]

i almost forgot about the eternal life part you mentioned.i dont think i want eternal life,im 34 and everybodies already on my nerves.i couldnt think of anybody i could stand to be around that long.they probably wouldnt allow the stuff i like there anyway.

[BLACKDOG]

o i love debates, even more so when its on a topic that i have feelings on



BD- if the bible has been written over a long period of unknow time (?) of say thousands of years, then why is it so short? honestly if i had the time of thousands of years to write a book it would be at least 20ft tall if not ten times that...a thousand years is a long  time....even hundreds for that fact. but if so many people over different centeries have contibuted, then (correct me if im wrong seeing i havent read it before, but being a book then i assume it follows some sort of plot) how are the entries selected to go in the section they are and from what im guessing have a not so strong moral at the start and the strongest at the end? (that is just a complete shot in the dark, and please correct me if im worng on this)

It isn't only other people contributing, but the Bible is actually several books.  66 to be exact.   And to be honest, if you have a book (or book of books) would you really want to read someting that was at least 20 feet tall?  God's influence made the Bible easy to read, and to relate to, even across the ages. 
As for your last statement, you are wrong.  In reality, in the old testament (first 39 books, written before Christ's birth) there was a requirement for animal sacrifices to earn forgiveness for sin.  Christ's death on the cross (account written by 4 different people, first 4 books of the New Testament) was the ultimate sacrifice, and made it so that we don't have to preform sacrfices anymore.  In reality, no matter what we do, we cannot earn our way into heaven.  All we have to do is acknowledge that we are sinners, and recongize that Christ died in order to save us from Hell.  After that, following the golden rule (living a good life, treating others well) is just following Christ's example.  Pretty easy if you ask me. 

yes,i feel society defines what is right or wrong.do you think the reason most people dont commit murder is because the bible says not to. maybe you should try the old "eye for an eye" bit and see what society says about that.it seems that all the truly scary stuff in the bible is explained away by christians as not to be taken literal but all the inspiring and good stories are to be taken as fact. they say jesus really walked on water but the guy who killed his son because his son saw him laying naked is just a story and should be ignored. how does anyone know the bible isnt to be taken literally,is there a disclaimer on the first page?i was once a christain and i commited no fewer sins then than i do now.when i was still a believer i had no differant views on right or wrong than i do now.there are all kinds of books that give advice on how to live proper,not just the bible.the bible is just the oldest. oh and slick willy i live on a farm in alittle town in tennessee.

Ah, but the structure of society has been based on the Bible for hundreds of years!! Our laws of the nation are based on Christian values, and belief systems, as were the structures put in place in most of Europe.  Sure there are other advice books, but as you said, the Bible is older.  Do you think mabye the other books could have borrowed from the Bible?  As for your other statement, personally, I don't think that the Bible is supposed to be taken figuratively either.  It was all put in there for a reason.  I don't think anything should be ignored.  However, the eye for an eye law was one of the laws imposed by Moses to control the Isrealites as they travelled across the desert.  The new law, as told by Jesus (love you neighbor as yourself)  kind of supercedes it, not to mention the change from having to preform sin sacrifices in order to be forgiven, to Christ taking it all on his shoulders for us. 

If you don't mind me asking, what made you turn away from Christianity?  If you'd rather not answer, I totally understand, I'm just curious.

[scott85runner]

it was a gradual thing.i always had these questions that iwas afraid to ask or even really think about.it never really made sense that god would allow kids to get cancer or be abducted and killed.how does an all loving god allow the atrocities that happen to good people.i would pray and never see any change in the things i prayed about.my mom would tell me god works in mysterious ways,they never seemed mysterious to me it just seemed like god wasnt working at all.i would see bad things happen to believers just as often as non believers and one day the answer just seemed to come to me, the reason prayers dont get answered,kids get murdered and humans are allowed to be so cruel to one another is because there is no god.it made sense to me that if i worked like god did i would have got fired a long time ago.it worries my girlfriend because she is a real believer,but as i try to explain to her  my brain wont allow me to believe in god anymore than her brain allows her to believe in santa clause or the easter bunny.its easier being a believer ,especially in the united states we live in now.its probably similar to being a homosexual,you know your differant and you hide it for a long time because you know the majority are going to think your wrong and then one day you face it and you let people know.i couldnt change the way i think if i tried,i am driven by a godless mind.its good to talk about about it and i appreciate you taking the time to post.