another religion thread

[Inittowinit]

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[BLACKDOG]

After many, many posts I have yet to really see an answer to the original questions. A few people have made some small concessions to the idea that if a person were raised in a different culture they would then believe differently than they do.

I think all Scott is looking for is people to open their minds a bit and take a look around. How can so many cultures have such diverse religious beliefs if all humanity had a single creator?

What makes one religion better or more "right" than the other one?
What if I believed in unicorns and leprechauns and even had an ancient manuscript telling about the creation of them right alongside man?

Nobody would respect my beliefs if I insisted unicorns and leprechauns existed because some book told me so. Heck, I would probably be locked up in a nice soft room somewhere.
So how exactly is a belief in unicorns different than a belief in god(s)?

Forget mythical animals, what about Allah? Or Thor? Zeus? Poseidon? What god and what holy book do I choose if not unicorns?

What about the claims that the christian god is all loving? Then why won't he heal amputees, or stop HIV, or prevent natural disasters? Before you reach for the bible to answer this, remember I could just as well get at least five different answers from five different religions. Who chooses the right answer?

What about the claims that god is all knowing? Then why the temptation and the fall from grace? Or did god know and choose to allow the serpent to tempt Eve just to inflict pain and suffering on his creation? Was he incapable of stopping Eve from eating? If so, then why is god claimed to omnipotent? A creator who can will a universe into being should be able to stop a person from eating an apple.

Then again there are billions of people who scoff at such musings and tell an entirely different story for the creation of man that has nothing at all to do with serpents and apples.

Why hell? An all loving god who wants the very best for his creation? Yet he would inflict suffering and torment for eternity? Not a lifetime, not generations, or millions of years, but for all eternity? Where is the love? Where is forgiveness? If god knew that people would never be be perfect, and had to create hell so that some could gain heaven then I say who gave him the right to choose? And if god is all-knowing then why bother? Why not just create heaven and hell already populated with the appropriate people? Or take that a step further and just create heaven with all the good people in it and don't create hell (and all of the evil contained in it). Why all this mucking around with normal life then an afterlife? Let's just skip to the end, shall we?

Or are we some kind of lab rats for his cosmic experiments? Is all this heaven and hell business a test to see who is really good and who is really evil? How come god doesn't just know the answer to that? Well intentioned people around the world do their best to protect animals used in research because they know it is the right and moral thing to do...who keeps an eye on god?

The books that would become the bible and other religious texts were largely written by primitive, iron age peoples with iron age superstitions and morals. They were written by men who believed that the earth was flat, that the sun went around the earth, and had no conception of what science would eventually teach us about this grand and wonderful universe we live in.

It is time we left the past so we can focus on changing the future and shaping the world into a place we can be proud to leave our children. We have many challenges in our future and as long as faith keeps us divided, then divided we will fail them.

Not to be a broken record or anything, but if you want those answers, read the Bible.  Most of the answers are in there.  Of course, if you think the Bible is a load of crap, then you aren't going to read it, and you won't get the answers you seek, and you'll continue to spout these questions, wondering why God did this, why God did that, to no end.  Sure, you can get other answers from other religions, and that is fine.  You have the right to believe whatever religion you choose, just as everyone in the world does.  Sure, if you grow up worshipping Allah, you've got a better chance of being muslim, just like if you grow up with aetheistic views, you've got a good chance of growing up an aetheist.  There you go, answers to the first question (as far as I remember it, its been a while.  )  Even the Bible says that everyone has that choice.  You don't have to follow God, but you will eventually acknowledge his presence. (my belief)

You claim that the Bible ws written by primitive men, with outdated superstitions and morals?  What would you suggest then?  Its my opinion that the Bible lays down some pretty good morals, ones that many of us in the 4x4 community share, and encourage others to have.  Lets see, here's a few "iron age" morals that I can think of off the top of my head, perhaps we should do away with these?

Treat others as you would like to be treated
Do not lie
Do not murder
Do not cheat
Do not steal
Help those in need
Do not commit adultery
Do not cover thy neighbors wife (belongings, etc)
Honor thy mother and thy father

those sound pretty good to me  But I guess we should do away with them huh?  Seeing as they are "iron age" beliefs.  Somehow I don't see getting rid of those beliefs benefitting this world for future generations.  Seems like it'll screw them over, just like its already screwing up the world as it is right now.  Divorce is high, murder rates are on the rise, prisons are over crowded, you're just as likely to get hit by another driver and have him drive off as you are for him to stop and accept the consequences.  I think I'll stick to my beliefs thanks


As I said before you've got a right to believe in God, multiple gods, no gods, unicorns, leprechauns, and fairies if you want to.  I choose to believe in the Almighty God, and I will continue to do so.  Not because my parents told me to, not because some jack politician told me to, not because some teacher told me too (where do you find these teachers anyway? Most of mine told me not to believe in God)  I will believe in God because I have done research into the subject of his existence, have studied some ancient history (Interesting, how the Bible call say where something is, and archeologists can go dig in that area, and  its there!!  But that must just be coincidence) and feel that what the Bible says is true.  

Sure, I could just be following some stone age superstition, and die, and be wrong, but the best part of that is, I'll never know.  However, if an Aetheist lives his life knowing God doesn't exist, and dies, it sure would suck to find out he was wrong.  I don't think I am, but hey, that is my choice, just like it is your choice whether or not you want to believe in something else.  

I don't believe having religious differences will lead to societal failure in the future.  Sure, they can cause some conflicts, but I tell you what, I work with people of all sorts of ethical, moral, and spiritual backgrounds on a daily basis and we get along fine, and deal with some gnarly situations without failing.  

Bash me all you want, I don't care.  Thats part of life.  I'll survive, and I'll stand up for my beliefs as long as I live.  I don't do this to judge anyone, but if someone wants to judge me or my faith, I will defend it.  

[scott85runner]

toyota4x4,i believe your single post has stated what i have not been able to in all of mine.very well said.

blackdog,i have read the bible,prayed and done all the things a good christian is supposed to do.then i grew older and my mind opened up and i ignored what everyone said i should believe and allowed my mind to do what it does.think.it seems christians like to believe the bible created morality with the ten commandments.all of the rules in the ten commandments were written well before the bible existed.they are old as man,check into it.as far as the world declining because of shying away from the morals spoken of in the bible,since the begining of time people have complained "whats the world coming to".people today are just like people have always been.more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other single cause.as i type these words someone somewhere is being killed in the name of religion.here in the states weve got it good,baptists dont like the catholics.catholics dont like the church of god,church of god folks dont like the pentocostals.on and on and on.does it cause any death or destruction?no. thats not the case in other parts of the world,they kill the opposing group.car bombs,machetes,guns,knives,women,children,elderly it doesnt matter.all that matters is that they dont believe in god the way i do.religion,what a blessing.

inittowinit,for every down on there luck,victim of spousal abuse,rape victim that an american church helps there is ten innocent kids killed by a car bomb ,in the name of god,somewhere else.it is one world.the way i see it a innocent dead muslim in pakistan is as much a tragedy as a innocent dead christian in tennessee.were all the same.religion as a whole will always do more harm than good.

[BLACKDOG]

toyota4x4,i believe your single post has stated what i have not been able to in all of mine.very well said.

blackdog,i have read the bible,prayed and done all the things a good christian is supposed to do.then i grew older and my mind opened up and i ignored what everyone said i should believe and allowed my mind to do what it does.think.it seems christians like to believe the bible created morality with the ten commandments.all of the rules in the ten commandments were written well before the bible existed.they are old as man,check into it.as far as the world declining because of shying away from the morals spoken of in the bible,since the begining of time people have complained "whats the world coming to".people today are just like people have always been.more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other single cause.as i type these words someone somewhere is being killed in the name of religion.here in the states weve got it good,baptists dont like the catholics.catholics dont like the church of god,church of god folks dont like the pentocostals.on and on and on.does it cause any death or destruction?no. thats not the case in other parts of the world,they kill the opposing group.car bombs,machetes,guns,knives,women,children,elderly it doesnt matter.all that matters is that they dont believe in god the way i do.religion,what a blessing.

inittowinit,for every down on there luck,victim of spousal abuse,rape victim that an american church helps there is ten innocent kids killed by a car bomb ,in the name of god,somewhere else.it is one world.the way i see it a innocent dead muslim in pakistan is as much a tragedy as a innocent dead christian in tennessee.were all the same.religion as a whole will always do more harm than good.

Scott, to be honest, I agree with most of what you are saying, and it is a tragedy. Personally, I do believe in God, and the Bible, but I don't really care for any organized religion that is out there (catholic, baptist, muslim, whatever) I believe what the Bible says, and try to adhere to it, but I have a hard time getting past the hypocrisy of the "followers".

I completely agree with you that an innocent dead muslim in pakistan is just as much a tragedy to an innocent dead christian in tennessee.  Even though we may have differences of religion, we are all people, and should be treated the same ( Jesus teaches that in the New Testament, the good samaritan, golden rule, etc. )  I treat the muslim guy at 7-11 (not stereotyping, I'm serious, the 7-11 local to me has a muslim guy wearing a turban working there)  exactly as I would treat someone I know is a Christian.  their beliefs are their beliefs.  I may feel their beliefs are wrong, but I'm not going to treat them any different because of it.  I will treat them as a human being, just as I'd like to be treated.

[Hammerhead]

1. if you were born into a muslim family do you think you would be a muslim as an adult and would believe christians to be wrong in there beliefs.

It is reasonable to assume that one might follow the traditions of his fathers.  It is also reasonable to believe that one might study outside those parameters to explore other possibilities in truth.  One must be "converted" on his own at some point in his life to truly believe.

2.how does any one religion know that what they believe is the correct belief as opposed to any other religions beliefs.

Study, faith and prayer are the only path to gain a testimony of Christ.

Please forgive me for altering your original questions.  The way they were stated it was impossible to give an honest answer without automatically opposing any other viewpoint.

[TOYOTA4X4]

I want to say right up front, that I absolutely respect everyone's right to believe as they choose, to worship as they chose, and to raise their families as they choose. I have and will continue to fight for those rights. I believe very passionately in our rights as set forth by the Constitution.

That said, your right to worship as you please ends when it intrudes on my rights to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. Absolutely the same applies to me. I cannot in good conscience stop anyone from practicing their beliefs...except when such practice harms the public. Then I have a duty as an American and as a human being, to protect those who need it. When political decisions are made in the public arena based upon religious opinion and those decisions affect the health and safety of others that is when religion becomes a problem. This is why the Founding Fathers saw the wisdom in separating church and state. 

This is sole reason that I even discuss such things in public. And, no, religion did not kill my mom.

Please don't take my words as a personal attack. I certainly do not intend them that way.

Blackdog, In your response you challenged my idea that the morals in the bible are primitive and were written by Iron Age men with no concept of modern science and morals. You gave us a quick run down of some rules known as the ten commandments and presented them as proof of the bible's superior morality. And you told me to read the bible to get the answers to my questions.  So which part of my statement was false? Nevermind...I digress.

Through all of that, again, I saw no real substantive answer to the question: which god and holy book is right? Without this answer, how can I choose? Just pick one and hope I get lucky? But wait, that is exactly what you propose by telling me how sorry I will be when I die and find out the truth. The problem here though, is that we can turn that argument on its head and apply it to any belief. I could just as well say to you, won't you be sorry when you die and find out you should have worshiped Thor.

Not only that, but suppose I took your wager and chose the belief in the christian god "just in case". Wouldn't look to good when I die and the authorities in heaven find out I got in because I played the odds. I thought god could see into our heart of hearts... I dunno just seems like a cheap trick to me.

As far as reading the bible, you are right... a person should know what they are talking about here. Of course you only have my word for it, but I actually have read the bible. But wait, which version is the best one? I'll admit that I did not go to the source and learn Hebrew so I could read the original. I read the KJV that has been in the family for generations. Also read the Mormon bible (skeleton in the closet, here...most of my father's family is mormon). Read one of those Gideon handout bibles...you know, the ones they leave in hotels around the country. Even tried reading a Catholic bible (in latin – which is harder that it looks, I eventually gave up on finishing that one). And I read one of the New American Standard versions.

So let's look at what is generally agreed upon as the ten commandments....

Exodus 20:1
"And God spake all these words, saying,
20:2
I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Let's leave aside that there is absolutely no historical evidence of Hebrew slaves in Egypt....

20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Jealousy? From god? Jealousy is generally regarded as a negative trait in humans, but I guess it's alright for god...I mean he surely doesn't need to follow the rules, right?

20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

So I suppose the Sistine Chapel should be torn down then. Oh and all of those statues of saints, Da Vinci's Last Supper, and those little candle votives with Jesus and the Virgin Mary on them, and etc... Is god really asking man to never engage in any kind of representational art here? Hmmm, seems he could have found better use for commandment space, like oh...maybe something prohibiting child pornography or something.

20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Got it, god is jealous....moving right along here; seems he's unforgiving too, I mean punishing people who never actually did anything to him? I could be off base here, but generally speaking civilized societies realize that the sins of the father are not the sins of the son...could it be that humanity has progressed beyond the morality of this commandment?

20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Ok, this part is not so bad I suppose. Being nice to those that love you is generally a Good Thing. We needed god to tell us this though? Really? How many of us would not have been born if we were cruel to those who love us? Seems the human race had this concept down long before the bible. (I know, this verse is typically merged with the one above, but hey...I wanted to stay true to the source)

20:7
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Ok, I'll admit I don't really get this one. What exactly is god prohibiting here? Freedom of speech? Or is ok because we are Americans?

20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Another one that seems to go right over my head. I'll admit having a day off is great no matter who grants it. Seems this one may have had some divisive effects though. Which day is supposed to be the Sabbath again? I seem to recall that some sects have some....differences on this one.  Maybe another place god could have put something a little more...relevant. Maybe something against rape. Oh, but that would interfere with the whole women as property theme in the bible. Nevermind...another topic entirely.

20:9
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Right, this is part of the above...but wait! I like my two day weekends, darn it all. I'm surprised business owners don't flaunt this one around a little more...you know, so they can justify more productivity from the masses. I mean god said work six days, not five...right?

20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

I know, I know...this is all part of the above, too. But what about those poor souls on flex schedule? Whatever will they do? And the cattle? How is god defining work here? Walking around eating grass and corn, getting fat for us so we can have our BigWhopperMacBurger?

20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Got it, Sabbath is holy....really.  I think he means it.  But do we really believe that the entire universe was created in six days? Really? This seems like a good place to bring up something....which parts of bible do we ignore and which parts do we obey? If god did it all in six days, then boy has science sure screwed up. And yet science seems to work ok; this laptop I am using works great, so does my car that I drive, and the power plants that keep me safe and warm in my home, and atom bombs...(I won't talk about evolution here...don't want to push my luck)

20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Not a bad sentiment really. I could get behind this one. Hmmm, what about that sick guy that sodomized his eight year old daughter (pick a horror story here, I'm generalizing); should that girl or anyone for that matter honor that particular father? I know I couldn't. That brings up another point...isn't god supposed to be like a father to all of us? What about those stories in the bible where he slaughtered kids with bears (that one gave me nightmares when I was eight), or killed every male child? Am I really supposed to honor this "father"?

20:13
Thou shalt not kill.

Right. Not bad. Kinda short though. Leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Are we supposed to never kill anything? Cows, pigs, deer? Are those ok to kill? What about self defense? War? Really, really Bad Guys? I could go on, but why?

20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Ok, generally speaking, adultery is probably not the best idea in the world, but again...really? We needed god to tell us this? Somehow, I think humans coulda fielded this one on their own. Leaving room for another, possibly more enlightening commandment!

20:15
Thou shalt not steal.

In nearly all cases, yes stealing is a Bad Thing. But, I dunno, kinda like the don't kill one...short. I'm sure I could think up a few reasons why it might, just might, be ok to steal. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Ok. Don't lie about neighbor. Got it. Earthshakingly profound is it not?

20:17
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's."

I'll admit covetousness is not the prettiest human emotion. But without it our wonderful free enterprise, capitalistic American culture would fall apart. I mean our economy depends on us hard workin' folk to get out there and buy that 50" plasma HDTV. And let's not even mention cars...those ultimate expressions of American independence and status.

Whew! That took awhile to get through. If anyone actually reads through to the end here, please don't bomb my house or anything. I am not trying to be offensive, although I know many will take it that way. It just seems to me we as humans can come up with some pretty darn good morals all on our own. We don't need the bible to tell us these things. Sure nobody is perfect and there will always be those who are selfish, amoral, or just plain wrong in the head. We can deal with that. All by ourselves.

[TOYOTA4X4]

Hammerhead, that's cheating. The first question is a 2 parter and you need both parts to get the point that Scott was trying to make. Let me make it clearer for you:

Part A. If raised as a Muslim, would you be a Muslim yourself?
Part B. If raised as a Muslim, living as a Muslim, and worshiping as a Muslim, would you believe that christians are wrong in their beliefs?

See, you didn't answer the hard one to justify by changing the conditions of the question. Why?

If the truth according to christianity is so obvious that a Muslim living in an Islamic culture would seek it out and be saved...why isn't every last person in America christian? I mean it is a whole lot easier to be a christian here than in Saudia Arabia...just sayin'

[TOYOTA4X4]

Hammerhead said:

One must be "converted" on his own at some point in his life to truly believe.

Ummm, question? What do you mean? If a person grows up in a nice christian family, with nice christian faith...he or she can't truly believe? Has to be conversion only, huh?



Or do you mean that nobody is inherently religious and must be taught to be?

[BigMike]

Why are we here, as humans, on earth?
The Great Controversy, Ch1-10

[Hammerhead]

How is that cheating?  By not playing into the arguement I cheated?  I have a Muslim friend who agrees that we all have the right to believe as we wish.  He doesn't believe I am wrong, he believes I am different.  No problem...



Converted is when one knows for himself that something is true because HE KNOWS it, not because someone told him.  OK, I can tell my child that the stove is hot and he can believe that the stove is hot but when he feels for himself that the stove is hot then he really knows that the stove is hot.  

I know that Christ lives just as I know that the stove is hot.

I believe that people are inherently religious and taught not to be by society.  Why do peoples who have never had outside contact with religions have their own Gods?

[BLACKDOG]

Sorry, brain fart. I'll post up tommorow. 

[BigMike]

I know that Christ lives just as I know that the stove is hot.

Could you give your personal testimony for this please? As much as I want to say and believe this, I only have faith as my guide..

[RynothealbinO]

I joined this kind of late, and managed to read the last page or so.  I geuss first of all you should be warned that I am a Christian, so what I say could be biased.  My answer to the question above would be: A. Likely yes, but like anything else in life that cannot be guaranteed.  So assuming that the aswer to question A was yes and I was serious about my religion then I would almost certainly believe that Christians were wrong (answer B).  I sincerely hope that that was not me twisting the questions so that I could answer them to my liking or advantage.  I really liked when 4x4 said "truth according to christianity is so obvious", because I totally agree with what he is saying.  This is what pisses me off about Christians sometimes (sorry, stereotyping, but I am including myself in this) is that we try to make it look like all the answers are so obvious and easy to attain that everybody should believe what we believe and if they do not they are idiots for not having the common sense to know better.  The fact of the matter is that not all of the answers are easy to attain and problems can not usually be fixed with a Bible verse.  Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing the Bible, because I personally believe that it is extremely important to my daily life.  I am just saying that there is alot more to this than having the right answers and shoving them in someone elses face.  This is where we Christians have failed (again myself included), in the Great Commission Jesus told us to make "Disciples of all nations"  not to anger and belittle other people.  Although he also said he did not come to bring peace but a sword...sorry different rant for a different time.  Anyways, back to the question, I believe from the perspective that I am at now that if I were in that situalion as a practicing Muslim I would not be saved.  That is why for myself and other Christians it is crutial that we try to obey the Great Commission, and bring these people to know Christ as there savior.  When I say this I mean bring what we believe as truth to them in a fair manner and letting them examine the facts for themselves, ultimately deciding if having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as their Lord as savior is right for them.  I personally believe that this is the only way for salvation to happen, but like others have said, this is my belief and you don't have to think this way.  I truly hope that if I was Muslim that there would be some Christian who would at least present the gospel or their personal testimony to me.  So that was alot of ranting, hopefully I can get on soon to give my thoughts on some of what is on here...but I've totally got a lunar eclipse to catch.

[scott85runner]

i have a few new questions.lets say tomorrow on national tv some man proclaims to be the son of god,was born of an imaculate conception.would he be embraced  and followed?would he be laughed at.would you laugh and dismiss him?

i think he would be labeled as a lunatic.but why?

why would he not be worshipped?

now lets say i author a book about such a man,filled with unbelievable stories.a book telling us how to live and how the world began and how the world would end.would you accept my book as fact even though i can offer you no proof any of these supernatural stories took place?

what makes the bible any more believable than my book.is it because of its age?does the age of a document prove its truth?is it because of the number of believers in the bible?millions cant be wrong can they?

if the stories in the bible were written anywhere else they would be considered pure fiction.think about that for a minute.monday through saturday we live in a no fairytale,the sun comes up in the east and sets in the west,2+2=4, kind of world.all of a sudden on sunday morning all bets are off,the impossible stories begin in churches all over the world and people just sit in there pew and nod there heads in agreement.amen preacher.praise the lord.testify brother james.why?why?why?

my answer is simple.the bible offers relief from the one thing everyone fears most. death.what better reward.eternal life in a perfect heaven away from all the strife and tribulations here on earth.people fear death like nothing else so they make themselves believe.they cant open there minds and ask the questions i ask because that would be blasphemy.the only way i can stay with those i love for eternity is to keep my head down and dont ask any questions.god works in mysterious ways son,its best not to test  him with these questions now go home and pray ,ask for forgiveness.

why do atheists not fear reading the bible as christians fear reading a book such as "a letter to a christian nation" or "god is not great"?i think its because they fear where these books may take there mind.some would probably say the devil is behind such books and they shouldnt touch them for fear of burning in hell.i know several preachers  who would say that.

why do christians feel the need to go to church so often? the bibles not that large a book to teach,why the never ending study?are christians just forgetfull and cant remember what the good book says ? could it be they need constant coaching to continue to believe the unbelievable? why dont large groups of atheists meet several times a week to reassure each other there beliefs are right?to preach the atheist theory to each other.

[Hammerhead]

Could you give your personal testimony for this please? As much as I want to say and believe this, I only have faith as my guide..

Read the general epistle of  JAMES,  chapter 1,  verses 5 & 6...

5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.  For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.


I believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.  I know that God lives and sent his Only Begotten Son to atone for our sins.  I know that Jesus lives and that Jesus is the Christ.  I know that through the Holy Ghost we can know these things and more.

[blackdiamond]

Got it, Sabbath is holy....really.  I think he means it.  But do we really believe that the entire universe was created in six days? Really? This seems like a good place to bring up something....which parts of bible do we ignore and which parts do we obey? If god did it all in six days, then boy has science sure screwed up. And yet science seems to work ok; this laptop I am using works great, so does my car that I drive, and the power plants that keep me safe and warm in my home, and atom bombs...(I won't talk about evolution here...don't want to push my luck)

As far as science, there is a lot of information on how things work, but the more they research and study the more complex things get.  In my opinion, most science was done from a biased prospective both on the creation and evolution side of things.  How different would science theory's be if the research was looked at assuming that creation was the truth?  Why does everyone assume that God created the world at "age" zero?  When He said, "Let their be trees," should we assume that He created a bag of tree seeds to be planted? 

I'm not intending to start a debate on science, just something to think about.  I have not had time to really keep up with the discussion, but this statement stood out to me as I read through the posts.  I'm currently reading a book called Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel that has been interesting.  The origin of the universe seems to be getting farther away rather than closer the more we learn.

Carry on...

[BLACKDOG]

I'm not intending to start a debate on science, just something to think about.  I have not had time to really keep up with the discussion, but this statement stood out to me as I read through the posts.  I'm currently reading a book called Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel that has been interesting.  The origin of the universe seems to be getting farther away rather than closer the more we learn.

Carry on...

Thats the guy that wrote A Case for Christ, correct?  I read that one, very interesting book. 


Sorry I didnt' get back on the other day, wound up working.  I'm actually at work now, so I can't stay long, but I will be reading up on the thread

[TOYOTA4X4]

How different would science theory's be if the research was looked at assuming that creation was the truth?  Why does everyone assume that God created the world at "age" zero?  When He said, "Let their be trees," should we assume that He created a bag of tree seeds to be planted? 

blackdiamond...you offer an interesting discussion point here. In your post, you seem to be saying that maybe the word of god can be seen as metaphor and not literal truth. Is this true? How then do we read the rest of the bible? Is all of it metaphorical or is it all the literal truth?

Or do we read the bible and choose which parts are metaphorical and which parts are literal? For example: Genesis is a metaphor and the strictures against homosexuality are literal?

Or is it the other way around? Who chooses? Who is right?

If the bible is literal, then why does it appear that few actually practices what it clearly commands? Take Deuteronomy 14:9-10 which says:
These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

This seems quite clearly to be a rule against eating any seafood that does not have fins and scales, like shrimp, crab, or lobster.

Is this law to be taken literally, and followed always? It sure sounds like god is giving a clear order here and if a person were to disobey him is it not sin?

Going back to Genesis, if we take the literal interpretation of the bible then why are there two different accounts of the creation? From a literalist viewpoint both cannot be correct and true. So which account is the true one?

[TOYOTA4X4]

I don't know if anyone would be interested to click through, but here is a very well written and detailed article describing many of the contradictions found in the bible.

You may find yourself challenged to ideas outside your experience, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it?
Give a good thoughtful read...at least you may become more well informed to what the other side has to say.

http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/biblecontra.html

[blackdiamond]

blackdiamond...you offer an interesting discussion point here. In your post, you seem to be saying that maybe the word of god can be seen as metaphor and not literal truth. Is this true? How then do we read the rest of the bible? Is all of it metaphorical or is it all the literal truth?

I believe you're reading way too much into my post.  All I'm saying is that God created a fully developed earth during the creation week so the trees likely had more than one ring, the animials were fully grown, etc...so it is reasonable that science could "date" the age of things prior to creation.

[BLACKDOG]

I believe you're reading way too much into my post.  All I'm saying is that God created a fully developed earth during the creation week so the trees likely had more than one ring, the animials were fully grown, etc...so it is reasonable that science could "date" the age of things prior to creation.

I've actually never thought of it that way   that is very interesting.

Toyota4x4, a simple, biblical answer to the discrepancy could be to refer to the verse (I'll have to look it up)  that basically says "1000 years to us is a day to God, and a day to us is 1000 years to Him"  Basically, saying God isn't bound by time, or space, and can act within or out of that time/space. 


I'm working on reading that link right now.


Some interesting reading here, interesting article apparently published by the Virginia Tech newspaper.  It sums up how I feel pretty well http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=659777

From the Collegiate Times today (VT's paper)

Column: Faith should be a tool of peace, not a weapon for hate-mongers
Matt Eldridge, regular columnist
Thursday, February 21; 12:00 AM

Charles Barkley, the former basketball player and 11-time NBA All-Star, has drawn some attention recently for calling Republicans "fake Christians" in an interview with Wolf Blitzer.

Barkley, a registered independent and Barack Obama fan, also stated in an earlier interview that he had left the Republican Party, which he had been an outspoken member of, because members had "lost their damn minds."

Charles Barkley is certainly a unique character who is mocked by some for his colorful way of speaking and his controversial commentary. After announcing his retirement, he joked, "just what America needs -- another unemployed black man." However, Sir Charles, as his fans call him, might have a point.

Before I go any further, I want to make it clear that a great number of Republicans, specifically religious Republicans, possess admirable morals and a real dedication to their faith. I will attempt, however, to draw a distinction between the way I interpret my faith and the way some vocal members of the far right have hijacked it.

As Barkley asserts, many in the extreme religious right use their faith simply as a means to judge others and to send themselves on "holier-than-thou" ego trips. Too many conservative evangelicals such as the Rev. Pat Robertson and the recently deceased Jerry Falwell use Christianity as a tool to discriminate and spread hatred. While Christianity and tolerance certainly are not two incompatible words, you wouldn't realize it after listening to many evangelical preachers.

Selectively using certain Bible passages to support their message of intolerance, these false Christians have missed the bigger message of acceptance, love, charity and openness which permeates the foundations of Christianity. Barkley criticized the way some on the religious right hide behind the word "morality" to sling attacks, insults and hate-filled declarations on others in order to progress their personal beliefs.

While Christianity is certainly the largest religion in our country, this issue is not Christian-specific and speaks to a fundamental issue regarding faith. To have faith does not mean to be disrespectful or hateful to others who do not share your beliefs. Indeed, while the message of some on the far right and those in the Islamic extremist movements are not exactly the same, they are very similar and both groups have attacked Americans in the name of their faith.

Islamist extremists have used Islam, which preaches peace and tolerance, as a way to legitimize heinous terrorist attacks. In the same vein, the extreme right has used the Bible -- which also preaches peace and tolerance -- to kill or ostracize those outside its "ivory tower" and have ironically echoed Al Qaida through calling for the forceful, and sometimes violent, conversion of non-believers.

There is a fundamental disconnect between how those in the far religious right and how those in the religious mainstream view the world and understand their faith. Falwell, for instance, claimed that "AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals" which may remind many of the much reviled Westboro Baptist Church which claim that tragedies such as the April 16 shootings occur because America has induced God's wrath because we "tolerate gays." I apologize for picking on Falwell as he is no longer alive to defend himself, but let's face it, like thousands before him, his message of intolerance, bigotry, ignorance and spite sadly echo beyond the grave.

For me, and for many within the religious mainstream, religious faith can never be used to justify feelings of hate and desire for the pain and suffering of fellow human beings. Viewing others as inferior, as many of the extreme right view minorities including homosexuals and Muslims, is unconscionable and is no more acceptable today than it was during Hitler's era or when slavery was commonplace.

For me, being Christian means accepting a multitude of opinions, following Jesus by embracing humankind in all of its diversity, helping those less fortunate through stewardship rather than through self-serving tirades on morality and being secure and comfortable enough in my faith that I am not forced by insecurities to constantly -- and vocally -- use it for the detriment of others.

[blackdiamond]

If you choose to not believe the Bible in a literal way, obviously you have to stay within context, you might as well toss the entire thing out.

Many people don't believe in a literal week of creation based on today's science.  Often the given reason is that it doesn't seem to agree with today's science data for the earth age.  This is essentially discounting what God said based on the knowledge of man.

If you start disbelieving in God Word based on "known" science you're severely limiting God.

If you don't believe in the "wild" miracles in the Bible like Jonah and the whale, the flood, babel, the talking donkey, then why would you believe that Christ could be raised from the dead?

Outside of Creation there is no reason for the week, I believe it was part of the Creation plan along with the Sabbath.  The Sabbath wasn't specifically created (it doesn't say, "And God said, 'Let there be Sabbath,'" but maybe this is because the Sabbath already existed God was simply giving the gift to us.  The Bible talks about us keeping Sabbaths for eternity.

[BLACKDOG]

If you choose to not believe the Bible in a literal way, obviously you have to stay within context, you might as well toss the entire thing out.

Many people don't believe in a literal week of creation based on today's science.  Often the given reason is that it doesn't seem to agree with today's science data for the earth age.  This is essentially discounting what God said based on the knowledge of man.

If you start disbelieving in God Word based on "known" science you're severely limiting God.

If you don't believe in the "wild" miracles in the Bible like Jonah and the whale, the flood, babel, the talking donkey, then why would you believe that Christ could be raised from the dead?

Outside of Creation there is no reason for the week, I believe it was part of the Creation plan along with the Sabbath.  The Sabbath wasn't specifically created (it doesn't say, "And God said, 'Let there be Sabbath,'" but maybe this is because the Sabbath already existed God was simply giving the gift to us.  The Bible talks about us keeping Sabbaths for eternity.

[Doof]

off topic kinda, but not really, just back tracking


remember a while ago when the two nice church ladies came to my house? well she has been back about four times and just left once again. how do i tell her thanks but no thanks and not be a jack about it?

[BLACKDOG]

off topic kinda, but not really, just back tracking


remember a while ago when the two nice church ladies came to my house? well she has been back about four times and just left once again. how do i tell her thanks but no thanks and not be a jack about it?

Tell her thanks, but no thanks, you understand what she is trying to do/say/whatever, but this is really a decision that is up to you, and you'd prefer to not be hassled about it. 

[Not A Toy]

        this is way more then i expected!

[Doof]

thanks jason

ill keep that in mind

[BigMike]

i have a few new questions.lets say tomorrow on national tv some man proclaims to be the son of god,was born of an imaculate conception.would he be embraced  and followed?would he be laughed at.would you laugh and dismiss him?

i think he would be labeled as a lunatic.but why?

I believe this will happen. I am sorry to bring up the Bible, but it clearly states this will happen. A False Christ. It also states that even the best theologians and best spiritual leaders will be deceived and will loose their faith,

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." - Matt. 24:24 KJV (also see Mark 13:22)

What if one Saturday I go to church and my pastor is like, "well guys, I've discovered that everything I've been preaching is completely wrong."
Crap! What a challenge that would put me in!

Which, to comment on your question....

why do christians feel the need to go to church so often? the bibles not that large a book to teach,why the never ending study?are christians just forgetfull and cant remember what the good book says ? could it be they need constant coaching to continue to believe the unbelievable?

If I do not actively practice my faith and actively ask questions concerning my faith, if a time like this happens, then I won't have any solid ground to stand my faith on. If I only went to church as a child and then "graduated" and never went back, with the changing world full of temptations, it is impossible for me to remain a Christian. It is Christ who gives me the strength to holdfast my faith and values against the changing world (see Philippians 4:13).


How about this question, and I ask this to both believers and non-believers alike: What if tomorrow morning your decease (enter family member or very close friend here) Mother or grandpa or best friend who has already died, what if they knocked on your door tomorrow morning while you are eating breakfast. He/she looks just like that person, he/she sounds just like that person, and he/she has all the same memories as far as you are concerned. 100% convincing that the person is really your passed friend! And this person says "!! Hey! It's great to see you! I am visiting from Heaven and I only have a short amount of time! I've gotta tell you about some exciting things that are about to happen! The Bible is fake, the Catholics are absolutely correct, and you need to read this new book I got from heaven!"

What would you do? If your faith was lacking, or you have no faith, then you would have no reason not to believe that that really was your aunt or your uncle, or best friend who died in a plane crash a decade ago, etc. And you would be on the 10 oclock news holding your new book, and there would be plenty of pictures of the two of you spending time together at your house, and it would be so amazing and wouldn't you agree that many, many people in the world would believe that it was true?

Now what if this started happening all over the place all at the same time, like suddenly there are 500 news stories from all over the world that are exactly the same.

Listen, some people say "oh don't put God in a box, stop limiting him" and I say "don't put satan in a box!" Satan was the #3 angle in heaven, #3 in command and rank. For certain he is amongst the most intelligent being in the universe. Remember he convinced 1/3 of the angels in heaven to rebel against God's government. Don't you think he has a master plan that will be possible to deceive the entire world, including atheists?


And then what happens when we find our world at this state? With all the warnings the Bible has given for this, I hope you would consider the Word of God to be more than just "some old book".

[twistedtoy92]

all i can say on this subject is that i truely believe in GOD and i ALWAYS will!!!! I've been in some pretty scary/crazy situations and that was where i felt the presence of GOD!! I was in a high speed rollover and almost didnt make it to be 18 and graduate high school!! my buddy had always questioned GOD and everything that goes along with Faith.... he was lost, big time!!! well to get tto the main point before i write 3 page novel......... he had a suspended license (rebelious) and we went out for a cruise in his moms dodge caravan, feelin pretty good to say the least!! got way out to the west side of the slope on gravel roads, at that point he was averaging 60-70 and my two buddies in the back and i looked at eachother and put our seat belts on... you know that really earry feeling before something horrible happens?? well that was gut right there!! we turned around to head back down this hill and he got er up to 75 and said in a jokingful manner, lets jump the bridge!! we laughed and looked at eachother thinking that he was joking and thats when all hell broke loose!!! launched off this concrete slap of a bridge through an intersectoin and nose dive right into the perpendicular road....... air bag knocked me batty for a second then we rolled 6 times and came to rest on the wheels.... during that roll i swear it felt like God was holding me and my other two buddies in place.... the driver was ejected from the car and we rolled over the top of him in between the first and second roll!!! he was about 60 feet behind the van face down in the dirt, when i got to him he turned his head and screamed OH MY GOD and coughed up blood.... he was paralyzed from the mid stomach down....... so he know straightened his out and is in a wheel chair going through rehab to gain feeling in his legs...... the other two in the back had minor cuts on their hands from glass/whiplash and i had a broken noise,glass in my hands and a chunk in my foot and whiplash from hell!!! thats the point where i KNEW God was the ONLY reason that i am still here today... ive done lots of crazy stuff but God and I are on GOOD terms!!  But like i've seen lots of people say already, it is EXTREMELY hard to change someones established beliefs because they have been IMPRINTED on their brains from day one!!!!! i'll tell you what though, nobody is EVER going to change my mind!! way toooo many things to have happened to say otherwise

[Hammerhead]

My conversion was not a violent one like yours but it was every bit as real. 

Once you have been touched by the Spirit of God or the Holy Ghost it is near impossible to deny. 

Hold on to that testimony and keep it dear to your heart.