Topic: NO POWER!

[rexandfx]

Hello everyone, obvious nOoB here.

Ok here's the deal, 1986 runner, turbo, Auto, stock.185K
with rebuilt head and new main and rod bearings

I have a long, bumpy driveway. after about halfway down it at 10 mph,
when the engine reachees normal operating temp. Something happens and
it acts like it has a ton of back pressure or something . and then I
have to fight to get to 4-5 mph .

Once of the street, It takes about 10 seconds to get up to like 25-30
then as you keep the thottle buried, it smooths out after a bit.

It has power after that, Not perfect by any means, but bareable. any
clues??

  Thanks in advance, Rex

Until then I'll be over in the search section looking for similar problems

[toyrolet]

Check into the Catylitic converter.  It might be plugged and not allowing the exhaust to get out.  you could disconnect the cat between the header and the cat to diagnose it if it runs great then there is your problem.  Beware it will be really loud so try and stay away from the Police station.

[rexandfx [OP]]

I had that off a few days ago to look at it and it's straight through...so there would be no blockage eh?

I'll try running it with it off and see what that does I guess

[91 super yoda]

ive said it before and ill say it again, toyota has a problem with the mass air flow going out at weird times and in different occurances. i had all kinds of trouble out of my motor that i dont have enough time to describe, but anytime somebody has a problem to what you are explaining the maf is the first place that i tell them to look. i had to replace it on my 91 and on my 94 and heard of quite a few other ppl replacing them on here as well for many different reasons.

[rexandfx [OP]]

so the afm goes out gradually? thats why it has power some times? and not at others?   just asking.

[toyrolet]

yes it makes sense as to what was said.  I have one (maf) if you need it because i V8ed my runner which is also an 86 auto.  Ran great till bottomend gaveup.

[BigMike]

The AFM is pretty simple to check, just swap in a known good used one or something, but I wouldn't assume that right-a-way as your primary problem here..

Your 4Runner has that all-digital instrument cluster, right?

I drove a Turbo Auto 4Runner, and it was the slowest 4Runner I've ever driven. According to the digital LEDs that indicate how much boost is being used, just to cruise at 50 in the city, it would light up all but the last LED, and on the freeway in 5th gear Drive above 60 MPH, it was full boost.

Out of couriosity, what is your boost reading at 60 MPH in 5th?

What is your tire size and axle gear combination? Approx. weight of your 4Runner? Do you know what your gas mileage is at recently? 12 MPG or less?

I don't know what all goes on with the ECT, but I wonder if it would help to reset the whole system, or swap out the ECT brain with another one? What do the Autos use for the kick down (oil pressure I guess? Not cable?)

BTW, what gear is the tranny in when you are fighting to get to 4-5 mph? Could it be in 2nd or even 3rd? That's why I am courious about the ECT, I just don't know enough about it...........

Also, do you know how to check for any ECU trouble codes, and if so, does it report any?

[rexandfx [OP]]

yes-digital cluster

yes this is my second turbo runner and they are gutless, my other one would hit 105 though
this couldn't have a wet dream of doing that.

I don't have fifth due to the auto. but at 60 and cruising flat ground some time it fights and can't reach it and some times it cruises with 2 to 3 bars of boost. I have taken it on several 100 mile trips to test it.

It's all stock tire size and axle and gear setup. It's right at 12 mpg and less when it decides it doesn't want to go.My other runner got about 16 mpg or so but it had a toyota crate engine and brand new turbo, all installed by Toyota. It would on occasion peel the rubber off the new (31x10.50's).

I'm assuming it's a cable as mine has 2 cables going to the throttle body. It kicks down just fine. It has a normal and power mode, I have to drive in power mode so that when it decides to hate me, I can bury the throttle and shift down quicker.

It seems like it's in first, could be going to second I guess, sometimes It shifts so smooth I can't tell.

I know how to check codes, and have, none have appeared.

AND one more thing....I know there are some vacuum hoses wrong I routed the main lines as according to the chilton but there are many others that are not right I'm sure. I can't find any other runner's to take pictures of or anything on the web either....sighh

thanks a ton for your time......Rex

[IronClad]

go shake your muffler..   you said your cat was straight through.. where did all that go ?   right into the muffler..  could be a simple banana in the tail pipe syndrome..  all that crapin the cat is now blocking your exhaust in the muffler..  id check it out.. 

[brainlessfool]

mite want to check the turbo too. it should be very free spinning. if you spin it by hand it should spin many times around, if it goes 5-6? times around it may have junk on the bearings.
that will way slow it down and give you the feeling of massive back presser. and make it gut less.
just some thing to look at. 

[rexandfx [OP]]

I'll check  the turbo..

I replaced the muffler, so that isn't it. I think it was routed out before I bought it
 
I was just out messing with it and the Block is an 85-95 22R And when I replaced the main bearings and rod bearings I was thinking the pistons might be 22r pistons also? and that would give me too much compression.

I took the head off today to look at it, and it looked like a 22re which I would assume has smaller valve ports. That would be a huge problem there huh?

[rexandfx [OP]]

If thats true would it be better to just rering and gaskets,  rip off that turbo and run my 22r hedmann header I have?

[BigMike]

I don't have fifth due to the auto.

<-- BigMike

It's all stock tire size and axle and gear setup. It's right at 12 mpg and less when it decides it doesn't want to go.

wow. really. you've got something much more serious than the afm then. The Auto 4Runner I drove was on 35s and had axle braces and dual shocks at each corner, it was a massive pig. And it drove like garbage, and I am sure it was making well below 13mpg..

I know there are some vacuum hoses wrong I routed the main lines as according to the chilton but there are many others that are not right I'm sure.

Well, worst cases, you could have the fuel pres. regulator on a constant vacuum (in front of the tb), you could have the VDD hooked up to a constant vacuum which would have the front end engaged at all times eventhough the t/case is in 2WD and that would add an extra load to the engine, and then there's the boost regulator (waste gate). If you had a constant vacuum line in the low side of the diaphragm, then it could encourage the gate to open sooner, and what you think is peak boost, could really only be 2 or 3 psi?

But really, if its sluggish below 10mph, then I wouldn't assume its a peak boost issue at all. Either the Turbo is not spooling properly, or you could have the low fuel press. issue, which, combined with a bad fuel pump, could cause that.

What did the spark plugs look like? Were they coated in black? A Light White color? Or the normal Tan color? Any pits on the ceramic or ground of each plug? Any tip rounded out on one side and not the other?


Good luck rex!! If I were to remove the Turbo, then I wouldn't keep the Auto (unless thats causing the problem here and could be fixed and improved). A 22R-E in a 4Runner with an Auto, doesn't sound like much fun to me..... I've driven 3.slow Auto 4Runners and even then, I was sent back into time.

[rexandfx [OP]]

you could have the VDD hooked up to a constant vacuum which would have the front end engaged at all times eventhough the t/case is in 2WD and that would add an extra load to the engine, and then there's the boost regulator (waste gate).

Not if it is manual hubs right?

I really only to a small amount of wheeling in it, and camping. I don't need it to be fast really,  just enough to churn the 33's that'll be on it eventually. (It'll be my wifes Anywayz).  My trail toy is the full size Cherokee.

I really think is a major vacuum line as you suggested. It may be a combination of things. It has really been worked over, (In a bad way) by the previous owners.

I am gonna take a pic or 2 of a couple things and see if you can tell whaat and how to adjust them...my manual says nothing about them.

Thanks again for your input and time.

[BigMike]

Not if it is manual hubs right?

In that case, then no, nothing would happen..


I will look around for a pic or diagram of the vacuum lines for a 22R-E and a 22R-TE, that would be a big help!

Does anyone have an image of that??

[rexandfx [OP]]

Can anyone tell me what these adjustments are..I have had various answers

[BigMike]

The Blue one is to control the A/C Idle Up Speed, and the Purple one controls your "base" idle, which should be 800rpm

[rexandfx [OP]]

Ok, thanks Mike.

I failed to mention this earlier but there is a major unburned fuel smell at all times in the exhaust.
Is there any mixture adjustments?

I replaced the O2 sensor , and I wasn't sure if that helped any, but it seemed to a little.

Another thing is. The truck will start right up after sitting overnight. But right after that, if you shut it off it is a PITA   to get going again, like it fires then dies immeditely for at least 5-6 times then it will fire and barely run. When you touch the gas peddle it will smooth right out and idle perfect.?

I am starting to feel bad that I even posted about this major headache truck of mine. 

[trevinotrek]

use your chilton to pull the codes off your ecm  my 86 non turbo 22re did this after a timing chain change It ended up the distributor (sp) was put in slightly off and would start fine but lack power due to timing being slightly off. when in drive with the brake held down what RPM are you at should hold @800-900 .

[79coyotefrg]

raw fuel smell,    you my friend have a roasted turbo,   i bet when you take it off you will have bits of ceramic  and some bearings fall out,  every turbo engine ive seen fail because of the turbo  was doing exactly what you are describing


dont go with the stock turbo,       i think LC engineering runs Garrett T3/T4 hybrid turbos,  more boost for less exhaust, there by pumping your boost,    then mod the afm  and hold on

[79coyotefrg]

also check your cat and header for pieces of ceramic from the inside of the turbo

[BigMike]

Especially if the engine is dumping raw fuel out the exhaust, the fuel will be burning as it travels through the turbo manifold, the turbo, and a short distance out the down pipe. That would cook a Turbo in a matter of minuets. Especially with the stock CT20, which is non-oil cooled, it is vital that you always let the engine idle for atleast 30 secs every time before turning the engine off to give the turbo a chance to cool down.


Well, you could start by checking your timing. Then look into problems that would cause a weak ignition system. Check your rotor and cap, plug wires, get some better plugs, etc.

As for adjustments, yes there are a couple things to do, and they are both related to the AFM. I don't have any pictures of it, but If you look at your AFM, there is an identical screw on the side of it, just like the one in the above picture circled purple on the side of the throttle body. If you do not see the screw, but instead, see a flat spot that looks like it "could" have been there, well that's still it.

I've seen AFMs where this screw is accessable (not capped) and I've seen AFMs where this screw is just below about 1/8" of aluminum that is covering the adjustment screw.

In the latter case, if you don't see an exposed adjustment screw on your air box, but instead see what looks like a flat surface where it seems it was an "option", then do the following: Take a drill bit about the size of a small pocket screw driver, what, like a 3/16" or so? and start drilling right at the center of this "dummy" block off flat spot. After about 1/8" of drilling, slow down and use less pressure as the drill breaks into a secret underground cavity, where inside, is an adjustment set screw.

Then use your flat head pocket screw driver, and start experimenting with this adjustment.

BTW, do you live in CA? What are your smog laws?

What this screw adjusts is the amount it air that is bypassed through the AFM. In other words, you can control, to a small degree, how much air can get into the engine without the computer "seeing" it. So you can directly alter the fuel mixture by increasing the amount of air bypassing the AFM box (turn set screw counterclockwise, will cause a more lean condition), or by decreasing the amount of air bypassing the AFM (turn clockwise, will cause rich condition).

Now, it is my understanding that on vehicles past about 1986+, this set screw is typically unaccessible, "capped" off. Apparently, this AFM bypassing feature is set to some default value at the factory, and then they plug off or cap of the screw so now one plays with it. That's because this has a HUGE affect on your trucks emissions. I've seen guys fail horribly at the smog station, and then Marlin's told them to turn the screw out like 'just' 1/2 turn or so, and they've gone back in and barely passed, or what ever.. So having this control over the fuel mixture beyond what the ECU is doing, is great.

Also, you can do the age-old AFM trick, see my post here: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=15103.msg166350#msg166350
It's reply #10.

This is typically done to richen up the engine to gain a bit of performance, but in your case, you would want to do the opposite, however, especially with a Turbo, I would stray away from inducing a lean condition, and instead, I would first focus on why the fuel is not getting burned. Detonation is a killer, yet alone Detonation + Boost, which is an exponential killer!

How does your EGR valve look? Is it plugged up at all?

hmmmmmmmm..........

Well, one thing you could try about the starting issue, is check the adjustment on your TPS. I doubt this is the problem, but its not hard to check at all, and unless the TPS is showing an "idle" condition while cranking, it will become more difficult for the engine to start.

If your Turbo is bad, it shouldn't have much of an affect on your fuel mixture. This should be something else related to your ignition system....... Also, since you are not sure about the vacuum lines, maybe your fuel pressure regulator is hooked up to a boost-vacuum source, so under any throttle %, whenever you've got any boost, you've immediately got 100% fuel rail pressure if the boost is reaching the fuel pres. regulator, and since Toyota didn't indend for this to happen, the ECU is not programmed for an excess of fuel pressure, so it would run as if you had slightly oversized injectors in there, just allowing more gas to be dumped in than normal.

Good Luck and keep the questions coming!!
BigMike

[rexandfx [OP]]

I live in Oregon ...I am registered outside of emission..so I am not concerned about any of that..

I hooked up a vaccumed line to my egr valve and engine stalled immediately so the egr is good.

I need to find out where the vacuum line needs to run from the end of the fuel rail. I think that is a big issue.

I am sure the turbo is getting worn out..But I have a feeling that isn't the main issue here.

I'll see if I can get my cousin's multi meter over here and adjust that TPS.

Oh and the plug wires, cap, and rotor are new. The plugs have about 1k miles on them just bosch platinums.

1 more thing the idle speed should be set while in drive correct?

[BigMike]

The book calls for the idle to be set @ 800 rpm in Park.

The vacuum line for the fuel pressure regulator that mounts to the fuel rail, should be hooked up to the intake manifold plenum. It needs to see vacuum at an idle, and boost under WOT, I *believe*

[rexandfx [OP]]

Ok, I have been tinkering with it all day.

And a half a tank of gas later...(which to you who have been following my thread, is about 20 miles or so     )

I am going to try and pull off the turbo tomorrow, or today rather and take a look at it. I think that is the issue.

I don't know enough about turbo's, but why would they provide adequate boost sometimes and not at others?

Could it be possibly the wastegate not fuctioning properly?

[BigMike]

I took the head off today to look at it

So you already took the head off and put it all back together, wow Nice work man How did the valves look? Any discoloring, like were some a lighter tan and then a couple were a darker brown? Just curious because that's an easy way to detect a leaking valve..

What brand headgasket did you use when you threw it back on?

And a half a tank of gas later...(which to you who have been following my thread, is about 20 miles or so )

That's funny, but I feel your pain. At least gas near my house has dropper nearly 40 cents in the past two months. We are down to 2.70 a gal now. I haven't seen it this low since last winter.

I don't know enough about turbo's, but why would they provide adequate boost sometimes and not at others?

Could it be possibly the wastegate not fuctioning properly?

The waste gate just controls where the Turbo is peaking, so if it is dumping all the boost out really soon, then yes, it maybe could limit the peak boost to like 2psi..

As for better peak boost at different times, again, this seems like an ignition problem. On my buddies 22R-TE with an aftermarket Garret Turbo, his truck had developed a rough idle and would not start at times. We found out that his dist. cap was cracked, the rotor was really worn down, and I got zapped while fiddling with his #2 spark plug wire. So he dished out some bucks and replaced those parts, and just like that his peak boost went up from 4psi to 6psi.

I remember that on my Supercharged MR2, with the SC, I would always have the same peak boost, but not always the same peak power. If I layed into it slowly, then it would power well, but if I jumped into the throttle, then it just didn't have the same kick. Later I upgraded my plug wires to some Nologys and and experimented with different plug gaping, and then I was able to get the same power under all conditions.

And according to my MSD knock sensor, it was never detonating, it just wasn't burning the fuel correctly, and this is even more the case with the Turbo, since proper exhaust velocities are needed to spool the Turbo, and if the exhaust is heavier with unburned fuel in it, or its continuously changing from a lean and then to a rich condition, then the Turbo would have different spooling characteristics.

Well, this is all in my head, and I really have no clue what this means in actual reality, but it was what I was thinking about

Cya
BigMike

[rexandfx [OP]]

The valves looked great the head was new when I bought the truck.The plugs looked great too....Nice and tan

I used the felpro, I have had good luck with those.

All that stuff is new on mine...I'll check the rotor I may have overlooked that....there are no vacuum lines going to my turbo or components..and no ports on it for them.  Am I missing something?

Before I go  mssing with that turbo, I'd like to check the Tps and AFM.

Do you know what my truck would act like if the fuel pump was going out?,

[rexandfx [OP]]

well, but then again there is that unburned fuel....sighh...I dunno..

Thanks guys, for the help.  

[79coyotefrg]

the stock turbo doesnt have a oil cooling, omg     GARRETT BABY 

im thinking the  garret t3 exhaust side with the t4 cold side ,  more boost for lower exhaust output,  it will give you a serious kick in the pants

[BigMike]

Yup, the stock C20 has water cooling, but not oil cooling.

Usually the first symptom of a bad fuel pump is hard starts. But this could also be a plugged fuel filter, which, making all of this tech look silly, could be the problem. Hey Glen, why didn't we think about the fuel filter!?!?

Ummm. BTW, How old is your fuel filter? If that baby's plugged, then it would run like garbage