Topic: Annoying Orange, 20r Build for the 1980 Pickup

[H8PVMNT]

I happen to have an endless supply of beeswax!

[helipilot77]

When that doesn’t work, put this setup together and in the morning the bolt will be gone.

[THK Matt]

"Focus you F*&^"

[H8PVMNT [OP]]

Got my oil pickup on there, finished cleaning the oil pan.  Got the rear main thing on around the engine stand with some difficulty.  It's hard to get on with the engine on the stand. I had to take off one of the mounting arms.

Installed with Toyota black on the block and pan with the cork gasket from the craigslist find topline gasket kit.  I don't know if topline is worth a hoot but the pan gasket was really thick! Torqued the pan bolts to about 5 lbs.

[H8PVMNT [OP]]

Also set valve lash to .007" and .010" per Jim's instructions.  Will be readjusting hot after first run.

All that took me about 2 hours this morning.

Total time:  38.5 Hours

[redneckcustoms13]

Braver man than I. When it comes to an oil pan I load that thing down with rtv, no gasket. Something about a bolt mounted vertically that will fall on the ground and never been seen gain that is only torqued to 5 ftlbs and is responsible for holding all of the oil in the engine isn't something I'm fond of. Sure some engineer much smarter than I did calculations that say it works. I'm not risking it.

[300k]

-snip-

So then what are your thoughts on the drain plug

[H8PVMNT [OP]]

Braver man than I. When it comes to an oil pan I load that thing down with rtv, no gasket. Something about a bolt mounted vertically that will fall on the ground and never been seen gain that is only torqued to 5 ftlbs and is responsible for holding all of the oil in the engine isn't something I'm fond of. Sure some engineer much smarter than I did calculations that say it works. I'm not risking it.

I have had pretty good success with greased up cork gaskets only, until you open it up the first time, then they start to leak.  This time I used both.  We will see how it does. I guess the 5 lbs is because if you squish the gasket much at all it will cause a leak.  I'll tell ya what you really have to use a tool for the 5 lbs.  A twist on the 3/8 ratchet is probably 10.

[redneckcustoms13]

So then what are your thoughts on the drain plug

Drain plug? I've never torqued a drain plug. Put it till it's tight and call it happy. I'm not racing to drain my oil. I don't live in an extremely cold environment so drain time isn't a factor.

[Gnarly4X]

OMG!  Cork gasket on oil pan.... MAJOR boo-boo!! 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

If I told my wife that it is too hot in the garage, "I need to rebuild my engine next to the fireplace in the family room"... she would call the paramedics because I'd be bleeding profusely somewhere around my face and scalp!

Gnarls.

[300k]

If I told my wife that it is too hot in the garage, "I need to rebuild my engine next to the fireplace in the family room"... she would call the paramedics because I'd be bleeding profusely somewhere around my face and scalp!

Gnarls.

The funniest part is, it's not in the living room. From the pics it looks like it's smack dab in the doorway to the kitchen. I'd be exiled from the house LOL

[redneckcustoms13]

I built a samurai motor in the kitchen of my mom's house when I was a kid. Built a t case on her counter and cleaned the case halves in her dishwasher. She was pissed to say the least.

[H8PVMNT [OP]]

If I told my wife that it is too hot in the garage, "I need to rebuild my engine next to the fireplace in the family room"... she would call the paramedics because I'd be bleeding profusely somewhere around my face and scalp!

Gnarls.

She puts up with a lot .

[Slabzilla]

Your wife is a saint for allowing you to do that work in the kitchen.  I've always used the cork gasket and a small amount of red RTV.  I don't torque the bolts, I just cinch them down just until the cork just starts to bulge and I've never had a leak the life of the gasket.  I check the pan for "Knucklehead" over tightening and straighten the pan flange, clean both pan and block to perfection and go for it. You method should be pretty leak free.   

[emsvitil]

I ultra-black the cork gasket to the pan.    Lay down some plastic wrap on the ground.   

Then put pan, ultra-black, gasket on plastic wrap; add some weight to pan and let sit overnight.

Then next day ultra-black the gasket and put on engine.     Never had a leak doing that.    Letting the ultra-black dry overnight with the first step prevents the gasket from squeezing out when installing on engine.

[Mudder]

OMG!  Cork gasket on oil pan.... MAJOR boo-boo!! 

Gnarls.

The older pans had an outward bump for sealing the pan with a cork gasket while the newer ones has a dimple for the rtv.

[Gnarly4X]

I have not had good luck with cork gaskets, transmission pans and oil pans.  I've tried the RTV overnight trick.  The cork seems to shrink, and the oil makes it slippery and it squishes out around the bolts... LEAKS... I HATE LEAKS! 

I won't use cork gaskets anymore. 

That's just my experience. 

Gnarls. 

[kneedownnate]

Never had good luck with cork gaskets.  We used them on the old iron dukes in the boats I used to work on and they would typically leak by the end of the first season or early into the next.  They also had rubber gaskets available but our rebuilder stopped using them, despite the fact that they often lasted a few seasons or more

[Mudder]

I've fallen in love with rubber gaskets. Running them on the valve covers of my 460 and they've last 5 or 6 removals and never leaked.

[H8PVMNT [OP]]

Here's what I have had happen.  When I have used RVT only, I inevitably have to drop the pan before my next rebuild.  Then I have such a tough time getting the pan off it's ridiculous.  I could never get the second time around clean enough for the RVT not to leak after replacing the pan.  Time after that I used a cork gasket with ultra-black on both sides. That never leaked and I sold the truck after about a year and a half.   

The next time I tried a dry cork gasket just for kicks, and yes, leaks in maybe 4 or 5 months.  Not terrible but irritating. So on then on the 22r build I tried a cork gasket slathered with some grease, torqued carefully so as not to squish the gasket.  This never leaked until I had to drop the pan to get cam gear shrapnel out of the pan. It came off easy which was nice.  I put on a fresh cork with some grease but this was a field fix so cleanliness was compromised so it did leak after this.  Not bad, but still irritating.

When I did my head gasket I used "the right stuff" on the pan side of the cork gasket and nothing on the block side so it would seal one surface but still come off easy.  This leaked a little bit.  It came off easy though and last night I cleaned it off and put a bit of Toyota black on the block side and intalled it on Caleb's truck for a quick fix of a smahed pan.  This is kind of the advantage of the cork, you can take it on and off as long as the gasket hasn't ripped.  Less than ideal sealing, but great for the emergency field fix.

This time around on the 20r I chose the cork with the Toyota black on both sides because it yielded pretty good performance in the past and it is easily removable later on. Also I wanted to use the early pan with the big drain plug, which has the protrusion in the middle made for a cork gasket.  The later pan had a flat flange with a recess in the middle designed for RVT.  I don't think the early pan would work as well with just RVT unless you used emsvitil's method above. There just isn't  enough surface area of the flange for the RVT unless you really built it up.

My personal conclusions are this:

#1 best is probably RVT, Toyota black or other comparable, with crazy clean surfaces, on the later style flat flange pan designed for RVT, but it's a pain in the rear to get the pan off.

#2 based on my experience is the cork with sealer on both sides for the early pan designed for a gasket.  Not quite as sealed as RVT but works good on the early pan and comes off easy later for timing chain or HG jobs and the odd emergency field fix.

#3 the greased up cork, carefully torqued.  If surfaces are clean it works pretty well, can be disassembled and re-assembled in a pinch. Pretty much guaranteed to leak a little after disturbing it though.



I suspect the best method is the one described by emsvitil, where you let the RVT set up on the pan the day before so it doesn't squish out and then apply a bit more to install. When I have had RVT leak a lot, it was because I didn't let it tack up enough and I applied too much twist on the bolts so it sweezed the RVT out of the flange.  That and oily surfaces...

If I have the time I may take the pan off and try this one after all.   

One question:  does anyone make a rubber pan gasket for the 22r?  That would be the best of both worlds I would think.



I don't want to tangent off too much more but I think this is some valuable tech so I am going to run it.

[redneckcustoms13]

Sorry I started that.

[H8PVMNT [OP]]

Sorry I started that.

It's cool . I think its valuable to talk about what works and what doesn't. A lot of actual experiences were discussed.

[Gnarly4X]

Sorry I started that.

redneckcustoms13,


You don’t have to apologize.

If an OP starts a thread and wants specific words, phrases, topic answers, or any other specific and restricted posts and discussion, then they need to state that up front.

It’s totally absurd - and I’ve never seen it - to think an automotive site thread, or practically any other public forum, does NOT have many many tangential posts, opinions, questions, answers, experiences, debates, and every other form of discourse common where human communicate!!  Those discussions are almost ALWAYS the very best and filled with lots of information and shared experiences and knowledge.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Here's what I have had happen.  When I have used RVT only, I inevitably have to drop the pan before my next rebuild.  Then I have such a tough time getting the pan off it's ridiculous.  I could never get the second time around clean enough for the RVT not to leak after replacing the pan.  Time after that I used a cork gasket with ultra-black on both sides. That never leaked and I sold the truck after about a year and a half.   

The next time I tried a dry cork gasket just for kicks, and yes, leaks in maybe 4 or 5 months.  Not terrible but irritating. So on then on the 22r build I tried a cork gasket slathered with some grease, torqued carefully so as not to squish the gasket.  This never leaked until I had to drop the pan to get cam gear shrapnel out of the pan. It came off easy which was nice.  I put on a fresh cork with some grease but this was a field fix so cleanliness was compromised so it did leak after this.  Not bad, but still irritating.

When I did my head gasket I used "the right stuff" on the pan side of the cork gasket and nothing on the block side so it would seal one surface but still come off easy.  This leaked a little bit.  It came off easy though and last night I cleaned it off and put a bit of Toyota black on the block side and intalled it on Caleb's truck for a quick fix of a smahed pan.  This is kind of the advantage of the cork, you can take it on and off as long as the gasket hasn't ripped.  Less than ideal sealing, but great for the emergency field fix.

This time around on the 20r I chose the cork with the Toyota black on both sides because it yielded pretty good performance in the past and it is easily removable later on. Also I wanted to use the early pan with the big drain plug, which has the protrusion in the middle made for a cork gasket.  The later pan had a flat flange with a recess in the middle designed for RVT.  I don't think the early pan would work as well with just RVT unless you used emsvitil's method above. There just isn't  enough surface area of the flange for the RVT unless you really built it up.

My personal conclusions are this:

#1 best is probably RVT, Toyota black or other comparable, with crazy clean surfaces, on the later style flat flange pan designed for RVT, but it's a pain in the rear to get the pan off.

#2 based on my experience is the cork with sealer on both sides for the early pan designed for a gasket.  Not quite as sealed as RVT but works good on the early pan and comes off easy later for timing chain or HG jobs and the odd emergency field fix.

#3 the greased up cork, carefully torqued.  If surfaces are clean it works pretty well, can be disassembled and re-assembled in a pinch. Pretty much guaranteed to leak a little after disturbing it though.



I suspect the best method is the one described by emsvitil, where you let the RVT set up on the pan the day before so it doesn't squish out and then apply a bit more to install. When I have had RVT leak a lot, it was because I didn't let it tack up enough and I applied too much twist on the bolts so it sweezed the RVT out of the flange.  That and oily surfaces...

If I have the time I may take the pan off and try this one after all.   

One question:  does anyone make a rubber pan gasket for the 22r?  That would be the best of both worlds I would think.



I don't want to tangent off too much more but I think this is some valuable tech so I am going to run it.

Speaking of "pomp 'n stink" !!!! 

Gnarls. 

[H8PVMNT [OP]]

Yeah but this is what I have had happen, not purely speculation.  OK a little speculation based on what other guys have had happen .

[H8PVMNT [OP]]

 ...lots of information and shared experiences and knowledge.

That right there is the valuable part. That's why I went ahead with the pan sealing tangent. The opinion and detailed discussions about things that don't pertain, tangents of tangents, not so much.  I have been guilty of this many times. I have seen many threads with 2 pages of good tech and 15 pages of pure tongue wagging. Some threads should be more disciplined than others, depending on what the OP intends for the reader.

That's my tangent opinion.   

So along that line, thanks for posting your experiences with cork gaskets and RVT.  That almost deserves it's own thread.

Here it is...  http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=102664.new#new

[H8PVMNT [OP]]

Cleaned up a valve cover than still says 20r on it and buttoned it up with the DNJ valve cover gasket set with some Toyota black FIPG on the half moons. This took less than an hour.  Accidently deleted the associated photos.

We are getting ready for a short trip to a warmer climate, just as winter finally hit the fan.  I didn't want to come home to an engine stand in the kitchen so I wheeled it out on the porch, rolled it down the steps into Caleb's Toyota and crawled it over to the hoist.  It started snowing a lot last night so I bagged everything up.  We will drop it in after we get back from vacation.  That will probably be in my current truck thread:  http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=102594.0

So to answer the intended questions of how many hours does it take to build a 20r/22r and how much $$ for the cheapo budget rebuild...

It was a combination if cleaning, finding, measuring, disassembly and assembly, which I will break down into categories the future but I was into this about 39.5 hours and with a TON of creative trading, craigslisting, scrounging and salvaging this re-build cost $492.71.  It should be mentioned that I erred on the side of cheap where I thought I could get away with it.  There is nothing exotic except for the 22re Performance 282 cam and valve springs, which I traded for.

So I would say about 40 hours and $500 would be possible for most guys with a shed full of old parts to draw from.  Of course circumstances will vary depending on resources and how much has to be machined.  I really lucked out on the usable standard crank and the un-warped head.  I took more time and less money than most probably would.  It certainly took longer than I expected, but it was cheaper than I thought too.  Surely somebody will be way faster and somebody will take way longer.  Some builds may cost $5K and sombody might just be into a gasket set and be up and running.

I was doing this 2 hours at a time while living life, in adverse conditions.  I think it would be faster if tackled on a weekend or two focused on the engine only, certainly faster the more clean, fresh parts you have to use, but then cost would go up.

Anyway this is what it took for me to build this particular cheap 20r long block.r

When I get the engine broken in and dialed we will see how the cammed up 20r performs in comparison the the 20r/22r hybrid I was running before.

 

[Slabzilla]

Great job, good details.  looking forward to seeing your results and seeing it run for you.     Really liked your pan gasket explanations, nicely put.

[Gnarly4X]

...
When I get the engine broken in and dialed we will see how the cammed up 20r performs in comparison the the 20r/22r hybrid I was running before.    

H8PVMNT,

First, I commend you for your incredible persistence and scrounging ingenuity!... and in adverse conditions!

If you had not documented your project so well, I might have had trouble believing it. 

You are testimony to the power of the human will and perhaps a new level of engine-building-frugal-ness!! 

I’m very anxious to read about your engine break-in and after you do your tweaking. 

If I get a chance to get to Highwood, MT, I’m going to buy you and family a nice dinner!!   .....

If you get a chance to make it near Casa Grand, AZ… .breakfast, lunch, or dinner is on ME.     ......

.....IF.... I get to go for a ride in your hot-rod!! 

Gnarls.