Topic: Common approach to lengthening front driveshaft

[jmac80]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but the DS ear at the CV should be in alignment with the u-joint ear on the other end of the shaft, not the flange.   

I don't think the bolt patterns is the same.  I've got a l50 or l52 trannny w/ top shift case.  I think you've got a w-series in there and the pattern is different.

Can someone confirm this?

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but the DS ear at the CV should be in alignment with the u-joint ear on the other end of the shaft, not the flange.   

Yeah it was about at 30/60 phase when I pulled it out......somebody didn't know what they were doing.

I would get a quote from Jesse at High Angle and see how they compare. I don't remember how much mine cost but $500 doesn't sound too horrible if memory serves.

You could also contact www.yotayard.com.

I'll look around and report back.  Thanks, blackdiamond, you've been very helpful with this.

[blackdiamond]

The 30/60 alignment may have caused the wear/damage.

You're welcome for the help. I am not much of a mechanic but can sometimes ask good questions to narrow the possible issues.

[jmac80 [OP]]

The 30/60 alignment may have caused the wear/damage.

You're welcome for the help. I am not much of a mechanic but can sometimes ask good questions to narrow the possible issues.

Maybe it did cause the damage.....but as little as 4WD seems to have been used and low speeds typically associated with it, my vote is poor maintenance. I greased everything after doing the axles and it didn't look like anyone had done it in a while. I probably screwed it up using 4WD occasionally off the last 8 months or so without grease.  But you may be right....I'm 0 for 2 after buying axles for no reason and trying to argue with you on DS.

Left Jessy a message at High Angle and put in a part quote request with the CO yotayard outfit. Additionally with OCD making his generous offer, I'll have some options to weigh out.

With the CV being out, may also need to consider a whole new shaft all together.

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[OCD]

I don't think the bolt patterns is the same.  I've got a l50 or l52 trannny w/ top shift case.  I think you've got a w-series in there and the pattern is different.

Can someone confirm this?

Was actually an R series (R151F) I pulled out of there, but your prob right about the flanges not matching up  You are welcome to the flanges off the t-case too if that helps. I have no need for these parts and am only a couple weeks from scrapping what's left of this truck...

[jmac80 [OP]]

Was actually an R series (R151F) I pulled out of there, but your prob right about the flanges not matching up  You are welcome to the flanges off the t-case too if that helps. I have no need for these parts and am only a couple weeks from scrapping what's left of this truck...

Is flange on the differential still there too?

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[jmac80 [OP]]

Alright folks here we go with all the feedback....

$500 - shop in San Leandro, convert the whole thing over to Spicer

$400 - High Angle shop, stay Toyota but switch to 2nd gen flange pattern on x-case output and diff input (Jesse did not seem confident in 1st gen DS design and recommended using 2nd gen style.  He also recommended against Spicer set-up saying he's had bad luck with that approach)

$150 - yotayard.com, used, bolt up and ready to go

$20 in gas to drive 45 min to South Bay and visit OCD - used and potential flange bolt hole pattern issue

What's everybody's vote?  I'm leaning towards OCD if he's got both flanges  , else I'm torn between High Angle and yotayard.  Bolt up and ready to go is attractive compared to having to remove both pinion nuts and drilling out the old flanges, but nice and new sounds good too.....hmmm?

[mudmaster]

having to remove both pinion nuts and drilling out the old flanges[/quote]

You should be able to drill without removing the flange.

[OCD]

Is flange on the differential still there too?

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Complete rear axle is spoken for, but the front flange is still there. yours too if you want it... Can send pics tonight or tomorrow when I get back to the shop...

[jmac80 [OP]]

having to remove both pinion nuts and drilling out the old flanges

You should be able to drill without removing the flange.

Good point!  Saves time and the potential to screw up seals/pinion bearing load....thanks

Whose actually done this?  I saw a post on pirate that said you can use the old flanges....just need to rotate and redrill....is this true?

[mudmaster]

Whose actually done this?  I saw a post on pirate that said you can use the old flanges....just need to rotate and redrill....is this true?

I have done it to the diff and yes it's that simple.

[jmac80 [OP]]

Complete rear axle is spoken for, but the front flange is still there. yours too if you want it... Can send pics tonight or tomorrow when I get back to the shop...

Awesome man!  Would Sunday work for me coming down?  I could also do any weekday, but it would be late after work cause you know how  880 is between me and you in the afternoon.

[blackdiamond]

Alright folks here we go with all the feedback....

$500 - shop in San Leandro, convert the whole thing over to Spicer

$400 - High Angle shop, stay Toyota but switch to 2nd gen flange pattern on x-case output and diff input (Jesse did not seem confident in 1st gen DS design and recommended using 2nd gen style.  He also recommended against Spicer set-up saying he's had bad luck with that approach)

$150 - yotayard.com, used, bolt up and ready to go

$20 in gas to drive 45 min to South Bay and visit OCD - used and potential flange bolt hole pattern issue

What's everybody's vote?  I'm leaning towards OCD if he's got both flanges  , else I'm torn between High Angle and yotayard.  Bolt up and ready to go is attractive compared to having to remove both pinion nuts and drilling out the old flanges, but nice and new sounds good too.....hmmm?

I don't see any reason to not try the shaft offered by OCD.  You may still need to have it made longer, but that shouldn't cost that much and would also be true of anything from Yotayard.  If you ever have a need to go to a long travel from driveshaft (cross over steering, etc.) then you'd probably need to have the driveshaft modified again anyways so stick with the less expensive options for now.

[jmac80 [OP]]

If you ever have a need to go to a long travel from driveshaft (cross over steering, etc.)

Blackdiamond, please learn me a thing or two.....why would cross over steering require longer shaft?  I already have 3" lift....wouldn't that be enough?

Yotayard also corrected themselves and aren't sure if they have the old school shaft with 8mm rectangular pattern, so the cheap/bolt-up and go option may not even be there.  They have to dig through their stuff and see if they can come up with one.

[blackdiamond]

Blackdiamond, please learn me a thing or two.....why would cross over steering require longer shaft?  I already have 3" lift....wouldn't that be enough?

Yotayard also corrected themselves and aren't sure if they have the old school shaft with 8mm rectangular pattern, so the cheap/bolt-up and go option may not even be there.  They have to dig through their stuff and see if they can come up with one.

I think with your current push-pull steering and Rough Country springs you're in a fairly similar position to when I had push-pull steering and Superlift springs on my 85 truck.  I successfully ran the stock length drive shafts.  If you further upgrade  your suspension (e.g. longer softer springs like Marlin or All Pro) to the point that you exceed your push-pull steering and have to go to cross over steering then you'll likely have enough suspension travel to need a long travel front driveshaft.

[OCD]

Awesome man!  Would Sunday work for me coming down?  I could also do any weekday, but it would be late after work cause you know how  880 is between me and you in the afternoon.

Yep, Sunday works. Just sent you a pm with my cell#...

[jmac80 [OP]]

Yep, Sunday works. Just sent you a pm with my cell#...

OCD HOOKED IT UP! Thank you so much man!

I'm hoping to get to this sometime this week and let you know how everything goes.  I looked and the companion flange on x-case, and it's a rectangle, so can't redrill that dude.  I need to drain and put new grease in x-case anyway because I had to use about a half quart of old grease w/ metal in the bottom to top off a few months back when doing the seal..... kind of embarrassing but it was late and I needed it to get to work in the morning.

I need to go buy some sockets tomorrow instead if squeezing by with SAE stuff.  Can someone confirm:

companion flange nut = 30mm
X-case drain, X-case fill, and diff fill plugs = 24mm
companion flange nut torque = 90 ft lbs...........seems like the internet gets confused about what a companion flange and what's a pinion flange

I did get some new crush washers today at the stealer on the way home, so got those.  Thanks everyone for help and info

[jmac80 [OP]]

Finally going to mess with this think some tonight when I get home.  I got side tracked last week with an impromptu brake issue....which I only got half fixed, but that's a different story.  Also, I ordered new driveshaft bolts from the stealer and when I went to pick them up yesterday and guy had gone back and changed the order to match the 8mm old style for some reason.  The paperwork looked like he forgot to order the lock washers and then looked back at my account realized past records show I have an 80 and then changed my request from the later 10mm to the older the 8mm style....needless to say I'm still waiting, but in the meantime I can change t-case grease, swap t-case flange and drill out diff flange......

....I'll post some pics tomorrow of the drilling and comment on how it went for a weekend warrior tech......wish i had those damn bolts to put the holes as I drilled them.  Drilling holes at size X....10.08mm (shaft side is about 10.3-10.5 based on noname brand caliper)

can anyone confirm that 90ft-lb on the t-case flange stake nut for me?.....the dealer did at least get me the right stake nut

[toyodaaddict]

Finally going to mess with this think some tonight when I get home.  I got side tracked last week with an impromptu brake issue....which I only got half fixed, but that's a different story.  Also, I ordered new driveshaft bolts from the stealer and when I went to pick them up yesterday and guy had gone back and changed the order to match the 8mm old style for some reason.  The paperwork looked like he forgot to order the lock washers and then looked back at my account realized past records show I have an 80 and then changed my request from the later 10mm to the older the 8mm style....needless to say I'm still waiting, but in the meantime I can change t-case grease, swap t-case flange and drill out diff flange......

....I'll post some pics tomorrow of the drilling and comment on how it went for a weekend warrior tech......wish i had those damn bolts to put the holes as I drilled them.  Drilling holes at size X....10.08mm (shaft side is about 10.3-10.5 based on noname brand caliper)

can anyone confirm that 90ft-lb on the t-case flange stake nut for me?.....the dealer did at least get me the right stake nut

90ft-lb, FSM confirmed 

[jmac80 [OP]]

And the saga continues.....drilled out the diff flange....wasn't too bad. Moved to transfer case side and had trouble removing 17mm fill plug with 12 point socket. I could tell I was going to f it up, so went to orielly's for a socket. The only shallow six point they had was in a crappy looking set.....bought it anyway as it was 1/2" drive. Promptly snapped socket upon returning home and am hoping they'll take set back this afternoon.....high hopes for a broken hand tool. So I ordered a set of impact sockets from ebay and will await those and 8 of the low profile Allen plugs from MC. I just went ahead and bought for whole truck and will replace as needed. Also, my driveshaft bolts arrived at Toyota today, so I've got this now too.....they robbed me, I'm embarrassed to tell what I paid.

BTW the centers on the t case side lined up but I didn't trust the square flange to hold up after making holes bigger and closer to edge, see pic.

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[mudmaster]

Those will be fine. Run it!

[jmac80 [OP]]

Those will be fine. Run it!

May not have been clear.....those on the square are the 8mm still need to be drilled out 25% bigger for the 10mm bolt.  I think that pushing it and will just wait until Monday until I can swap for circular flange.  I've got another wheel cylinder and rear shoes to do to keep me busy in the meantime.  I'll check back next week, once it's bolted up.

Freaking d-shaft nuts, bolts, and washers came in at around $80 for complete set at Toyota.....they had me.  On the phone the guy quoted $30, then special ordered with purchase in advance.  After getting there and realizing he ordered the wrong thing even though I told him for an '85, they didn't make me pay but would only apply toward another purchase...and that's the $80 set.

Free driveshaft and hundo worth of hardware......typical BS

[jmac80 [OP]]

Ughh....I really feel like a fool now. Impact sockets and Allen head sockets showed up in the mail today so I was stoked to get that shaft back in and have 4WD operable again. I had to beat the socket onto both fill and drain plug but that went surprisingly smoothly....drain plug was in worse shape than the fill, although not nearly as tight. Drain case and moved to flange on case output. Wasn't too bad either, see pic of old style next to new before installing. Greased back of splines and rtv the front, rtv back of washer and then torqued and staked nut. Filled the case with grease and moved to shaft. Greased the joints while on the ground....the cv joint did not easily accept grease but I eventually got some in there (i have a cheap grease gun, air may have helped). Got four of my new million dollar shaft bolts in the front, had to put nut side facing forward as there wasn't room between front pinion flange and dust shield to get the larger bolts in with nut on backside.  Then I went to hang the back and BANG! Shaft too long can't get it around crossmember, so I think "damn, gotta hang the heavy cv side first". I took down front, put two bolts in the t case side and then move back to getting front up and in position.....shaft is too long and doesn't fit. It's about 2" too long when completely compressed.

So I guess I'll have to get tube shortened or have a Frankenstein made with old shaft.  I'm also halfway considering going all in and getting new springs and a high steer kit....but that's another subject. I guess a whole lot more drivetrain stuff transfers from 2nd to 3rd gens than does 2nd to 1st.

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[jmac80 [OP]]

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[jmac80 [OP]]

Damn guys....I really feel like a moron now. So paid $130 to get OCD's donor shaft shortened and picked it up today. Got under truck excited to get 4x4 functioning again and it is won't fit. The CV joint of the later model doesn't allow as  much (enough) angle. See pic with each fully bent side by side.

I thought some of you guys had these later model shafts on the first gens. What's the work around? Is your axles twisted to reduce shaft angle?



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[Mudder]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned building a square tube front shaft...

[jmac80 [OP]]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned building a square tube front shaft...

I've read people have mixed results with those......comments like "paint shaker" come to mind.  Also if I was going to do this, I may as well just have the cv removed and get the driveline guy to putter Spicer u joint on each end. He quoted around $500 to do this the original one.

Mudder, do you run square homemade shaft? Had good luck with them? ....I don't have access to a welder now anyway, so I'd have to pay someone for all the fab work and joints.

It's frustrating.....Guess I'm just learning lessons the hard way over. I'm thinking just take it back and pay to have the Spicer joints put in the late model one. Seems like best option right? Cheaper option is buy an early model used one and switch the flange back out on the t-case......not really keen on buying 30 year old parts, but I like my money too!

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[mudmaster]

I have an IFS one, but I also have an HP front. There's a thread either here or on Pirate about grinding the CV to achieve more angle.

[jmac80 [OP]]

I have an IFS one, but I also have an HP front. There's a thread either here or on Pirate about grinding the CV to achieve more angle.

I was wondering if that was a possibility after pulling them out an looking at them closely yesterday afternoon.  I've never hear of anyone doing this so figured it was not an option, but I'm glad to hear there is still hope for using this shaft.  I'll do some research and see what I come up with.   ....I'll be treading lightly as a guest over at Pirate!!  Those guys will jump on your arse for a rookie question, makes for some pretty funny thread reads.

Also, when I spoke with Jesse at High Angle he was suggesting using a later model shaft for a CV donor/source to repair my earlier shaft which also leads me to believe many people have/are running these later CVs.  I believe OCD said this one came off of an R-series transmission.  I wonder if that has something to do with my issue?  Anyone know if the R-series had different shafts (are the transmissions/bell housing that much longer than our more common L/G/W series is another way to ask this)? 

Things I noticed yesterday - The ball in the CV on that early one can really get exposed when fully articulated (I can see how it would get trail muck in it easily) and not really relative to current topic.  And, It was also not apparent what was limiting the angle on the later model one (no obvious contact points between the yokes and CV housing leaving me to believe limitation was in the design of the joint itself, another reason I assumed grinding was not an option. 

[OVRAROK]

i built my low budget square driveshaft, and clearance my cv joint, I followed this writeup http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/cvmod/

[jmac80 [OP]]

i built my low budget square driveshaft, and clearance my cv joint, I followed this writeup http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/cvmod/

Man Ovrarok I just read that.  That would work for me....just mod the one I've got.  I'm a little skeptical in my ability to get the joints out without loosing all the roller bearings.  Were you successful in reusing the old joints or did you put in new?  I've done several ujoints but never tried to salvage an old one, seems tough.

I don't have a vise either....working in the basement parking garage of an apartment building is always fun.  I've done rear shafts without a vise, but this front short guy will definitely be flopping around being shorter and lighter than the long rear shaft.   ......I need to find a buddy with a shop that I can invade from time to time around here.