Topic: Common approach to lengthening front driveshaft

[jmac80]

Hello all and happy Monday-

I've got a 3" Rough Country lift on my 80, and I now believe that my front driveshaft is broken because it is stock and probably not long enough and/or at weird angle.  I was using 4WD and started hearing a popping noise from the front right.  After checking u-joints and listening to the noise come and go with turning and different stresses, I attributed it to the passenger birfield.  Well I put some 30 spline Marfields in this weekend and low and behold $700 later and still popping.  I first thought, oh great the differential is screwed up, but upon cleaning up my axle swap mess I noticed I could make the drive shaft wiggle where the shaft and tube go together (basically, not keeping a straight line between x-case and differential).

So what's the common approach to dealing with this?  This is my DD and I typically use it for trail riding and some light 4 wheeling.  Truck is basically stock aside from the 3" suspension lift (j-arm was cut and spacer added to keep the stock steering system).

[SqWADoosh]

Step 1: Remove driveshaft
Step 2: Take a tape measure and measure from the output flange to the differential flange. Write this measurement down.
Step 3: Start calling local driveshaft companies and find out who will make you a long slip CV driveshaft (you want it to be at least 12 inces of long slip) to the measurement you took in step 2. You may need to find a CV core to give them to use.
Step 4: 

[jmac80 [OP]]

Step 1: Remove driveshaft
Step 2: Take a tape measure and measure from the output flange to the differential flange. Write this measurement down.
Step 3: Start calling local driveshaft companies and find out who will make you a long slip CV driveshaft (you want it to be at least 12 inces of long slip) to the measurement you took in step 2. You may need to find a CV core to give them to use.
Step 4: 

OK thanks!  For some reason I don't get why you just can't by a longer yoke/spline or yoke/tube, maybe I will when I pull it out and look at it.  So, can't I just provide my stock one for a CV source?  The joints seem fine as I checked this before doing the axles with hopes of finding them as the culprit of the popping....should have been paying more attention to the middle part of the shaft, I guess.

So,

1) Can I just provide my stock as a component source?
2) 12 inches of long slip.....do we want to use something like 4" compression and 8" extension?  I'm just guessing.  I don't have a whole lot of flex in the truck but why the hell not get more for your money right?

Thanks for helping, I've never had anything but stock suspensions in the past and haven't really had to deal with this.

[blackdiamond]

You might be able to get away with just having the tube replaced with a longer one and staying with your stock non-CV style driveshaft. I had 3-4 inches of lift with my 85, used the stock steering setup, and never touched the front driveshaft.

CV is certainly better but for light wheeling I think you'll be ok. This would be a much more cost effective fix in the short term.

[blackdiamond]

Jesse at High Angle Driveline is where I got my CVs for front and rear.

[jmac80 [OP]]

You might be able to get away with just having the tube replaced with a longer one and staying with your stock non-CV style driveshaft. I had 3-4 inches of lift with my 85, used the stock steering setup, and never touched the front driveshaft.

CV is certainly better but for light wheeling I think you'll be ok. This would be a much more cost effective fix in the short term.

I'm getting confused now.....isn't my front shaft already a CV shaft?  It's the Double Cardan set up w/ 2 u-joints by the x-case and 1 by at the differential.  It does have an L52 5-speed tranny that I believe someone put in, replacing the l42 4-speed tranny.  Would they have brought the CV joint from a later model over to my 80; I assumed all 1st gens had CV shafts like 2nd and 3rd gens, am I wrong? 

I had an 81 a couple of years back, but I immediately put a w56 tranny in w/ the later model x-case and used the late model tubes and early model spline shafts.  I remember doing this to avoid having to swap around flanges and/or yokes, but I don't remember what the front DS looked like on 4-speed.....now I'm just thinking out loud....I'll shut up now.

[blackdiamond]

I should be more specific. My 85 had the 4.5 inch Superlift springs. They used the stock mounts and I ran stock shackles. They flexed pretty well, but seemingly not enough to case an issue with the front driveshaft.

[blackdiamond]

I'm getting confused now.....isn't my front shaft already a CV shaft?  It's the Double Cardan set up w/ 2 u-joints by the x-case and 1 by at the differential.  It does have an L52 5-speed tranny that I believe someone put in, replacing the l42 4-speed tranny.  Would they have brought the CV joint from a later model over to my 80; I assumed all 1st gens had CV shafts like 2nd and 3rd gens, am I wrong? 

I had an 81 a couple of years back, but I immediately put a w56 tranny in w/ the later model x-case and used the late model tubes and early model spline shafts.  I remember doing this to avoid having to swap around flanges and/or yokes, but I don't remember what the front DS looked like on 4-speed.....now I'm just thinking out loud....I'll shut up now.

If you have a CV already then you might just need to have the tube lengthened. I would guess that if your stock steering is working then you may not require the additional travel from the long splines.

I honestly have no idea what type of front driveshaft I had in the 85 beyond it being stock. Maybe it was a CV.

[jmac80 [OP]]

I'm going to watch the Warriors this afternoon, but maybe Tuesday or Wednesday I'll pull the shaft out and look at it more closely......the spline set may be fubared since it started popping and initially it worked fine.  Initially being only a minor amount of 4WD usage......I've used the 4WD in this truck only a few times.

Also need to fight with fixing a busted lug nut, stripped the back off.  I'm not very fond of the aluminum wheels, the lugs are a PIA.

[Slabzilla]

All '85 front driveshafts have the double cardan at the T-case and a single u-joint at the diff.  A d-shaft spacer mentioned above might work as a temp at the t-case until you get a long slip conversion like the all-pro one.  The d-shaft wall is only .65", I'd have it re-tubed to at least .95" or better, but that's just me.   

[jmac80 [OP]]

Hi folks-  Warriors got there butts kicked....we'll see what happens Thursday

Anyway,

I think I now realize you are talking about a pickup so from what I heard Toyota uses metric splines and the raw material is not available to shaft shops in the US so they can't modify them to long travel just retube making it longer with the same travel. you would have to buy a $300 kit like this for metric long travel and use all or just part of it https://www.allprooffroad.com/84894runnerdrivetrain/31 or have a new long travel shaft built using more common spline material or use the spacers in my post above as long as your front shaft is from an 84 or newer(spacers don't fit the 79-83)

Yes, 80 long bed pickup, 20R, L52, (I think gear ratio is 3.67....I've been meaning to do the spin the wheel and count technique), crappy 3" Rough Country suspension lift, push-pull steer, 31" BFG-ATs, stupid aluminum wheels (lug nuts make me mad), PS, CA smog carb, and of course AC (never turned it on)

All '85 front driveshafts have the double cardan at the T-case and a single u-joint at the diff.  A d-shaft spacer mentioned above might work as a temp at the t-case until you get a long slip conversion like the all-pro one.  The d-shaft wall is only .65", I'd have it re-tubed to at least .95" or better, but that's just me.   

do we know the history on the front driveshaft for the 1st gens?

I'm not broke anymore, so I don't mind spending a couple bucks....especially on a DD....can't just let everything go to s**t.  I called a driveshaft place down in San Leandro yesterday (Drive Line Service of San Leandro) and talked with them.  I think they mainly do DS for big rigs, but they guestimated around $150-200 labor plus material to build something using my current CV joint.....So, do I want to need a tube extension or long travel spline?

[blackdiamond]

You likely don't need a long travel front driveshaft in your current configuration, but if you plan to go further with your build you might be better off going that direction now but you may still end up having to adjust the length again.

[jmac80 [OP]]

You likely don't need a long travel front driveshaft in your current configuration, but if you plan to go further with your build you might be better off going that direction now but you may still end up having to adjust the length again.

I don't think I'll do much that would effect DS length requirements.  I would like to do the IFS steering box / high-steer upgrade.....other than that I'm fine with stock for what I do with it.   

[jmac80 [OP]]

Back again....pulled the driveshaft. Splines are fine. Somebody already lengthened it a about 2.5".....but it doesn't look super straight and the yokes were like 60/30 phase. Would that slack in the splines allow for it to pop back and forth and sound like a cv/birfield like I thought originally?

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[jmac80 [OP]]

Sorry, what in saying is it's not too short but I think it may be F**ked

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[84_yota_4wd]

I would take that to a driveshaft shop as a core.

They will cut the tube out and replace just t he tube.

So both issues that that Shaft has would be corrected at one time.

You could also have them install pto splines for a long spline of you need it.

Most shops will even cut down the 12" pto if you don't want it that long.

[jmac80 [OP]]

I would take that to a driveshaft shop as a core.

They will cut the tube out and replace just t he tube.

So both issues that that Shaft has would be corrected at one time.

You could also have them install pto splines for a long spline of you need it.

Most shops will even cut down the 12" pto if you don't want it that long.

Just got off the phone with a guy at the shop.  Going by tomorrow after work to discuss the shaft and my clicking/popping noise.....hopefully it's one and the same...if not the only things left that it could be is the rearend or the x-case.  Will report back.

[blackdiamond]

Just got off the phone with a guy at the shop.  Going by tomorrow after work to discuss the shaft and my clicking/popping noise.....hopefully it's one and the same...if not the only things left that it could be is the rearend or the x-case.  Will report back.

Pull the front driveshaft and the go for a ride with hubs out and then hubs in. If the noise is gone then it's likely the driveshaft. If it's only there with hubs in you can isolate the front end minus the driveshaft.

[jmac80 [OP]]

Pull the front driveshaft and the go for a ride with hubs out and then hubs in. If the noise is gone then it's likely the driveshaft. If it's only there with hubs in you can isolate the front end minus the driveshaft.

D-shaft is out.....lying the bed waiting to go to the shop.

It will only make the noise with hubs locked and in 4WD.  I've tried every combination w/ x-case engaged, hubs locked, and driveshaft in/out.  The noise is just like a CV joint.  First it was sporadic, with turning making it start the clicking/popping.  Then would come and go while driving straight (in 4WD).  Now it does it constantly w/ 4WD engaged and hubs locked.

Any other thoughts....I'm at a loss

[blackdiamond]

D-shaft is out.....lying the bed waiting to go to the shop.

It will only make the noise with hubs locked and in 4WD.  I've tried every combination w/ x-case engaged, hubs locked, and driveshaft in/out.  The noise is just like a CV joint.  First it was sporadic, with turning making it start the clicking/popping.  Then would come and go while driving straight (in 4WD).  Now it does it constantly w/ 4WD engaged and hubs locked.

Any other thoughts....I'm at a loss

I made the suggestion based on  your comment about it possibly being the rear end.  Just to confirm have you tried all of the following combinations with the front driveshaft out:

(1) 2wd Hi with hubs unlocked
(2) 2wd Hi with hubs locked
(3) 4wd Hi with hubs unlocked
(4) 4wd Hi with hubs locked
(5) 4wd Lo with hubs unlocked
(6) 4wd Lo with hubs locked

[jmac80 [OP]]

I made the suggestion based on  your comment about it possibly being the rear end.  Just to confirm have you tried all of the following combinations with the front driveshaft out:

(1) 2wd Hi with hubs unlocked
(2) 2wd Hi with hubs locked
(3) 4wd Hi with hubs unlocked
(4) 4wd Hi with hubs locked
(5) 4wd Lo with hubs unlocked
(6) 4wd Lo with hubs locked

Hey bud- you got me second guessing myself so I just reconfirmed. I am unable to recreate the noise with D-shaft out......I even checked forward and reverse. If it were the T-case I would think it would do it all the time, which leads me to the rear end.....or differential whatever you want to call it.....bad habit I picked up from my pops.

I'll see what the drive shaft shop says and go from there....Probably say, yeah give us your money.

I wish I new someone with a lift....I would run it on the lift and listen. I would lay on the ground and listen but I don't trust the wife or any of the few Bay Area buddies of mine not to run over my butt! Just moved here about a year ago and none of my friends are very....let's say mechanically inclined.

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[blackdiamond]

Hey bud- you got me second guessing myself so I just reconfirmed. I am unable to recreate the noise with D-shaft out......I even checked forward and reverse. If it were the T-case I would think it would do it all the time, which leads me to the rear end.....or differential whatever you want to call it.....bad habit I picked up from my pops.

I'll see what the drive shaft shop says and go from there....Probably say, yeah give us your money.

I wish I new someone with a lift....I would run it on the lift and listen. I would lay on the ground and listen but I don't trust the wife or any of the few Bay Area buddies of mine not to run over my butt! Just moved here about a year ago and none of my friends are very....let's say mechanically inclined.

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If you can't recreate the noise without the driveshaft out even with the hubs turned in (differential will stiff be turning) and it is consistent with it installed, your driveshaft become a prime suspect in my mind.

[jmac80 [OP]]

If you can't recreate the noise without the driveshaft out even with the hubs turned in (differential will stiff be turning) and it is consistent with it installed, your driveshaft become a prime suspect in my mind.

Yeah but doesn't sound like a drive shaft and would making turns make it start and stop....as it did in the beginning. That said I've only had u joints fail and am not familiar with getting "bending" slack in them.

Also, wouldn't the gears in the diff be running against opposite surfaces without the input driving it....do you follow me.....I'm saying wouldnt the backlash would move to the front of teeth. maybe it won't pop when turning under this condition.

Another point for you, the truck doesn't seen to have seen much 4WD so this would go against diff or x-case.

Pardon the grammar I have using this stupid phone to type.

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[blackdiamond]

Yeah but doesn't sound like a drive shaft and would making turns make it start and stop....as it did in the beginning. That said I've only had u joints fail and am not familiar with getting "bending" slack in them.

Also, wouldn't the gears in the diff be running against opposite surfaces without the input driving it....do you follow me.....I'm saying wouldnt the backlash would move to the front of teeth. maybe it won't pop when turning under this condition.

Another point for you, the truck doesn't seen to have seen much 4WD so this would go against diff or x-case.

Pardon the grammar I have using this stupid phone to type.

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I had considered the differential being on the opposite side of the gears, but when backing up you would be using the same side. It is possible that it doesn't create the issue when not being driven.

[jmac80 [OP]]

I had considered the differential being on the opposite side of the gears, but when backing up you would be using the same side. It is possible that it doesn't create the issue when not being driven.

Yep yep yep.....good point with the reverse!

Let's see what this driveline guy says tomorrow and I'll report back.....take it easy folks

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[jmac80 [OP]]

If you can't recreate the noise without the driveshaft out even with the hubs turned in (differential will stiff be turning) and it is consistent with it installed, your driveshaft become a prime suspect in my mind.

Well blackdiamond I think you were right.  Just got back from shop.  The guys was able to put it in the vise show me some slack in the CV joint, although it wasn't apparently obvious; the ball in had some play if you put it in the right position.  He also said that it could make a clicking noise.....so, I guess I can't use that one for a donor.  I left it at the shop and told him I would call and let him know what I wanted to do.

His suggestion, cut off the CV Joint and replace Toyota w/ a Spicer.  Also replace u-joint on other end and balance.  He quoted $500, and I quickly s**t myself.  $500 seemed high, but I'm fairly certain this guys will build it right.  What's everyone think?  I could also hit the junkyard this weekend, but I bet all those trucks around Oakland have been gutted out of everything useful.

[blackdiamond]

I would get a quote from Jesse at High Angle and see how they compare. I don't remember how much mine cost but $500 doesn't sound too horrible if memory serves.

[blackdiamond]

You could also contact www.yotayard.com.

[OCD]

Not sure if these would work for your application or not but I've got a stock 86 standard cab turbo I'm currently parting out. You can have the shafts if you want them. No visible issues with them, but I never actually drove the truck myself. Truck is currently in San Jose...

[Slabzilla]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but the DS ear at the CV should be in alignment with the u-joint ear on the other end of the shaft, not the flange.