Author Topic: Flux core vs mig (Read 44505 times)

Gear Jammin-Dog Chasin-Yota Man · « **Reply #60 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 09:08:58 AM »

re-read the web page.

"see below (from http://www.twi.co.uk/content/jk40.html go to the page for images):
Incomplete root fusion or penetration

Incomplete root fusion is when the weld fails to fuse one side of the joint in the root. Incomplete root penetration occurs when both sides of the joint are unfused. Typical imperfections can arise in the following situations:[/i]
an excessively thick root face in a butt weld (Fig. 1a)
too small a root gap (Fig. 1b)
misplaced welds (Fig. 1c)
failure to remove sufficient metal in cutting back to sound metal in a double sided weld (Fig. 1d)
incomplete root fusion when using too low an arc energy (heat) input (Fig. 1e) too small a bevel angle,
too large an electrode in MMA welding (Fig 2)
Fig. 1 Causes of incomplete root fusion a) Excessively thick root face
b) Too small a root gap
c) Misplaced welds
d) Power input too low
e) Arc (heat) input too low

Notice that your points about bevel and joint fit up are also listed above. And so are mine about heat and electrode size.

Gear Jammin-Dog Chasin-Yota Man · « **Reply #61 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 09:11:51 AM »

I am done with this topic.

I was simply giving my

to help explain to the guy who started it about a few basic welding concepts.

I am getting tired of the certified welding nazi ism and unwillingness to admit there are other variables in welding than just "by the book" x-ray quality welds every time in every situation

junya92toy · « **Reply #62 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 09:23:39 AM »

YA.and a basic concept is to bevel

Burl · « **Reply #63 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 12:54:33 PM »

junya92toy · « **Reply #64 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 12:56:31 PM »

HAHHAHAHAH some guys.

Dr.Maxwe001 · « **Reply #65 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 01:22:36 PM »

94MtnYote · « **Reply #66 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 01:31:42 PM »

It's unfortunate that almost every welding thread turns into an argument.

junya92toy · « **Reply #67 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 01:32:44 PM »

Quote from: 94MtnYote on Mar 22, 2011, 01:31:42 PM

It's unfortunate that almost every welding thread turns into an argument.

Debating.

superyota · « **Reply #68 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 01:40:50 PM »

I think it's great, as long as it doesn't get out of hand. I like hearing people argue different sides. helps me learn more.

junya92toy · « **Reply #69 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 01:47:26 PM »

There is nothing wrong with just welding a t joint with no bevel, as long as you do enough passes to make it a big enough weld for strength relative to the thickness of the metal. BUt if you want a even stronger weld with more penetration, bevel whenever you can.

91 ex-cab · « **Reply #70 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 03:25:46 PM »

Well on a good note this thread is now packed full of info. Regardless if you all have different opinions theres a lot of good knowledge here

Sparkplug · « **Reply #71 on:** Mar 22, 2011, 04:30:18 PM »

x2, I was taught by a "CERTIFIED TEACHER" and i could weld ok, got some info from a real world, not old school, open minded individual, and now my welds are 100 percent better. Sometimes people get upset when they have thought they were right for so long, then find out otherwise. I myself like to learn, and am always open to new ideas, this thread is sweet.

Gear Jammin-Dog Chasin-Yota Man · « **Reply #72 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 07:07:28 AM »

Ok, I said I was done on this thread but I saw your comment and had to respond (DISREGARD IT IF YOU WERENT TALKING TO ME).

Quote from: Sparkplug on Mar 22, 2011, 04:30:18 PM

x2, I was taught by a "CERTIFIED TEACHER" and i could weld ok, got some info from a real world, not old school, open minded individual, and now my welds are 100 percent better. Sometimes people get upset when they have thought they were right for so long, then find out otherwise. I myself like to learn, and am always open to new ideas, this thread is sweet.

First of all, yes this thread is sweet, lots of good opinions and info. Secondly, by your comments above, you haven't read all the posts entirely, if you have, boy, sorry, you are missing something.
Third, For your info, I am open minded, am not old school-in fact I am not even "old" and my "CERTIFIED TEACHER" is based on a class 4 license-not some college books or paper degree-but real world work experience. If you don't have any clue what a class 4 teaching license is- it is a license to teach TRADES AND TECHNOLOGY BASED ON A MINIMUM OF 5 YEARS OF PROFESSIONAL WORK IN THE FIELD OF WELDING AND CONSTRUCTION -5 MIN. YEARS EACH TRADE-.
fourth-If you would read what I wrote in my "debates" you could see that I
am arguing for all the principals in welding technique to be considered- RE READ THEM ALL AND YOU WILL SEE.

"Sometimes people get upset when they have thought they were right for so long, then find out otherwise."

I was completely aware of open corners and penetration-just saying that you can't leave heat out of the equation. i AM ONLY uPSET AT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE AREN'T READING THE POSTS THOUGHOULY ENOUGH TO SEE THAT I AM NOT STUCK ON ONE IDEA ABOUT WELDING PENETRATION-AND I EVEN OFFERED DOCUMENTED SUPPORT FOR MY ARGUMENT.

I am sorry your "old school certified teacher" did not teach you everything. But then again, not one person alone can teach you everything-that is why we have these threads and try to share our knowlege with each other.

Gear Jammin-Dog Chasin-Yota Man · « **Reply #73 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 07:35:48 AM »

Quote from: junya92toy on Mar 22, 2011, 01:47:26 PM

There is nothing wrong with just welding a t joint with no bevel, as long as you do enough passes to make it a big enough weld for strength relative to the thickness of the metal. BUt if you want a even stronger weld with more penetration, bevel whenever you can.

X2

junya92toy · « **Reply #74 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 08:35:57 AM »

My whole point was people dont quite get fusion vs penetration. Like when they see the ad for a welder, welds 3/8ths or 1/2. SUre its got the power to get fusion. But if doesnt get much penetration. How much is needed, thats debatable. I know its not going to over 1/8 or even less.

Dr.Maxwe001 · « **Reply #75 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 09:35:58 AM »

BOTTOM LINE

when ever possible Bevel the edge

however beveling is not possible in all situations and proper adjustment or alternate welding procedures must be used.

AND THATS THE BOTTM LINE BECAUSE I SAID SO

Sparkplug · « **Reply #76 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 10:18:43 AM »

I read all the threads, I was directing to to anyone it pertained to. I have met COUNTLESS "Certified" people in my life, from flying planes, to building engines, to fixing ac systems. You would not believe how many people are great at soaking material, but horrible at letting it out. Some people construe information wrong, or will be told something, see it work once, and then think its gold. I have a miller 211, capapble of 3/8 it says in a single pass. I would NEVER weld 3/8 in a single pass with it, my machine flat COULD NOT do it. It says right on the machine make multiple pass welds. I have done lots of reading myself, no im not certified. I have come to find, beveling when you can, multi passes, and preperation are the MOST impotant factors when it comes to welding. Heat and power IS a factor, but not liek the others. I can weld 3/8th multi passes with my miller on 110 or 220, and my welds will turn out the same, one just takes a tad more time.

Gear Jammin-Dog Chasin-Yota Man · « **Reply #77 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 11:11:32 AM »

yjay · « **Reply #78 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 06:10:52 PM »

Quote from: maxwe001 on Mar 23, 2011, 09:35:58 AM

BOTTOM LINE

when ever possible Bevel the edge

however beveling is not possible in all situations and proper adjustment or alternate welding procedures must be used.

AND THATS THE BOTTM LINE BECAUSE I SAID SO

Do you believe that beveling a plate that will be placed in say a T joint orientation and welded from one side as opposed to fillet welding it with a weld the same size as the thickness of the material being welded increases the strength of that assembly?
Any of the "debaters" feel free to give an opinion.

junya92toy · « **Reply #79 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 07:40:00 PM »

Quote from: yjay on Mar 23, 2011, 06:10:52 PM

Do you believe that beveling a plate that will be placed in say a T joint orientation and welded from one side as opposed to fillet welding it with a weld the same size as the thickness of the material being welded increases the strength of that assembly?
Any of the "debaters" feel free to give an opinion.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!! Its a 100% penetration weld that way. And I have done a lot of that on structural steel. ANd they still wanted a a fillet weld on top of the full pen weld too.

If you weld one side only in a T joint, I dont care how big the weld is, and you bend it, it will fail. If you bevel and do a 100 % pen weld, it wont

yjay · « **Reply #80 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 07:48:29 PM »

So "they" consider that a full pen weld with no backing plate or backgouging?

junya92toy · « **Reply #81 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 08:04:45 PM »

Quote from: yjay on Mar 23, 2011, 07:48:29 PM

So "they" consider that a full pen weld with no backing plate or backgouging?

Correct, picture this, when you bevel the plate, its at a angle, when you put the weld back in there, it becomes part of the plate and through the full thickness of the plate, where they meet it has fusion. Now without a back gouge or backing plate you need to make sure the weld does goes all the way through. That is where skill comes in, along with a root opening. Pipe welding is done one side only a lot, you have a open root, and you use a 6010 rod so it shields it from the inside too. Usually its got a 1/8inch re-enforcement on the inside.
A backing plate or back gouge, leaves very little error.

yjay · « **Reply #82 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 08:24:20 PM »

Is complete penetration in pipe welding from one side verified with some type of testing?

junya92toy · « **Reply #83 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 08:27:26 PM »

Quote from: yjay on Mar 23, 2011, 08:24:20 PM

Is complete penetration in pipe welding from one side verified with some type of testing?

absolutly!!! every weld is tested to be certified.

yjay · « **Reply #84 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 08:34:13 PM »

These tests are used to verify both that there is complete penetration as well as no unacceptable stress risers present as well correct?

junya92toy · « **Reply #85 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 08:44:30 PM »

Yes, im going to start a new thread about certifying soon. They grind off the re enforcement on the top of the plate and the bottom, cut a coupon and do a face bend and root bend, to see if the first pass was good and then to test if the cover passes were good. It breaks it fails, if it has little spots that open a little, it might pass, if they are under 1/32 and the whole sum of all those are under 3/8s, for d1.1

yjay · « **Reply #86 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 08:50:05 PM »

In testing for production pipe welding they either RT or UT test though correct? Coupons are only cut out of test plates for welder position certification/qualification testing right?

Dr.Maxwe001 · « **Reply #87 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 08:56:49 PM »

Quote from: junya92toy on Mar 23, 2011, 08:04:45 PM

Correct, picture this, when you bevel the plate, its at a angle, when you put the weld back in there, it becomes part of the plate and through the full thickness of the plate, where they meet it has fusion. Now without a back gouge or backing plate you need to make sure the weld does goes all the way through. That is where skill comes in, along with a root opening. Pipe welding is done one side only a lot, you have a open root, and you use a 6010 rod so it shields it from the inside too. Usually its got a 1/8inch re-enforcement on the inside.

A backing plate or back gouge, leaves very little error.

junya92toy · « **Reply #88 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 09:11:14 PM »

Quote from: yjay on Mar 23, 2011, 08:50:05 PM

In testing for production pipe welding they either RT or UT test though correct? Coupons are only cut out of test plates for welder position certification/qualification testing right?

they cut and bend pipe too

yjay · « **Reply #89 on:** Mar 23, 2011, 09:15:19 PM »

For certification of the production pipe welds or for qualification/certification of the welder/operator?

91 ex-cab [OP]

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