Keeping big tires off the trails

[Lowrider]

Check it out. Dustin Hoffman, "Rain Man," looked retarded, act retarded, not retarded. Counted toothpicks, cheated cards. Autistic, sho". Not retarded. You know Tom Hanks, "Forrest Gump." Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't retarded. Peter Sellers, "Being There." Infantile, yes. Retarded, no. You went full retard, man. Never go full retard. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full retard, went home empty handed...

[H8PVMNT]

Haha!

[Rocksurfer]

I'm breaking out my hovercraft..... seriously I am in total agreement with H8PVMNT on skill level learned and earned instead of bought. I started on stockers in my 84 and actually learned how to wheel and pick my lines for the least amount of distruction to my truck, plus I had to drive it to work on Monday. Some people have not learned the art and have just bought their way in to the sport with and I will admit excellent equipment. The one thing I learned over the years with building up rigs, I usually start with a virgin rig and build it to what I want wheeling it along the way. Everytime I've done this I get reintroduced to real offroading in a stock rig. Wakes me up and makes me realize not to lose the art.

[H8PVMNT]

I'm keeping my '80 longbed fairly stock other than some lockers because it seems to keep me sharp.  My other ride is so point and shoot I can get spoiled.   It's easy to forget just how much is vehicle and how much is driver.

[TacoRunner]

This is the    thread ever, I vote it be deleted!

[250f4life]

Tire size is not as bad as an irresponsible person. And if you think that's bad let side by sides and 4wheelers start riding the trails. IMHO that was one of the things that killed tellico. 4wheelers can make it up the ledges and next thing you know there are 10 new trails.

[Jud]

Wayyyy too many factors to argue here, I agree with TacoRunner. DELETE

[junya92toy]

Why delete it? If you dont like make a choice and dont read it. Dont take away other peoples freedom of choice because you cant make your own decision and choose to ignore it.

[Stocker]

It's a discussion, people disagree, why delete it? 


And btw I didn't see anything homosexual about this thread....   

[possume22]

they are  gay

[GNasty 82]

I think we are all saying pretty much the same thing: Big tires or small, Lockers or not, it is the driver that is responsible. 

I vote to put up a poll with the question of what (other than nature) causes the most trail degredation: small tires, large tires, lack of lockers, or the driver, or any other non-natural contributors you can think of.

[*** YELLER ***]

I VOTE BACON

[46&2]

I guess this is sort of a rant but I was talking to a buddy bout a week ago and we were discussing how the trails are getting chewed up bad by the large tires people keeping running.  Dont get me wrong there is some places which really need larger tires like the hammers.  The main complaint we have is trails such as the con, fordyce and high lakes.  These trails use to be perfect for 35"s.  Now its getting to the point were 35"s are just to small.  If we really want to cont. to have these trails in the future we as a 4 wheeling community need to take responsibility for the erosion of the trails.  Larger tires eat away at the trail much faster.  I suppose I may be a minority on this but I felt like I should post something about it.  Big tires have their place but imo its not on the beautiful trails we want to have around for years to come. 

I have been through both Fordyce and Rubicon with 35s no problem. I did not find either trail to difficult for 35s. Its just dirt and rocks. I didn't have to tear the trails up to make it through, I crawled through it all right behind my friends with 37s, 40s, etc. Its all in the driver. Tire size has nothing to do with it.

[WHITE_TRASH]

I have been through both Fordyce and Rubicon with 35s no problem. I did not find either trail to difficult for 35s. Its just dirt and rocks. I didn't have to tear the trails up to make it through, I crawled through it all right behind my friends with 37s, 40s, etc. Its all in the driver. Tire size has nothing to do with it.

In some area's on some trail you are right tire size doesn't matter.  BUT the flipside is that on some trails small tires just flat won't do it no matter who the driver is.  People seem to forget that sort of thing.

[<James>]

Haha I noticed crazykooter started a thread on how to build sliders. imagin how many rocks he will be grinding across creating erosion cuz he wheels the con on 33's/35's, OMG those poor rocks. Hahaah

On a more serious note this thread is stupid

[46&2]

In some area's on some trail you are right tire size doesn't matter.  BUT the flipside is that on some trails small tires just flat won't do it no matter who the driver is.  People seem to forget that sort of thing.

Well of course. My point was the OP was acting like Rubicon is too hard without big tires and its not.

[crazykooter]

At least this thread got people post counts.   Heres the problem with most of the post regarding this.   If you went back 10 yrs most trails were perfect for 35's.  Now more and more 37's are needed and its only gonna get worse.  Yes I do agree erosion has a lot to do with it but really when I think bout it....its got more to do with the amount of trucks going on the trails compared to 10 yrs ago.   I guess my main point was if we keep upping the tire size and have drivers who dont do everything they can not to chew up the trails then we wouldnt need bigger tires.   You can blame mother nature all you want but the truth is we are to blame.    I suppose I see things a diff way then most and maybe its do to me being around the trails for a long time.  Doesnt really matter what I think. What matters is that everyone who wheels does as much as they can to stop the trails from becoming completely trashed.   I just want the trails to remain open to us for yrs to come. 

[twistedtoy92]

good point, its like the old saying:"one bad apple will ruin the whole barrel"   

[bleakhorizon]

around here the trails get "rebuilt" so after they "rebuild" it 31's can make it.... untill it rains then its 35s w/lockers and above....

as long as ppl stay on the designated trails they will stay open, and more are opening new trails are opening around me faster than they are getting shut down....

of course this isnt the same situation as you guys with the almost all rock trails.  but it just goes to show you there are places where it really doesn't matter. as long as you fallow the rules, you can keep it goin...

[Rocksurfer]

Anyone here ever hear of Treadlightly, nope didn't think so.


Point being is that we all need to consider this. The more we damage a trail the more fuel we give those that would like to lock us out. Even though it is an open trail or area do the least amount of damage and leave it as you found it. I read things that I totally disagree with such as when someone gets mad because rocks were stacked on a trail to minimize impact. Dragging your sliders are included in this and if I come to a obstacle that by throwing a few rocks in keeps my body sliders from impacting a rock then so be it. Or if a deep rut is going to tip me into a wall to where I scrape on it oh well I'm tossing in a rock to avoid it.

People have lost the art of what we do and turned it into a demolition derby, it's not and if you don't think they can put you out of an area because you did too much damage think again, they can they have and they are doing just that and they use the impact we created to justify it. I know we all enjoy tackling a tough trail and conquering it but to what end? Why when there is a forest fire do they close the trails it crosses? So that we don't create more bandit trails, they feel they need to rehabilitate the area to stop us from running cross country off the trail.

Think about this the next time you are in the forest weaving in and out of pines rubbing against them, more fuel to kick you out. Trust me I've seen the evidence of this on several trails including SBNF and SNF, those that have done trails in those forests know exactly what I'm talking about.

One day you'll see what happens when a trail becomes an issue due to enviormental damage by offroaders, a couple good examples would be Coxey in Big Bear and Lockwood Creek Trail. Both are now gone and only one of them have been reopened but is now been rerouted.

If we still want to be able to do the thing we love then you really must look at the real cause of this, and it isn't tires, sliders, bumpers or anything that we hit, run over, bump or trample...... it's us.

[peacesells]

I do not believe in rock stacking... If your rig isnt built enough for the trail then stay off of it! youre only going to tear up your truck and or the trail trying to smash, grind, and stack youre way through. If you do stack rocks, UN-STACK them when youre done.. Stacking rocks is technically damaging the trail, and practically paving it for the guys who like a challenge. Ive run a half day trail in 20 minutes due to the jeep highway comission stacking every obstacle and filling every hole. It took us a half day to unpave it back to trail form again.  As stated many times above, big tires are not the problem, morons are the problem.

Highway to hell in fj used to be a tough trail until some super rock stacker winched a boulder off of the side of the hill to fill in the gatekeeper. Now the trail is full of tour book idiots on 33's out for a sunday drive that turns into an overnighter and a long hike back to the road.

A popular trail near phx was closed a few years back because idiots in underbuilt rigs would go trash and or roll their rigs then call AAA. It was deemed "unsafe" after a few drunks in a group got hurt in a rollover on a trail they had no buisness on in the first place.

If youre having a hard enough time on a trail to post in a forum about it, build your rig up, find a different trail, or ride with someone else. Or better yet, leave even less impact and hike it.

[Rocksurfer]

Just because you place a few rocks strategically to avoid damage does not mean your rig is not built enough for a trail. Building a rock highway is a little different than what I'm referring to. If I can work my way through a section without throwing in a rock then I do so, but if I'm going to start banging into stuff or leaning into walls just because someone is against it then I'm not in the USA. If I can throw a couple rocks in a rut that was created by erosion caused by our constant use then I will do so. Remove it, not going to happen. Those will slow erosion and further rutting.

As what has happened in the past, they (feds) will do one of two things when a trail becomes impassable, close it or blade it. Now knowing how much money they have to spend on maintaining the trails what do you think is going to happen?

Around 15 years ago Deep Creek became impassable at points and they bladed it, turned it from a triple diamond trail to the singe diamond it is today. Some of the same things have been happening on the Rubicon in recent years.

The new and improved thing to do is just close the trail and obliterate it until in is completely gone.

Unfortunately we cannot control what others do in their rigs and how they drive, I on the other hand have taken many what you call underbuilt rigs and run them without any trouble, it is all about education which they may have had none of. Most of the time people get into trouble taking the alternate tough section when they should have stayed on the main section to where they would have walked right through.

[WHITE_TRASH]

I've nearly had my limit with all the fighting we have to do in order to use PUBLIC land.  All the greenie bastards have twisted things into such a contortion that it is nearly impossible to go out and enjoy the trails at all let alone in a vehicle.

Much more and I'm going rogue.. I don't need YOUR permission to wheel, I don't need THEIR permission either.  Keep the trails as clean as you found them and enjoy.  "When wheeling is outlawed only outlaws will wheel"  Fact is I'll still be wheeling.

[46&2]

I've nearly had my limit with all the fighting we have to do in order to use PUBLIC land.  All the greenie bastards have twisted things into such a contortion that it is nearly impossible to go out and enjoy the trails at all let alone in a vehicle.

Much more and I'm going rogue.. I don't need YOUR permission to wheel, I don't need THEIR permission either.  Keep the trails as clean as you found them and enjoy.  "When wheeling is outlawed only outlaws will wheel"  Fact is I'll still be wheeling.

[<James>]

I've nearly had my limit with all the fighting we have to do in order to use PUBLIC land.  All the greenie b*stds have twisted things into such a contortion that it is nearly impossible to go out and enjoy the trails at all let alone in a vehicle.

Much more and I'm going rogue.. I don't need YOUR permission to wheel, I don't need THEIR permission either.  Keep the trails as clean as you found them and enjoy.  "When wheeling is outlawed only outlaws will wheel"  Fact is I'll still be wheeling.

That was deep, and well put

[peacesells]

 v

Just because you place a few rocks strategically to avoid damage does not mean your rig is not built enough for a trail. Building a rock highway is a little different than what I'm referring to. If I can work my way through a section without throwing in a rock then I do so, but if I'm going to start banging into stuff or leaning into walls just because someone is against it then I'm not in the USA. If I can throw a couple rocks in a rut that was created by erosion caused by our constant use then I will do so. Remove it, not going to happen. Those will slow erosion and further rutting.

You may be built enough for the trail, but if youre unwilling to take some body damage on a trail that will give you body damage, youre in a place you should not be. Youre changing the trail to suit your wants, and what you want is not neccisarily what everyone else wants. In all of the hundreds of trails I have run, I have never wheeled with a single person who was proud of stacking rocks... I go wheelin for the challenge, excitment, adrenaline rush, scenery, and overall experience. It pisses me off when I show up to a trail and someone filled in all the rutts and stacked all of the ledges. Do you shovel the trail before you go snow wheelin?

[Rocksurfer]

v
You may be built enough for the trail, but if youre unwilling to take some body damage on a trail that will give you body damage, youre in a place you should not be. Youre changing the trail to suit your wants, and what you want is not neccisarily what everyone else wants. In all of the hundreds of trails I have run, I have never wheeled with a single person who was proud of stacking rocks... I go wheelin for the challenge, excitment, adrenaline rush, scenery, and overall experience. It pisses me off when I show up to a trail and someone filled in all the rutts and stacked all of the ledges. Do you shovel the trail before you go snow wheelin?

First off BRAVO WT!!!

Never said I was unwilling to take some body damage and I have on rare occasion. I am proud to say I've probably have more miles and hours offroad than most people here and have done most all trails in Calif. and AZ and have never even laid any of my trucks on its side.

All trails are in constant change and is one of the things I love about them, they are almost always different every time I tackle them.

I also go for the exact reasons you do, and more it is beyond that for me it's is part of who I am. If you came up a trail after me you probably would even notice if I tossed a rock. I'm not saying that I spend my day tossing rocks, in fact quite the opposite is true. It is a rarity that I even need one, but if I do.... you know what I'm going to do.

Now I never indicated that I make rock stacker highways or call in Caltrans to make me a highway, what I did say is I will always toss in a couple well placed rocks to protect my truck and the surrounding environment to limit my impact on the area, if I'm going to hit a wall and it will take just a couple rocks to keep that from happening then it will be done. If a well placed rock will aid my traction  on an obstacle then in goes the rock. Chances are they will roll out of the hole anyways. If and I mean if there is no other alternative and I'm gonna hit my truck then and only then will I accept the damage.

[Rocksurfer]

Oh and I do know and realize my rigs limits and have stepped aside and parked it while others move ahead, but I also can take an inferior rig far beyond its advertised limits it just depends on the rig and how comfy I am in it. It is more about my limits over the vehicles, if I can overcome the vehicles limits then the rest is cake.

[WHITE_TRASH]

I don't stack rocks or take bypass's.  If I do either than all the money I've dumped into my big dumb truck was a waste.

[peacesells]

Good to hear, I was worried about you there for a second... haha. Anyways, this year in az, 3 days of rain changed the trails more than 10 years of our use. It was amazing to see how much harder some trails got and how much easier other trails got.