Topic: Braking Problems.

[lilbuddy]

OK so Ive been chasing down this braking problems for a while. Back about 8 months ago I put on new front pads because they were grinding, bad. Not ony did I put on new pads I put on new rotors. After that the braking was AWESOME! So I drive it for a while and the braking starts to go down more. Not till recently have the brakes been total crap. Ive had to pump them at least 3 tiems to get pressure before being able to stop, totally sketchy. So I put on a new master cyl and that heped it pretty good till it went out (it was used off my old truck) So Shamb gave me his Cressida master cyl to put on, I slapped that puppy on thinking the brakes would be tits, but no. It barely helped my braking. So Ive been running it till last night my runner was making terrible amounts of squeaking from the rear. So I pulled it apart this morning and realized i had a leaky driver side wheel cylinder and on both sides the shoes were completely gone. So today I put on new shoes and wheel cylinders on both sides, bleed the brakes 3 times and then drove it. The brakes werent that good at all and you had to pump it once to get a good amount (like pedal 1/2" down) and when you pumped it, it had a lot of pressure but did not stop worth a So I drive it back home bleed again and also bleeding the LSPV this time and when I hit the brakes it felt like it stopped good but when I hit them HARD the pedal went to the floor there was a nasty popping sound and NO PEDAL WHATSOEVER! So I get out to wash out the garage, pissed off from all the work ive done and look at my DRIVER SIDE rear tire and notice its leaking massive amounts of brake fluid... I dont get whats going on with that pile of crap anymore. What else should I try?

I think the master cyl might be bad though too because on the vaccuum boost ther has been brake fluid on it. Im ready to drive it off a cliff.

[93tonkatoy]

  Don't Do It!!!!

if there is any indication of where the fluid is coming from,  you can figure out pretty closely what is wrong. If it is coming from the inside of the drum, I'd say it's a wheel cyl. cheap and easy fix. If it is coming from the outside of the backing plate, I would say possibly a cracked, or broken brake line or a loose connection/bleeder. If you find that the wheel cyl. has blown out, I would change them both (both rears). As for the MC, clean all of the fluid off of the outside, and fill it with fluid, then let it sit overnight. this should show any EXTERNAL leaks. if the problem is internal, the fluid will be coming to the interior of the cab. Also it could be a connection at the MC of one of the brake lines, or between the reservoir and the MC.

and be sure to clean the old brake fluid off of the drums.

I did the front brakes on my truck using a c-clamp to compress the pistons. one side got REAL tight, then POOF! brake fluid went everywhere. After cleaning up the mess and inpecting what happened, my fuel line had been rubbing against it for a while, and made a weak spot in the brake line. Glad that happened at home and not on the road. I blocked off that line (the line to the rear brakes) and it stopped fine. Finally, later, I swapped the line out.

stick with it. you'll get it dialed in.
 

[lilbuddy [OP]]

I already replaced the rear wheel cylinders, both of them. Only the driver was leaking BEFORE and so i decided i might as well do both. The NEW ONES are leaking and its from the wheel cylinder on the driver side again.

I dont know what else it could be... Maybe the front calipers suck and are leaking? I dont know. It sure does shoot out brake fluid when i pump them so I think the fronts are still good.

[93tonkatoy]

and the fluid is coming out from the inside of the drum?

did you replace the wheel cyl's or rebuild them?

It could be that some of the linkage in the wheel is not set up right: popped a piston out of the slave.

[brainlessfool]

how did you adjust the rears? commin misstake is to not adjust the rears up enuf.

it makes the peddle og down and could make the rears blow out too.

[lilbuddy [OP]]

and the fluid is coming out from the inside of the drum?

Yes

did you replace the wheel cyl's or rebuild them?

Brand new

how did you adjust the rears? commin misstake is to not adjust the rears up enuf.

it makes the peddle og down and could make the rears blow out too.

Adjusted fine. Shoes werent too tight on the drums but also not too loose

[lilbuddy [OP]]

The brakes were nice and tight after the driver side wheel cylinder blew out BUT it just did not stop worth a I had my foot TO THE FLOOR and it was tight but was not even locking my brakes on wet pavement

[brainlessfool]

well not knowing what you mean by "fine" the thing I try to  do is get them so that with the wheel on I can turn them with both hands, not "hard" but not freely.
if you can make them spin at all there  loose. as they are new they will wear off the top bit fast. not calling ya  just can't put my hands on them and "fine" realy don't tell me much as it's an opion.


p.s. when I said "make them spin" I meant if you can grab them and give them a good hard fast trun and they "spin" a trun or two. not just "make them move at all"

meassage borads are great, butt some times the finer points can come out all wrong!

[lilbuddy [OP]]

They mighta been too loose at first yes. The pedal was still "fine" haha, the pedal was pretty hard but youd just have to pump it once so yes, I think they were too loose.

[93tonkatoy]

when are you planning to pull the drum? to see what's up.

when you do, post up pics and especially one of the drum. is there a "wear lip" on the edge of the drum? and did you adjust the starwheel after installing the drum or while installing the drum? i know a lot of people slide the drum on and off while adjusting, and if the drum has a lip, it won't be right. works good if you install new drums, though.

[brainlessfool]

when are you planning to pull the drum? to see what's up.

when you do, post up pics and especially one of the drum. is there a "wear lip" on the edge of the drum? and did you adjust the starwheel after installing the drum or while installing the drum? i know a lot of people slide the drum on and off while adjusting, and if the drum has a lip, it won't be right. works good if you install new drums, though.

well said!

[lilbuddy [OP]]

when are you planning to pull the drum? to see what's up.

when you do, post up pics and especially one of the drum. is there a "wear lip" on the edge of the drum? and did you adjust the starwheel after installing the drum or while installing the drum? i know a lot of people slide the drum on and off while adjusting, and if the drum has a lip, it won't be right. works good if you install new drums, though.

No lip on the drums at all. I did it while putting the drums on.

[fordh8r]

are the drums new also Lilbuddy?  You said you replaced the wheel cylinders and shoes cause they were gone (or did you mean completely worn and not metal to metal?)  If they were metal to metal you say that didn't do any damage to the drums (no lip)?

[lilbuddy [OP]]

OK

THE DRUMS ARE PERFECT WITH NO GROOVES OR LIPS!!!

I know you guys are trying to help but you guys seem to be missing that I had a good pedal BUT NO BRAKING POWER at all. It feels as if they are wet, thats what it seems likes. YES I CLEANED THE BRAKES. The fronts have probably 90% on them and also the rotors on them are good and not covered in grease.

Im not worried about the pedal, im worried about how the DRIVER SIDE REAR wheel cylinder has gone out twice. I dont get that. Im also worried that I have good pedal but not  very good braking. I do not understand these issues

[93tonkatoy]

Sorry for asking the same questions in different ways, but we're trying to help figure out everything that may contribute to the situation. Now bear with me while I think through this.

1. If you have to pump the pedal to get resistance, one of the following is the case:
     a- there is air in the brake line.
     b- there is excessive clearance between shoes and drum or pad and rotor.
 I know you said you bled the brakes 3 times, and you had good pedal pressure. and you also bled the LSPV.

I am leaning more towards b- in that the internal linkage may have gotten misaligned and the starwheel adjuster may have come out of place, leaving nothing to keep the piston from popping out of the cyl. But this is just speculation. When you take the drum off, would it be possible to take a pic and post it? This has got me .

The adjuster problem i just mentioned happened to my wife's car. The adjuster wasn't functioning (it's an auto trans and she doesn't use the e-brake, so, no adjustment), and the pedal went further and further. then one day she got home and told me it was grinding really bad. i pulled the drum off, and the starwheel had fallen out of place and was grinding against the side of the drum.

But, like I said, it will all be speculation until you open it back up and see what has happened. Then, we can better figure out WHY.


P.S. aren't there two drum sizes for toy rear axles? I'm not sure, but when i redid the rears on my 2wd, i seem to remember them asking me which i had. maybe they gave you the wrong ones (brake shoes or drums - you didn't say if the drums were new, or just in new shape)? shot in the dark, but worth asking.

[fordh8r]

OK

THE DRUMS ARE PERFECT WITH NO GROOVES OR LIPS!!!

I know you guys are trying to help but you guys seem to be missing that I had a good pedal BUT NO BRAKING POWER at all. It feels as if they are wet, thats what it seems likes. YES I CLEANED THE BRAKES. The fronts have probably 90% on them and also the rotors on them are good and not covered in grease.

Im not worried about the pedal, im worried about how the DRIVER SIDE REAR wheel cylinder has gone out twice. I dont get that. Im also worried that I have good pedal but not  very good braking. I do not understand these issues

Were your drums and rotors machined? If not that may be the problem with how they felt. Often times even though the surfaces look flat and smooth they are not.  If so, then the nice flat surface of the shoes and pads don't fully contact over their entire surface and will minimze braking effectiveness until they have fully seated. Even new ones or freshly machined ones don't stop so great at first until they've been properly seated.

But first, find out what the leak is then maybe consider machining at least the fronts since they do most of your stopping and it may keep them from getting noisy as well.

  1) When you take the drum off, would it be possible to take a pic and post it?

  2) P.S. aren't there two drum sizes for toy rear axles?

   1) yes, please do... and take pics of the shoes in the drum (off the truck, of course)

  2)  I believe the difference may be between 2wd and 4wd also the V6 ones are larger yet.  Not sure if a larger one will fit completely since it may not engage the backing  plate without hitting, Just a guess though...

[lilbuddy [OP]]

They are 4wd shoes and the same 4wd drums. The drums did not need to be turned. Took them to an automotive shop, asked a guy and he said theyre good, run it. I probably wont pull it apart till later beacuse I just dont want to do it now. I still had good pressure without even having to pump it but i had great pressure if i pumped it once. I just could not stop at all.

[brainlessfool]

I still had good pressure without even having to pump it but i had great pressure if i pumped it once. I just could not stop at all.

ok, drums glaced, and shoes to far out.

[lilbuddy [OP]]

OK I fixed it. Pretty much a spring came undone on the rear driver side and when i hit the brakes the wheel cyl came all the way out and bye bye brake fluid.

Got that fixed and have great pedal now BUT the only thing wrong now is it jsut doesnt stop as well as i thought it did before. Maybe it is, maybe it isnt, I dont totally remember, but it just doesnt seem as good. I dont even know...

[fordh8r]

OK I fixed it. Pretty much a spring came undone on the rear driver side and when i hit the brakes the wheel cyl came all the way out and bye bye brake fluid.

Got that fixed and have great pedal now BUT the only thing wrong now is it jsut doesnt stop as well as i thought it did before. Maybe it is, maybe it isnt, I dont totally remember, but it just doesnt seem as good. I dont even know...

Cool, now you just need to drive it a bit for the new stuff to seat and it should start to work like you remember unless it feels totally unsafe then check into it some more. 

[lilbuddy [OP]]

Cool, now you just need to drive it a bit for the new stuff to seat and it should start to work like you remember unless it feels totally unsafe then check into it some more. 

Oh no it still stops good, just doesnt feel like its stoppping like it used to (back when i had new brake pads in the front and before everything went to )

Im actually really dissapointed in myself in how the brakes got so messed up in the rear. and me never checking them or anything. They have never squeaked till the day i did check them and there was NO BRAKE PAD at all left on the shoe and they were bent and...wow it was all bad.

[fordh8r]

  Cheer up there, Lilbuddy!  We've all had bad ones now and again. If you haven't had a bad day doing this stuff you haven't been doing it long enough...   Don't worry something is bound to turn out right. When you figure it all out you'll be that much smarter when it comes to that! 

[93tonkatoy]

I don't know what the differences are, but are you still using the MC from the cressida? if so, that may be changing the "feel" of the pedal pressure. same amount of pedal pressure = less wheel pressure? anybody know what i mean who can explain it better?

[lilbuddy [OP]]

I don't know what the differences are, but are you still using the MC from the cressida? if so, that may be changing the "feel" of the pedal pressure. same amount of pedal pressure = less wheel pressure? anybody know what i mean who can explain it better?

Yes I am but it should be more pressure considering its a 1/8" bigger diameter bore then stock. I think its just back to normal and im just trying to stop 37's and thats probably why. I only thought my truck stopped better before, it probably didnt.

[Hammerhead]

Here's a trick from my racing days.  Every few races all brake friction surfaces are sanded down just a hair with a crosshatch pattern.  You can also sand the glazing off of the diisc/drum while you are at it.  Do it by hand and NOT a power sander as you don't want to take off too much or make flat spots.  I know this sounds crazy but it makes a huge difference in a small amount of time. 

[fordh8r]

Yes I am but it should be more pressure considering its a 1/8" bigger diameter bore then stock. I think its just back to normal and im just trying to stop 37's and thats probably why. I only thought my truck stopped better before, it probably didnt.

That would seem to be logical but not true. With a larger bore MC you can move more fluid but it comes at a price! 

  Either you apply more effort (at the pedal) in creating the same pressure (at the wheels) to do so OR a bigger booster might do the trick. Maybe the one from where the master came from. (something to look at and may be your best option) This will or should improve your pedal feel and won't change your pedal travel. When I put my V6 master on mine I also installed the booster from the same unit as well. Not to mention, I also had the V6 rear brakes which had the larger bore wheel cylinders (which can also make a difference). Maybe even compare the other hardware from the donor vehicle which from where you got your master... A little research can go a long way! 

                                                                OR (not recommended)

  You have to Increase your leverage to regain the pressure either by moving the attaching point of the master's push rod higher up the pedal arm OR make the pedal longer to be able to apply more pressure. (like a cheater bar, kinda)

 If the latter two are possible it would make up for the more fluid being pushed and not change the effective travel of the pedal itself.

  I'll assume you also have steel braded lines on your rig as well...    Those can help a lot as well in containing the pressure so your brakes will feel and work better.  Oh and the 37's aren't helping either. Try running the size tire you had before to see if they feel like they did. Then see how they feel.

[lilbuddy [OP]]

Thats true. The pedal is fine and the braking is getting better. I think that there mighta been some brake fluid on the pads even though i cleaned them off with brake cleaner and its burning away now. Im goin to check it out this weekend and make sure everything in there is working well too.

Im not too worried with it because I can stop now and i have great pressure.

I can, but am not going to, run the tires that were on before, they were 31s haha.

[fordh8r]

I can, but am not going to, run the tires that were on before, they were 31s haha.

That'll make 'em feel different...   Well, cool, Sounds like you may have this licked, huh? 

[lilbuddy [OP]]

That'll make 'em feel different...   Well, cool, Sounds like you may have this licked, huh? 

Well its good enough for me. Better then none at all