Blackdiamond (Gup-C build-up)

[blackdiamond]

I'm really happy with how it's turning out so far.  I'm more curious to see what he come up with in the back.  At this point I'm just planning to wait until I get a call that it's done.

Well, I failed in my attempt to just wait to hear that it's done. Patrick is a cool guy and doesn't seem to mind my calls or emails. It sounds like the front is painted and back in and just needs a few spots final welded and touch-up painted. There is a center roof bar which I assumed to be the case based on every cage I have seen him do.  They always look thoughtful and beefy.  It also sounds like the rear is completely bent and fitted on one side. I should be getting another picture once all of the bars are tacked in and ready for final welding and painting.  He said he will likely be able to predict the end date around midday tomorrow. I assured him that there was no rush on my end.

[blackdiamond]

I realized this morning on my walk to work that had I opted to go with a cage kit rather than a custom job the possibility of my KTT soft top not fitting would have been very real.  I provide both the hard top and soft top for this work so it'll work out perfectly.  Since the decision was made to go with a custom cage I hadn't really thought about how I might have handled the soft top if I had opted for a cage kit to be installed.  Kind of makes me think that I dodged a bullet...

[Gnarly4X]

Speaking about "dodging a bullet"....  Just to add some commentary to your cage project and safety...

The 4-wheel Toy trucks and other wheeling vehicles I've sat in that had a full cage installed, custom fabricated ones, and some home-made shop cages, and just the simple bolt-in roll bars, I believe I would design a minimal amount of crash protection, primarily engineered for a rollover that would protect the driver and passenger from the front of the cab collapsing (2 seater pickup).  Of course, with a 4Runner, then that protection would need to be extended to protect any passengers in the rear of the front seats.

I would opt for chromoly rather than mild steel DOM (lighter, smaller, but more expensive), and look at the smallest possible diameter DOM tubing.  I would definitely use the tubing clamps for pieces that may need to be removed for whatever reason.  For my truck, I would definitely use the tab-grommet-bolt design and weld them to the frame rails – not the floor pan.

I've been in 3 rollover accidents, so I have some strong opinions about what I believe will work best for my protection and the protection of my passenger, while not taking up any more space than necessary.

Here are some photos of the last one I was in. I have probably described this event before.

I was driving, my wife was seated next to me, both of us had our safety belts on, I going about 35 to 40 MPH, smooth gravel road, on the flat. The bed was loaded down and full for a 3-day water ski trip.  The front left tire caught a 1 foot high berm of loose gravel, it sucked the truck into a vertical wall. The truck went up the wall, ricocheted off, did a 180 degree flip in the air, and came down hard on the shiny side, then rolled over onto the driver's side. 

The cab collapsed into my head. Thankfully the impact stalled the engine. I felt like something hit me on the top of my head. I stayed conscious and immediately checked the condition of my wife. She said "I'm OK". Then my next immediate thought was fire. Since I was partially pinned into my seat, I had an intense sense of urgency!  I was able reach the ignition key and turned it off. I then realized the amount glass all over us. The slider was completely blown out from the cab compressing the air inside cab (we had our windows up).  I told my wife that she would have to climb out the back window and I would have to release her safety belt and she will fall on me. Once she got out safely, I worked on getting myself unpinned. I managed to slither myself out the back of the cab.

There's more to the event, buy my point is to show what happens to a 1985 Toyota truck cab in a hard crash.  A multiple rollover down the side of a mountain could be way worse.

A roll cage is on my list of things I will have designed and installed sooner than later.

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

I would opt for chromoly rather than mild steel DOM (lighter, smaller, but more expensive), and look at the smallest possible diameter DOM tubing.  I would definitely use the tubing clamps for pieces that may need to be removed for whatever reason. 

The 4x Innovations passenger length roll cage for my 4Runner weighs approx. 125 lbs and uses 1.75" x 0.120" DOM (or HREW).  The cage I'm getting will be similar but uses 1.50" x 0.120" for the spreaders which will reduce the weight slightly and save a little space.

Obviously, having a roll cage attached directly to the frame is superior to only being connected to the floor pan, but I'm curious about your preference for going with the "smallest possible diameter" and also the use of clamps vice having it welded solid.  I'm sure you know that the larger the diameter the more capacity it has resisting bending and I don't think a bolted connection is ever the equal of fully welded.  Going with smaller diameter tubing could be done safely, but might require more bracing.  As with everything, there's a balance between strength and inconvenience when it comes to cages.  This is one reason that I chose to go custom at the shop that I did.  Their online portfolio clearly shows high quality fabrication and thoughtful designs.

It seems that 1.75" x 0.120" DOM is a pretty universal solution for roll cages and I assume that it isn't just by accident, it seems to do the job.  I think the judicious use of 1.50" x 0.120" DOM can be done without compromising the overall strength of the cage.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi blackdiamond,

Good discussion...

First, I'm not a structural engineer, so I would consult with an engineer and a certified welder (or a shop like 4X Innovations) to determine if my "thinking" has options for minimizing space while maintaining the minimum structural strength.

The damage to the pickup trucks, and other vehicles I've seen in the 26 years living here AZ,  mostly single vehicle rollovers, most have some degree of collapsed roofs, which seems to be most often to the front of the cab and roof – which for pickups appears to be structurally the weaker part of the entire cab?  Were the Federal vehicle standards for crash protection in 1986 different than today?... e.g. no air bags.

The cage design for a competition race vehicle or seriously wheeled crawler is most likely subjected to a greater chance of crashing versus a daily driver.  Crawling in and out of 4-wheeler or fully caged race vehicle and strapping yourself into a 5-point harness is entirely different than getting in and out of a daily driver, with comfy seats, and just the safety belt.  The guys I know who have cages often commented on how many times they bumped their heads on it - both just getting in or out and while wheeling - so I would want a design to avoid head trauma where possible... foam padding helps, but takes up lots of space.

Yes, there is a "standard" size used and spec'd in sanctioned race organizations like NASCAR and NHRA.

Can a design include a smaller OD and perhaps a thicker wall that will maintain the necessary strength?

Adding even 100 lbs. to my truck was surprisingly noticeable at times. At the sand dunes less weight was very noticeable, e.g. removing the tail gate and spare tire, and no tool boxes.  BUT... as you said - there's a required balance between structural integrity, convenience and weight.

Tube clamps vs. welded... from what I've read, I believe high quality tube clamps and tabs/bolts can be used for tubing where the predicted forces in a crash would not be great enough to compromise the overall strength of the design.

Without being belted in, the best designed cage will instantly become way less of a safety factor for protection.

At the end of my research and consultations, I would rely on the experts to design and install the right cage or roll bars for my truck.

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

You should get them to take the visors off before they make it impossible.  Then if you end up using those ATV visors you won't have redundant visors.

The visors have been confirmed as removed.

Some pictures from some of the other work going on in the shop (while my paint dries) were posted on FB.  He did a set of custom headers for a hot rod that were a bit larger and fit tighter allowing more clearance for steering.  His hot rod show car quality work is one reason I chose him to do the work along with his portfolio of sweet cages. He has competed in WERock competitions in rigs that he has built as well.

[H8PVMNT]

I have had my trucked rolled by a buddy with an all pro cage kit we welded together at home and it did the job just fine bolted to the floor pan with large, sandwiched floor plates. 

I had a buddy in a YJ with a really chinsy cage with the front runners just barely tacked to the floor and the cage did it's job just fine.  This was a really violent roll over with multiple flippies in the air.

This is the video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4rY7Y6wgYA 

FYI this guy sold all his stuff and quit wheeling after this  .

He came away with only a scratched head.  My point is that it is important to have some kind of cage in your wheeling rigs.  I don't think you need to hire or be an engineer to have it be effective.  Nothing wrong with it if you do, but I think guys tend to put off installing roll protection because they think they can't afford it or do it themselves.  Just make something and use common sense, it can be as minimal or as bassassy as you want, as long as it is stout enough to keep you from getting squished and protects the area you intend to sit.  And wear your seat belts for cryin' out loud!  The best cage in the world isn't going to help you when you are ejected from the vehicle.

[blackdiamond]

I've ridden in a truck with the cage tied to the frame and I don't know if it was other factors at play but it had all kinds of drivetrain noise transmitting through the cage not to mention constant squeaks and creaks while driving,  especially off road. Although obviously not quite as strong, I would also tie into the body so my body mounts are still effective

4x Innovations sells a frame tie in kit that uses bushing that should help eliminate some of the vibration.

[joeyf]

You still get vibrations with a tie in kit like 4x. The best way I have found when making cages, to eliminate them and still tie into the frame. I put new body mounts in then put my mounting plates on top of them, so my cage is mounted over the body mounts.

[Gnarly4X]

4x Innovations sells a frame tie in kit that uses bushing that should help eliminate some of the vibration.

BINGO.. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

...  My point is that it is important to have some kind of cage in your wheeling rigs.  I don't think you need to hire or be an engineer to have it be effective.  Nothing wrong with it if you do, but I think guys tend to put off installing roll protection because they think they can't afford it or do it themselves.  Just make something and use common sense, it can be as minimal or as bassassy as you want, as long as it is stout enough to keep you from getting squished and protects the area you intend to sit.  And wear your seat belts for cryin' out loud!  The best cage in the world isn't going to help you when you are ejected from the vehicle.

Agree... big 10-4!!

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

My point is that it is important to have some kind of cage in your wheeling rigs.  I don't think you need to hire or be an engineer to have it be effective.  Nothing wrong with it if you do, but I think guys tend to put off installing roll protection because they think they can't afford it or do it themselves.  Just make something and use common sense, it can be as minimal or as bassassy as you want, as long as it is stout enough to keep you from getting squished and protects the area you intend to sit.  And wear your seat belts for cryin' out loud!  The best cage in the world isn't going to help you when you are ejected from the vehicle.

I have been wheeling my 89 4Runner or 85 truck since 2001 without a cage and honestly have only come close to rolling the 4Runner once (White Knuckle attempt) and the truck maybe twice (Rocker Knocker attempt that was saved by two people loading a strap that we had attached and my dad got close dropping into Cliff Hanger).  In every case it would have been a "slow" roll where I would have expected, at most, something similar to the pictures Gnarly posted.

I've always considered that my biggest risk is a highway accident where a high speed rollover is the most likely outcome.  I'm not convinced that any cage is likely to keep me alive in that scenario as I could easily take a major blow to the head even with padding on the roll bar.  I guess I could choose to wear a brain bucket but at some point you just have to evaluate the risk and make a choice.

Because my kids will be riding in the back (hard top and soft top) I feel that they are far more exposed behind the 4Runner steel cab so made the choice to take things to the next step.  It'll be interesting to see how much impact the cage really has on my ride comfort, maybe I'll be kicking myself for not doing this sooner.

I actually use the 4crawler spacers under the back of the driver's seat to give me better visibility over the hood so I may be forced to take those out if they are the difference between banging my head and not.  I hope to be able to keep them as I really prefer the vantage point even though I'm 6'-0" tall.

All I want for Christmas is a picture of the rear part of the cage...

[H8PVMNT]

Yeah the possible 70 mph highway rollover is what I find most frightening.  Most trail flops are just an amusement park ride compared to that. I think your cage is going to be plenty stout though.

[blackdiamond]

Yeah the possible 70 mph highway rollover is what I find most frightening.  Most trail flops are just an amusement park ride compared to that. I think your cage is going to be plenty stout though.

If the cage isn't the cause of my demise it'll for sure be what saves me in highway rollover.

[blackdiamond]

Here's a couple more pictures.  Sounds like it just needs to have some final welds (which includes installing the passenger side handle in the front and some additional roof supports in the back) and touch up paint done.

[joeyf]

Looks good. With the 4runner cage you loose the rear grab handles, what I did to help my kids get in easier, is mounted one of them onthe passenger side. This ended up helping them and anyone else, get in the back quite a bit.

[blackdiamond]

I requested a horizontal bar in the back so that I will have something to anchor the car seat tethers to rather than having to angle it to the tie-down on the floor.  It was never part of anything we had talked about so I asked for an "ala carte" estimate. He simply replied they could do it.  Normally when they do a seat belt bar it is the continuous bar so this will end up being the opposite.

[Willard]

Are you going to get any cross bars on top of the rear seating area?


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[Gnarly4X]

I requested a horizontal bar in the back so that I will have something to anchor the car seat tethers to rather than having to angle it to the tie-down on the floor.  It was never part of anything we had talked about so I asked for an "ala carts" estimate. He simply replied they could do it.  Normally when they do a seat belt bar it is the continuous bar so this will end up being the opposite.

Hey blackdiamond,

Obviously you are giving this project good thought.

You most likely already know this, but if I had children my focus for their safety while traveling in my vehicle, whether highway or off-road, would be on their seats.  I saw too many injuries at the dunes because the person was not properly strapped in their seat.  And, I probably broke my back in my 1980 sand rail accident because I did NOT have my harness fastened properly.  Because it did not have a crotch strap (anti-sub belt), upon impact I submarined out of the seat.

On my 3rd sand rail, I installed a 5 point harness, my rule was simple.... I did not start the engine unless my belt was fastened and my passenger's belt was adjusted and fastened. 

If I were installing safe and comfortable seats for my kids, I would focus on the type of seats, how they are mounted and the belts.  The most technically designed roll cage in the world won't mean anything if the occupants are not properly strapped in the event of a rollover or other impact.

My wife's daughter was driving a relatively new GM Saturn about 18 years ago. She had her 2 year daughter strapped in a child safety seat in the rear seat.  She was hit by a drunk driver, the impact ripped the mounting bolts of the rear seat out of the floor – obviously a pathetic engineering design failure.. Fortunately, the little girl only recieved minor injuries.  The seat belt safety issues are ongoing in the auto industry.  For example, you can Google Toyota safety issues with safety belts, it is alarming.

My point is that the forces generated in an accident are much greater than most us realize, and trusting the automobile's safety features and other aftermarket safety equipment may need scrutiny.

Your roll cage project is looking good! 

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

Are you going to get any cross bars on top of the rear seating area?


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Yes.  There will be some additional bars in the roof area.

My kids have fantastic car seats and the biggest concern in the 4Runner is that there isn't a great tether point so having the extra bar will allow me to use the strap that is for anchoring to front seat in the rear facing configuration. My son is getting close the officially outgrowing his car seat and will transition to a full booster that will correctly position the shoulder belt. Because the 4Runner only has lap belts in the rear he will likely stay in the car seat longer to maximize on the 5-point harness. I think that having his shoulder straps a little lower than is idea is better than none at all.

[blackdiamond]

Here are a few examples of some of his past work.  I was sort of anticipating my cage to have a bit of a Jeep cage configuration with it ending at the rear wheel wells, so I can only speculate as to what the roof bars might look like.  He seems to prefer a "V" configuration so I would guess something similar is in the works.

Yesterday's project, per Facebook, was a welding party on the FTH pro-mod chassis.  It's owner works in the same building as I do, but I don't know him well at all.

Earlier this week he finished up some custom headers for a hot rod.

[blackdiamond]

I am sure that the soft top frame is the limiting factor in the back as there is clearly plenty of clearance with the hard top. Going with a kit like 4x Innovations or Exo Fab probably would have likely not worked out as well.

[joeyf]

Sounds like they still have some things to add. Something you can think about adding is a storage bin right behind the back seat. When I built my friends cage I had a atv cargo rack laying around. So built a simple shelf for it to sit on. After we went in a different direction with his runner it ended up in mine. The rack ended up working out great for the kids to put there stuff in so its not all over the back seat.

[blackdiamond]

I am finally exercising some patience and have not asked for an update this week. The last update he thought it would be complete midweek so I am hoping to hear something tomorrow or Thursday.

[blackdiamond]

One spreader needs to be welded and a little touch up painting. I am planning to pick up the 4Runner after work today.

[blackdiamond]

I have a plan in place to drive the 4Runner to George's house to drop the hard top so that I can trial fit and run the soft top for a while.  Should also make for some good photo opportunities.

[blackdiamond]

I don't have a camera on my work phone but the cage is great. I have barely touched the tips of my shoes going in and out and have only brushed the bill of my hat. I can rock my head to the door side and not touch my hat so the clearance is great. The diagonal roof bar in the rear might be a head buster for an adult, but I have the soft top in the back so can't check it out for sure.

[OVRAROK]

  cant wait to see some pics, a little cage porn 

[blackdiamond]

Here are the pictures I took with the hard top installed after picking it up.

[blackdiamond]

Here are the pictures with the hard top off.