Blackdiamond (Gup-C build-up)

[blackdiamond]

It's a vibration riddle:

I'm starting to wonder if something is going to fall off of my 4Runner before I get the vibration figured out.  I drove it a bit today to go get the tires rotated and balanced to take them out of the equation and nothing changed.  The driveshaft was recently balanced and had new u-joints installed.  I just checked the rear driveline angles and there can't be more than 3 degrees of difference between the face of the differential flange and the driveshaft (plus I don't think the driveline angles have changed).  My mechanic noted that one of my tie-rod ends was in need of replacement soon the last time he looked at it.  I have an appointment with him to figure out the vibration at the end of November and will likely have him swap out all three tie-rod ends in my high steer at the same time.  I don't see how a worn out tie-rod end could result in the vibration that I'm feeling.

I've had a vibration in the 60 mph range (worse under torque) for awhile and getting the driveshaft fixed up just made the vibration feel more sharp.  I assume that the slop in the u-joints was providing some damping between the source of the vibration and the seat of my pants.  Now I have a consistent vibration in the 30-35 mph range that results in some vibration in the steering wheel and I can feel it even while coasting.  The low speed vibration feels more front than rear, but I've always thought the high speed vibration was from the rear.

I took my kids to school this morning and they noticed it.  Something has changed (or is changing).  Any ideas?  I will clearly need to get this figured out before making any trips.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey BD...

Analyzing vibration sources over the internet is like sniffing flowers through your butt.

I had vibrations in my 85 and it drove my nuts.

I disconnected the rear driveline and drove the truck with the front hubs locked to isolate front and rear diffs. It's a little tricky because the front end will torque steer.

I also put the truck on jacks stands, had my wife in the truck and slowly raise the RPM up and down while I was lying under it looking and listening.

I had to put angle shims under the rear axle pads to correct the pinion angle after raising the truck and going to 33's.

Wheel bearings, loose wheel lugs, worn steering damper, badly worn steering tie rods, and worn or loose motor mounts *may* be a cause?

It sounds like you have really gone through this diagnosing process, so I just threw out some things that came to mind.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

BD... I just remembered.. I had a Camry with new tires put on.

I had a bad vibration at freeway speeds.

I went back to Discount Tire.  I said "I want to see the tires and rim on your balancer before you put any back on my car.

They rebalanced them and said "They balanced perfectly, but a couple were out of round.

I said "Well, of course!!  You can balance a tire the shape of a football on your balancer.. but it will not go down the road smoothly!

The brand new tires were out of round!!

I had them replace all 4 tires!!  Vibrations gone.

That's probably not your issue, but I just remembered that.


Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

Well, the 4Runner goes into the shop tomorrow to have the tie-rod ends replaced and the vibrations evaluated.  I don't know what variant the vibration is, but it seems to have spread to my 2004 Sequoia.

Here's the Sequoia riddle:
Several weeks ago I picked the kids up from school and was headed home driving in nasty windy rainy weather.  The Sequoia started a weird noise and vibration that I can only describe as sounding like a very flat tire combined with an inner fender being caught in the tire.  I stopped and tried to take a looked under it and couldn't see anything that looked out of place.  I was close to my mechanic, so stopped by and he took a brief look under it, went for a drive (didn't do it as per expected), so torqued the wheels to make sure nothing was going to fall off and I headed home.  It happened again last Friday while driving in town.  It causes some drag and some vibration in the steering wheel.  It feels like it's coming from the passenger front corner and the second time I'd swear the vibration when all the way to the back.  Then it stops and leaves no trace.  I was driving between 20 and 40 mph.  Any guesses?  It's hard to diagnose something that's so intermittent.

[Gnarly4X]

....  Any guesses?  It's hard to diagnose something that's so intermittent.

Wow... so this may take some serious mental masturbation!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Here's the Sequoia riddle:
Several weeks ago I picked the kids up from school and was headed home driving in nasty windy rainy weather.

This could be something as simple a plastic cowling or air dam under the vehicle that has come loose and "flaps" in the wind.

Vibrations are typically caused by a rotating mass.

Attempting to diagnose the source of an intermittent vibration or sound is like a repeating nightmare.

Someone on Pirate once said many years ago.. "Trying to diagnose vibrations over the internet is like sniffing flowers through your butt." 

There's lots of experienced members here and with your experience and resources the mystery will be solved.

That kind of mystery would drive me nuts!

Gnarls.

[liveoak]

 guess #1-electrical short when wet in abs or related wiring causing the traction/stability control to misbehave. also abs ring signal malfunction. put a code reader on to see if there are any pending codes.
guess #2-sticking calipers (rear drums if applicable) or ebrake issue.
guess #3-is it 4wd? maybe when it gets wet, there is a short or something in the 4wd actuator or harness causing it to attempt to engage. don't know about the sequoia, but the 4wd actuator is usually on the passenger side inner axle. never heard of this happening just throwing it out there.

whatever the problem is, the vibration you feel could just be the electronics(vsc/abs) reacting to a perceived condition that's not really there.

[blackdiamond]

guess #1-electrical short when wet in abs or related wiring causing the traction/stability control to misbehave. also abs ring signal malfunction. put a code reader on to see if there are any pending codes.
guess #2-sticking calipers (rear drums if applicable) or ebrake issue.
guess #3-is it 4wd? maybe when it gets wet, there is a short or something in the 4wd actuator or harness causing it to attempt to engage. don't know about the sequoia, but the 4wd actuator is usually on the passenger side inner axle. never heard of this happening just throwing it out there.

whatever the problem is, the vibration you feel could just be the electronics(vsc/abs) reacting to a perceived condition that's not really there.

I was going to follow up and say that the other way I could describe it is when the ABS is pulsing.  I think you're on to something.  It's wet here so often that it should happen regularly if water was involved.

[blackdiamond]

Back to the 4Runner vibration riddle.

Replacing 3 of 4 tie-rod ends seems to have resolved the lower speed vibration.  Like an idiot I somehow missed that there were four tie-rod ends so didn't supply all of the required parts.  Only one was really worn so I'll grab another one to have ready for a future trip to the mechanic.  Maybe evidence that I'm making the right choice by having my trusted mechanic take care of things!

My mechanic was able to duplicate the high speed vibration on the road and the lift.  He ran it up to 60 mph on the lift with someone else using a jack to control the differential height.  It seems that allowing it to droop a bit below ride high seem to improve things (maybe sagging springs?).  He also removed the driveshaft and confirmed that the engine/transmission/t-case were smooth.  He also pulled the tires and put the brake drums and lug nuts on and was able to duplicate the vibration eliminating the wheels and tires.  In the end he recommended another local shop that should be better suited to help chase the cause of the vibration down.  He noted some noise in the differential, but assumes that it's likely normal for a Detroit locker.  When he reinstalled the rear driveshaft he rotated it 90 degrees on both flanges.  I'd swear that the vibration was better on the way home with the only other change being a 5 psi reduction in tire pressure (from 35 to 30).  I was playing with the pressure before I dropped it off just to see if it changed anything with the low speed vibration.  The drivetrain angles looked good to him, at least nothing was obviously off.  I'll need to drive it a big more and then follow up with the second shop.

[liveoak]

would like to see some pictures of your driveshaft setup on the 4runner. this thread needs some pics anyway.

[blackdiamond]

guess #1-electrical short when wet in abs or related wiring causing the traction/stability control to misbehave. also abs ring signal malfunction. put a code reader on to see if there are any pending codes.
guess #2-sticking calipers (rear drums if applicable) or ebrake issue.
guess #3-is it 4wd? maybe when it gets wet, there is a short or something in the 4wd actuator or harness causing it to attempt to engage. don't know about the sequoia, but the 4wd actuator is usually on the passenger side inner axle. never heard of this happening just throwing it out there.

whatever the problem is, the vibration you feel could just be the electronics(vsc/abs) reacting to a perceived condition that's not really there.

Back to the 2004 Toyota Sequoia.  I got my code reader in the mail from my dad yesterday so I plugged it in today and got the following three ABS Codes: C1203 (ECM Communication Circuit Malfunction), C1223 (ABS Control System Malfunction), and C1247 (malfunction in stroke sensor).  I reset the codes and when it does it again I can see what happens.  It was weeks between the first and second events, so now we wait.

[blackdiamond]

Replacing 3 of 4 tie-rod ends seems to have resolved the lower speed vibration.  Like an idiot I somehow missed that there were four tie-rod ends so didn't supply all of the required parts.  Only one was really worn so I'll grab another one to have ready for a future trip to the mechanic.  Maybe evidence that I'm making the right choice by having my trusted mechanic take care of things!

I'm getting read to order the 4th tie-rod end and the box my mechanic left me as a reminder of the part number is the right side.  The one that wasn't replaced is the right side of the High Steer Pitman Arm that is in front of the tie-rod.  This all makes sense; however, I looked back at my previous order from Marlin and it was for two rights sides and one left side.  Is a full set made up of three right sides and one left side or did Marlin mix up the order and send me two left sides and one right side?  The tie-rod end that connects to the steering arm is upside down, so maybe that accounts for it being a right side part.

[toyodaaddict]

The tie rod and drag link each use one LH and one RH.

[liveoak]

Back to the 2004 Toyota Sequoia.  I got my code reader in the mail from my dad yesterday so I plugged it in today and got the following three ABS Codes: C1203 (ECM Communication Circuit Malfunction), C1223 (ABS Control System Malfunction), and C1247 (malfunction in stroke sensor).  I reset the codes and when it does it again I can see what happens.  It was weeks between the first and second events, so now we wait.

found this https://www.tundrasolutions.com/threads/sequoia-brake-warning-light-turns-on-codes-solved.167409/
looks like it could be the brake booster

[blackdiamond]

found this https://www.tundrasolutions.com/threads/sequoia-brake-warning-light-turns-on-codes-solved.167409/
looks like it could be the brake booster

It's certainly tempting. I have had the brake warning light going on and off as long as I've owned it and the traction control lights also come one sporadically. It could all be a linked progression.

[blackdiamond]

found this https://www.tundrasolutions.com/threads/sequoia-brake-warning-light-turns-on-codes-solved.167409/
looks like it could be the brake booster

I chatted this afternoon with my mechanic about this. When I mentioned getting several ABS codes he rattled off two of the three and said that they are almost always the booster. He also said that he replaced one earlier this week and couldn't find an aftermarket replacement with his sources and the Toyota part is $1,200.  He suggested that I look for a part, so any suggestions from the peanut gallery?

[Gnarly4X]

... the Toyota part is $1,200.

Holy hot Ca-CA!!    Those little Japanese engineers are REALLY proud of THAT part!! 

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

Carl Jantz (Jantz Engineering) took a loot at my 4Runner today and confirmed that my driveline angle at the rear differential was within 1 degree. After riding and driving it and some discussion he suggested that I try a 2 degree shim to give the differential the ability to torque into alignment at it more.

He had some shims that he sent me home with, so I put them in this afternoon with promising results. I need to drive it more but it seems to be smoother.

[blackdiamond]

The vibration riddle remains. Maybe something in the rear differential?  Any chance reversing the shim might be better?

[blackdiamond]

Here's the summary of the 4Runner vibration trouble shooting:

I had the driveshaft rebuilt with all new joints and balanced.

My mechanic put it on the lift and used a jack to maintain ride height.  He was able to confirm the vibration at 60 mph.  He removed the wheels/tires and the vibration remained.  The vibration was reduced by lowering the rear axle which extended the driveshaft & angles.  Without the driveshaft in there was not a vibration.  Noted that the rear differential seemed noisy but isn't familiar with Detroit lockers.

I had Carl Jantz look at it and the rear driveline angle is within 1 degree of perfect.  He suggested that I try a 2 degree shim.

I have put the 2 degree shim in both directions and also swapped the rear tires with ones from my Sequoia and the vibration is fairly consistent.

I'm thinking that it has to be something in the rear differential.  Maybe extending things on the lift just reduced the load on whatever is growling/vibrating as it is definitely at its worst under load.

[Gnarly4X]

Premature axle bearing failure? 

Gnarls.

[swilson]

Flange on t-case or 3rd member not tightened to spec? 

Did this start with the new driveshaft or was the new driveshaft part of trying to cure the vibration?

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[blackdiamond]

Flange on t-case or 3rd member not tightened to spec? 

Did this start with the new driveshaft or was the new driveshaft part of trying to cure the vibration?

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

The driveshaft was step 1 for trying to resolve it.

[blackdiamond]

Premature axle bearing failure? 

Gnarls.

Maybe. They were replace not long ago compared to everything else.

[swilson]

Double check those flanges are tight and that the t-case mount is good.

[blackdiamond]

I'm headed back to see Carl Jantz again. He's going to get his stethoscope out and listen to some bearings.

[blackdiamond]

There was some noise in the pinion bearing. The amount of vibration on the jack stands at 55 mph was pretty impressive.  The axle bearings were quiet and the carrier bearings were quieter than the pinion bearing. I left it there, so I guess I'll find out what's inside when he has time to take it apart.

[swilson]

Glad you're making progress

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Gnarly4X]

Approximately how many miles on the 4:88s?

Approximately how many miles on the rear diff gear oil?

What type of gear oil is in it?

Does the pinion angle effect lubrication of the outer pinion bearing?

Gnarls.

[liveoak]

does he have an alignment rack? might want to check for a bent axle or housing/ flange as well.