Topic: 22r Won't Start

[Yotaoverland]

Last month I drove my truck like normal on the weekend, I went out the next weekend to drive it and it wouldn't start. It cranks, but will not attempt to start. I eventually replaced all of the ignition components under the hood, ignition module (GM 4 pin) universal coil, cap, rotor, plugs and wires and nothing. I checked that the mechanical fuel pump is working, which it is. I am stumped. Does anyone have any ideas?

I get spark at the number one spark plug while cranking it over. It has fuel. It doesn't even try to start with starting fluid.
The engine isn't old, it's a 22reperformance 22r built in 2017.

[sirdeuce]

Timing? Ignition or cam. If the cam jumped a tooth starting would be hard, two teeth and it won't start at all.

I'd say check your distributor trigger, but if you have spark that may not be an issue.

There is (carby I presume) a fuel cut solenoid on the carb to prevent run-on, but it doesn't affect the main circuits.

Exhaust could be completely blocled. Even then you'd get a pop at least.

[Gnarly4X]

Yeah.... I tend to agree with deucie on timing.  But my gut is telling me it is spark.

What has me really puzzled is what happened from running one weekend, then NOT even firing the next weekend.

If somehow the valve timing is so far off that the piston is at TCD firing and the valves are not closed... not enough compression to ignite the fuel.

However... I would think that you could at least some combustion with starting fluid.

No combustion is typically no spark or no fuel/too much fuel.

I would pull the rocker cover and verify TDC and the correct valve lash.

How big of a spark are you seeing at the spark plug?

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Said there was spark at #1 when cranking, otherwise I would agree with no spark. I'd be there in a heartbeat to check this out.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

This morning I took the carb apart and cleaned it. It's a Weber 32/36. It still didn't want to start. I removed all the plugs and placed them in the wires and verified that each one has spark. It really is super weird. It was running perfectly one weekend and then wouldn't even try to start the next. It just cranks but won't start up.

I suppose it could have jumped a tooth, maybe, but I probably would have noticed while driving?
The battery is probably on its way out, but when I try jumping it with my car, it still won't fire up.
This one is a true head scratcher.. I am considering getting a compression tester but this engine isn't very old and at most has 7k miles.

Timing? Ignition or cam. If the cam jumped a tooth starting would be hard, two teeth and it won't start at all.

I'd say check your distributor trigger, but if you have spark that may not be an issue.

There is (carby I presume) a fuel cut solenoid on the carb to prevent run-on, but it doesn't affect the main circuits.

Exhaust could be completely blocled. Even then you'd get a pop at least.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

How big of a spark are you seeing at the spark plug?

Gnarls.

It's kinda of a purple spark. Nothing huge, but it does spark.

[sirdeuce]

Spark is a spark. Unless you're boostin' to the moon, have a really high comp ratio, or dumpin' a ton of N2O (none of which would be an issue at start-up), a weak spark would do something.

I'd say, pull the valve cover and check the cam timing. You can play the "look for the bright link" game or put #1 cylinder at TDC and verify the cam is where it needs to be. I would just pop on over, but central CA coastal to Dallas is a little more than just popping over.

Hope you get this ironed out soon.

[Gnarly4X]

When my 1985 22R did this... suddenly died, would not fire.

It was the ignitor.  I bought a Toyota ignitor and it practically melted my credit card! It was like $400! 

I rebuilt an ignitor with a GM ignitor from Autozone, and followed the directions that Benjamin posted on Off-Road.com moons ago... about 2000.

The GM ignitor was about $6.00 and I built it into the old ignitor case. As I remember I had to buy a couple resistors from RadioShack.  It only took about 45 minutes to build it.  It worked perfect.  It lived under my front seat in the truck as a spare until I totaled it.  I think I still have the printed photo and directions from Benjamin.

That is one of the very best Toyota DIYers I've ever seen and actually did it.

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

I love DIY!!

[Gnarly4X]

Yeah I agree that even a little spark should fire something and make a sound.

OK....  cam timing... if it ran fine when he shut if off, who messed up the cam timing while it was sitting all by itself?

Could it be a "trans" timing thing?   

If there is sufficient spark, and there is sufficient compression.... then it is a fuel thiing.

One way to check if its a fuel thing, pull all the spark plugs, squirt some gas into each cylinder, re-install the plugs and see if fires.

If there is backfire, then its a timing problem.

Since it's a 22RE Performance engine, I'd be on the phone Jim to get his opinion on his engine. 

Where's all those fark'n "experts" when you need one?

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Cam timing? When you shut off the engine there can be a little reverse run bump and that can be enough to induce slack in the chain, enough to jump a tooth or two. If the timing chain components are worn or broken, like with the crap plastic guides, it can happen quite easily.

Same thing can damae the distributor gear causing ignition timing issues.

Loose cam bolt will cause problems.

[Gnarly4X]

7,000 miles on a 22RE Performance engine is not likely to have a cam issue.

If the timing chain was that loose it would be producing a loud ticking sound.

One sprocket tooth difference at the cam gear is only 4 degrees, that should not be enough - advance or retard - to cause a no-fire engine.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

It's kinda of a purple spark. Nothing huge, but it does spark.

Yotaoverland...

When cranking the engine is there any evidence of any combustion in any cylinders? 

Or.. is every cylinder completely dead?

Have you inspected the timing gear,chain, and guides after removing the rocker cover?

Gnarls.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

I just got back in from verifying TDC and the timing seems fine. The rotor in the distributor was pointing at #1 wire on the cap. The crank shaft was at 0. I sprayed some brake clean (didn't have a skinny funnel to get gas) in each plug hole and it still didn't even try to start.
I asked my wife to crank it while I twisted the distributor and if I twist in all the way to the opposite side that it was initially running at, it sputtered but didn't start. 

I may just take it to a shop soon. 

If any of you guys have instagram mine is japanesecoyote and you can see on my stories what I've been up to with it.

[sirdeuce]

So I have to ask, no insult intended, are the ignition wires right?

It'll be interesting to see what the issue is. Typically something simple.

[Gnarly4X]

I just got back in from verifying TDC and the timing seems fine. The rotor in the distributor was pointing at #1 wire on the cap. The crank shaft was at 0. I sprayed some brake clean (didn't have a skinny funnel to get gas) in each plug hole and it still didn't even try to start.
I asked my wife to crank it while I twisted the distributor and if I twist in all the way to the opposite side that it was initially running at, it sputtered but didn't start. 

I may just take it to a shop soon. 

If any of you guys have instagram mine is japanesecoyote and you can see on my stories what I've been up to with it.

I would only try one more thing before taking it into a "shop". 

I would verify that the coil and ignitor are working by trying them in another 22R engine.

I would also verify that the negative ground to the engine is really really good.  Even continuity test that wire.

Wow!! This is a mysterious "no-fire".

Gnarls.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

So I have to ask, no insult intended, are the ignition wires right?

It'll be interesting to see what the issue is. Typically something simple.

No insult taken haha. I assume they are right as I haven't changed their configuration since it ran last.
I took photos of how it was hooked up before replacing it. Though now, I question myself.

[RUGER]

how old is yer fuel. id replace the fuel filter.

RUGER

[sirdeuce]

No insult taken haha. I assume they are right as I haven't changed their configuration since it ran last.
I took photos of how it was hooked up before replacing it. Though now, I question myself.

You'd be surpeised how many people do just that. I learned my lesson in my VW days. I once drove to the store and back home on one cylinder! Buddy was pranking me and swapped the coil wire with a plug wire. For some reason I couldn't see it. I just thought I'd be pulling the engine that night.

Ah, the good 'ol days!

[Gnarly4X]

You'd be surpeised how many people do just that. I learned my lesson in my VW days. I once drove to the store and back home on one cylinder! Buddy was pranking me and swapped the coil wire with a plug wire. For some reason I couldn't see it. I just thought I'd be pulling the engine that night.

Ah, the good 'ol days!

If you fark with my truck, you  may live to see another day.

If you fark with my dog I will turn into a level of crazy that will make your worst nightmare look like a happy place.

Gnarls.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

Here's a video of what I've got so far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r7Pc4R-Hsg
I'm sure I changed my fuel filter last year.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

I just tested my vacuum advance (sucked on the hose and watched the port closest to the engine not hold vacuum).
Let's hope this is it!

[Gnarly4X]

Here's a video of what I've got so far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r7Pc4R-Hsg
I'm sure I changed my fuel filter last year.

So it "tried" to fire and start. 

It could be an ignition or ignition timing issue?

Even with the vacuum advance is not working, I believe it should start.

I assume you have checked and verified the firing order and the spark plug wires to each spark plug.

Gnarls.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

Yes, I checked each plug in the wire for spark. Firing order should be correct. The cap is marked so it's pretty easy.
I ended up getting a new distributor, I'll switch it out and see how that goes.

So it "tried" to fire and start. 

It could be an ignition or ignition timing issue?

Even with the vacuum advance is not working, I believe it should start.

I assume you have checked and verified the firing order and the spark plug wires to each spark plug.

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

So, watcing the video. Engine tries to start when timing is retarded from where you started. looks like enough timing adjustment. The vacuum advance should be two separate circuits. If I remember correctly one diaphragm advanced (farthest out) and one retarded (inner diaphragm), so putting them on rhe same circuit would cancel them out.

My concern is the noise I hear in the video. Could be nothing, but sounds like a knock. Could be something rattlin' around when you crank the engine. Could be something bad. Need more input.

[Gnarly4X]

Looking at the video again....

The rotation spot when the engine almost started looks like the disty is rotated almost to the end of the slot.

Can you verify that you have the disty gear correctly installed on the cam gear. 

Is it off one tooth on the disty?

As I remember, the center of the rotor contact is going to be very slightly counterclockwise to the cap contact.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Yes, I checked each plug in the wire for spark. Firing order should be correct. The cap is marked so it's pretty easy.
I ended up getting a new distributor, I'll switch it out and see how that goes.

 

Actually... its easy to get the spark plug wires incorrectly located from the disty to the spark plug.

I've messed up more than couple times.

The firing order is 1 - 3 - 4 - 2

Make sure you are at TDC at the crankshaft harmonic balancer, with the number one piston firing.

Number one rockers should have play.

Please re-check that each wire from the disty cap from number 1 is connected to each spark plug for proper firing order.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

So, watcing the video. Engine tries to start when timing is retarded from where you started. looks like enough timing adjustment. The vacuum advance should be two separate circuits. If I remember correctly one diaphragm advanced (farthest out) and one retarded (inner diaphragm), so putting them on rhe same circuit would cancel them out.

My concern is the noise I hear in the video. Could be nothing, but sounds like a knock. Could be something rattlin' around when you crank the engine. Could be something bad. Need more input.

That sound could be firing order is incorrect??

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Could be, but could be nothing, could be the hood banging around. If it's nothing, no worries. If it's the engine it could be the problem. Need to verify what it is.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

So as far as the distributor being on the right tooth, it should be. I haven't taken it out for any reason. It's just as it was when it ran last. I just checked that the plug wires are in the correct firing order, which they seem to be. It is very strange that it tries to start when I twist the distributor all the way to the opposite side. I've had my ignition module wired wrong before, the truck still started, but it ran poorly and wouldn't turn off with the key.

I can't imagine anything is mechanically wrong with the engine. It's not that old and I don't dog on it. I barely drive it and give it routine oil changes.

As I mentioned in my original posting, it ran perfectly fine one weekend and the next it wouldn't even try to start. If this new distributor doesn't work,
I'll fold and take it to a shop.