Topic: 22r Won't Start

[Gnarly4X]

 

 Gnarls 

[sirdeuce]

Another series dropped mid-season.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

So, I spoke with them on the phone while back and they told me about the start and then dies issue. I actually went to pick it up Wednesday after a call from them saying it's ready to go. I left work 30min early to get it. I asked what the second issue was and they said it was idling too low which wasn't providing enough power to have a good spark. They idled it up and it seemed to be doing fine thereafter. Well, when I went out to turn it on and take it home, of course it wouldn't start at all... So it's still at that shop. I know of a Toyota specialist in Austin, Tx that I've taken my truck to before. They had it going the same day perfectly. I may have to take it down there if this shop can't get it going.

From what I saw, they did change the wires from the distributor to the ignition module, and from the module to the coil, they seemed to only put new connectors. The shop owner mentioned that maybe I should get a DUI distributor, but I really don't want that monstrous distributor in there haha.



 

It's been about 30 days since you first posted on this thread.

The "no start" and now start,run, then no start again is better than a Sherlock Holmes mystery.

My curiosity is bugging the heck out of me.  

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Thank you for the update even though it sucks! 

Is the ignitor a TOYOTA factory type?

Are the spark plug wires, including coil to disty, WIRE CORE?

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

AW geesh, this is taking way too much time and effort. It's gotta be something really simple. Simple is the hardest to fix.

[Gnarly4X]

AW geesh, this is taking way too much time and effort. It's gotta be something really simple. Simple is the hardest to fix.

Holy guacamole!!!  I would be on serious psychotropic drugs by now if it were something complex!!!!!!

Gnarls.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

I have a GM ignition module (which they said they swapped out, but I put a new one on prior to bringing it to them).

I'm not about the others being wire core.

And yes, I've been going crazy.. mainly because not even the pros are finding it.. Though, it seems they tinker with it and then let
it sit for days..

Thank you for the update even though it sucks! 

Is the ignitor a TOYOTA factory type?

Are the spark plug wires, including coil to disty, WIRE CORE?

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

2 weeks in the shop, 10 minutes of diagnosing problem.

[Gnarly4X]

Wow…

Does GM make an ignitor specifically for a 22R? Or is that GM ignitor manually installed in place of the Toyota factory ignitor?

If the engine was running fine when you shut it off, and it sat unmolested, out of any harsh weather for 1 week, the likelihood of a fuel or carb issue is not good.

With temperature changes, electrical components (copper, solder, iron, plastic, rubber, etc.) can be affected by expansion and contraction, right?

If the starter adequately spins the engine, it needs fuel and spark to start and run, right?.

If the ignition module, disty, coil, plug wires, and spark plugs are good, with the plugs pulled, you should get a bright blue spark in the open air at the spark plug gap while grounding it to the engine and spinning the engine with the starter, right?

I see there are aftermarket ignitors like…

https://www.amazon.com/NewYall-Ignition-Control-Igniter-Assembly/dp/B09MFJZF3Q/ref=sr_1_1?crid=YZD6BYJWSOL4&keywords=22R+ignitor&qid=1691843386&sprefix=22r+ignitor%2Caps%2C141&sr=8-1

but has a bad rating on Amazon. The one on RockAuto (Standard Motor Products) looks like the same thing but sells for $352.79!! But comes with a 5-year warranty.

The reason I asked about the spark plug wires, is because I switched from carbon core to solid wire core spark plug wires many years ago. I discovered a brand new set of wires were bad. The carbon core was defective and caused too much resistance and did not conduct the 25K volts to the spark plug.  The carbon core wires are good because they reduce the static (EMI) in the radio. Over time and changing spark plugs, pulling, and bending the carbon core, the carbon core breaks, causing a high resistance and weak or no spark.

An ohm meter will quickly check for bad spark plug wires.

As I mentioned, my gut feeling is that it’s an electrical issue, and like sirdeuce said, probably something “simple”…. an intermittent connection?

Gnarls.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

I'm not sure about the ignitor, I thought that's what the ignition module was. But, I did put new plug wires on which could possibly be an issue.

Here lately, I've considered selling my truck and getting a new Tacoma.. It's a fun truck but, I'd like to get in and not about worry how far I'm going to get..

Wow…

Does GM make an ignitor specifically for a 22R? Or is that GM ignitor manually installed in place of the Toyota factory ignitor?

If the engine was running fine when you shut it off, and it sat unmolested, out of any harsh weather for 1 week, the likelihood of a fuel or carb issue is not good.

With temperature changes, electrical components (copper, solder, iron, plastic, rubber, etc.) can be affected by expansion and contraction, right?

If the starter adequately spins the engine, it needs fuel and spark to start and run, right?.

If the ignition module, disty, coil, plug wires, and spark plugs are good, with the plugs pulled, you should get a bright blue spark in the open air at the spark plug gap while grounding it to the engine and spinning the engine with the starter, right?

I see there are aftermarket ignitors like…

https://www.amazon.com/NewYall-Ignition-Control-Igniter-Assembly/dp/B09MFJZF3Q/ref=sr_1_1?crid=YZD6BYJWSOL4&keywords=22R+ignitor&qid=1691843386&sprefix=22r+ignitor%2Caps%2C141&sr=8-1

but has a bad rating on Amazon. The one on RockAuto (Standard Motor Products) looks like the same thing but sells for $352.79!! But comes with a 5-year warranty.

The reason I asked about the spark plug wires, is because I switched from carbon core to solid wire core spark plug wires many years ago. I discovered a brand new set of wires were bad. The carbon core was defective and caused too much resistance and did not conduct the 25K volts to the spark plug.  The carbon core wires are good because they reduce the static (EMI) in the radio. Over time and changing spark plugs, pulling, and bending the carbon core, the carbon core breaks, causing a high resistance and weak or no spark.

An ohm meter will quickly check for bad spark plug wires.

As I mentioned, my gut feeling is that it’s an electrical issue, and like sirdeuce said, probably something “simple”…. an intermittent connection?

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

From what I've seen, the ignition module is the HEI unit, 2 wires in and 2 wires out. Only works with carby engines, not a standard replacement for Toyota's igniter.

Wiring should, if I recall properly, Trigger is 2 wires to the distributor trigger, and one wire to the negative side of the coil, the other to the battery.

B  Battery +
C  Coil -
W  Trigger
G  Trigger
The module body grounds to the Battery- or chassis, does need a good clean connection.

A bad connection could cause overheating of the module as well as an improper coil impedence. Overheating will trigger the module's protection circuit and shut it off.

Is your module properly grounded? Screwed to the chassis with a clean interface, no rust, dirt, or paint? Good wire connections? Imprperly sized terminals, wire size, can make for bad crimps. Dirty wire, or terminal lugs can impede current flow.

I didn't remember the wiring right, had to look it up. Then it all came back to me. Been a long time.

[sirdeuce]

Imma looking to get a truck and get rid of my 4Runner. Hmmm.

[Gnarly4X]

It's been about 45 days.

I'm very curious to learn about what caused your "no-start" condition.

There may be more chapters to this mystery novel, but I'd really like to cheat and sneak to the epilogue.

Gnarls.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

I got a call from them this past Friday. They said the ignition module is not giving the right resistance and they suspect that is the cause of the issues. I'm not quite sure as I replaced that along with everything else in the ignition system. Anyways, they want to get a Toyota ignitor and wire that in to eliminate the GM ignition and universal coil.

Either way, I can not believe it's been this long regardless.

It's been about 45 days.

I'm very curious to learn about what caused your "no-start" condition.

There may be more chapters to this mystery novel, but I'd really like to cheat and sneak to the epilogue.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

If a mechanic has any reasonable amount of experience with the early Toyota engines, they should know the ignitor is too often the cause of a sudden "no start".

I suspect whoever installed a GM ignitor, if that is what has been identified, into the Toyota factory ignitor box may not have properly wired it.

Perhaps the GM ignitor failed, which is usually total failure.  Or the wiring was bad and the wrong resistor was used.

When I installed the GM ignitor from the instructions and diagram from Benjamin (Off-Road.com days) back around 2000 it worked prefect in my short test.

Since I had purchased a factory ignitor for about $400, I put the new factory Toyota ignitor back in and kept the GM-installed one under my seat.

If you buy and install a Toyota factory ignitor, and assuming the coil is working correctly, the no-start issue should go away. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

.... I'm not quite sure as I replaced that along with everything else in the ignition system.

So... did you replace the ignitor with a Toyota factory unit?  I'm sorry I'm still confused on this part.

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

I got a call from them this past Friday. They said the ignition module is not giving the right resistance and they suspect that is the cause of the issues. I'm not quite sure as I replaced that along with everything else in the ignition system. Anyways, they want to get a Toyota ignitor and wire that in to eliminate the GM ignition and universal coil.

Either way, I can not believe it's been this long regardless.

The GM ignitor has the wrong trsistance? In relattion to what? The pickup in the distributor, or coil? The mod has been done sooooo many times successfully.

Can you post a pic of your install?

[OVRAROK]

Here's a pic of wiring. You can see resistor on the yellow wire.
Maybe you don't have the resistor on the yellow wire

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[sirdeuce]

Take note of Rok's set-up. Module bolted to bare aluminum plate, most likely bolted to the chassis, with a pigtail to ensure a good ground.

Biggest failure I've seen in ignition mods with these Toyotas is a poor ground, whatever system is used. Rok's is a good example of how to do it right.

[Gnarly4X]

The resistor should be 1K Ohm.

4 band color code:  Brown, Black, Red, Gold.

Gnarls.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

I'm sure they tested all of that..  

The last I heard is, they put a Toyota ignitor on and it's starting up just fine. They just wanted to clean up the wiring before sending it back to me. That was last week though..

[Gnarly4X]

The last I heard is, they put a Toyota ignitor on and it's starting up just fine.

 


Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

WooHoo!!

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

So a couple days after them saying it started up with the Toyota ignitor, they said it did the same thing. One day, it started up throughout the day. The next, it had no spark again. I'm now assuming it's something with the wiring.. Anyways.. I still don't have my truck back..

[sirdeuce]

I'd say look at the distributor innards. But wires can be an issue, probably a break inside the insulation AT a wire terminal.

Also. check and rechack the grounds. MOst of the EFI Yotas I've come across have a ground that is on a position to be easily missed.

Just when you thnk it's safe to go back in the water........

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

I'd say look at the distributor innards. But wires can be an issue, probably a break inside the insulation AT a wire terminal.

Also. check and rechack the grounds. MOst of the EFI Yotas I've come across have a ground that is on a position to be easily missed.

Just when you thnk it's safe to go back in the water........

Yea, I gave them a refurbished distributor that I got when I was trying to get it running myself. They also have the old one, so that's two to work with.
They told me they've tried so many things and are stumped.

I tracked down two OEM wiring harnesses. I'm considering throwing one into the truck.

[sirdeuce]

Maybe this would be more fun 

[Gnarly4X]

They told me they've tried so many things and are stumped.

Wow!!! This mystery really sucks.

I’m not surprised at the shop’s inability to find the problem.

Back some years ago on my first 1986 22RE, I had an Autometer ammeter gauge on the dash and it showed a 60 amp charge after starting the engine and it stayed at 60.
I knew something was wrong and it indicated the alternator was over charging for some reason.
I checked everything I could think of, cleaned the battery cable and ground wires, checked the battery with a hydrometer, and the alternator and battery were showing normal voltages. 

Near where I worked there was an Automotive Electric shop. I stopped in and 3 guys spent 1 hour trying to figure out the over-charge on the ammeter.
They finally gave up and said it’s the ammeter.  I knew it wasn’t the ammeter.  I drove home and figured it had to be some connection and most likely in the battery cables.
So decided to put new battery cables on. As I removed the positive cable the bolt broke off of the lead that was molded around the head of the bolt where the cable attached and exposed a pocket of corrosion.

That corrosion was just enough to create too much resistance and making the alternator put out more voltage as though the battery needed charging.

Gnarls.

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

Maybe this would be more fun 

Hahaha definitely

[Yotaoverland [OP]]

Wow!!! This mystery really sucks.

I’m not surprised at the shop’s inability to find the problem.

Back some years ago on my first 1986 22RE, I had an Autometer ammeter gauge on the dash and it showed a 60 amp charge after starting the engine and it stayed at 60.
I knew something was wrong and it indicated the alternator was over charging for some reason.
I checked everything I could think of, cleaned the battery cable and ground wires, checked the battery with a hydrometer, and the alternator and battery were showing normal voltages. 

Near where I worked there was an Automotive Electric shop. I stopped in and 3 guys spent 1 hour trying to figure out the over-charge on the ammeter.
They finally gave up and said it’s the ammeter.  I knew it wasn’t the ammeter.  I drove home and figured it had to be some connection and most likely in the battery cables.
So decided to put new battery cables on. As I removed the positive cable the bolt broke off of the lead that was molded around the head of the bolt where the cable attached and exposed a pocket of corrosion.

That corrosion was just enough to create too much resistance and making the alternator put out more voltage as though the battery needed charging.

Gnarls.

Oh, geez! I'm sure it's something simple like that on my truck haha. I hope so anyways..
There's a shop in LA called Squirrel Concepts, I've considered shipping the damn thing to those guys..