Author Topic: Toybrota's 22R build  (Read 26209 times)

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Toybrota

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #510 on: Apr 12, 2019, 05:37:41 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_defect#Gas_porosity

https://www.dynacast.com/porosity
Casting defects is what I'm ruling out. However, the gasket mating surface was perfectly smooth.
It's enough of an issue that LC engineering says it is. They say you might have to modify the bottom intake plate. I didn't, it fit fine. Thanks for those articles!

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #511 on: Apr 12, 2019, 05:40:39 PM »
Here's a pic from my project today.
Shifters locked in Reverse and Low range, no way to get it out of gear. Cut and welded a link of chain on the shifter. Huge padlock. Just made to slow a thief down.

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joeyf

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #512 on: Apr 12, 2019, 09:44:07 PM »
I recently went through the same problem of a leaking bottom intake plate. Went through two gaskets with no success. finally got it by scrubbing both matting surfaces with steel wool, to a shiny finish. Cleaning it up with carb cleaner then using AISIN FIPG.

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #513 on: Apr 12, 2019, 10:30:48 PM »
I recently went through the same problem of a leaking bottom intake plate. Went through two gaskets with no success. finally got it by scrubbing both matting surfaces with steel wool, to a shiny finish. Cleaning it up with carb cleaner then using AISIN FIPG.
Sounds like an idea. Did you torque those bolts? I just snugged them up. I'll have to pick up some AISIN FIPG

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joeyf

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #514 on: Apr 13, 2019, 07:43:06 AM »
No torque just what feels good by hand.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #515 on: Apr 13, 2019, 08:36:54 AM »
Here's a pic from my project today.
Shifters locked in Reverse and Low range, no way to get it out of gear. Cut and welded a link of chain on the shifter. Huge padlock. Just made to slow a thief down.

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As you said, we can only hope to slow thieves down. That said, I will be copying this system because I'm guessing fewer thieves will want to make a horrendous racket with an angle grinder for a minute to cut that padlock off.

I would also suggest some kind of system that disables the ignition or starter motor. Preferably both because you could still back the truck onto a trailer in 4wd low.

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #516 on: Apr 13, 2019, 09:46:27 AM »
No torque just what feels good by hand.
Gotcha. Did you end up using the gasket WITH the FIPG?

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #517 on: Apr 13, 2019, 10:01:06 AM »
As you said, we can only hope to slow thieves down. That said, I will be copying this system because I'm guessing fewer thieves will want to make a horrendous racket with an angle grinder for a minute to cut that padlock off.

I would also suggest some kind of system that disables the ignition or starter motor. Preferably both because you could still back the truck onto a trailer in 4wd low.
I always back in when I can, against barriers or walls. And I know, nothing stops trailer theft. But trailer related theft is pretty uncommon.

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joeyf

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #518 on: Apr 13, 2019, 11:24:29 AM »
Gotcha. Did you end up using the gasket WITH the FIPG?

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No gasket. Just a thin layer on plate and intake, let it sit for 5 or so minutes then bolt up

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #519 on: Apr 14, 2019, 12:11:27 PM »
No gasket. Just a thin layer on plate and intake, let it sit for 5 or so minutes then bolt up
Gotcha. I'll have to try this. Thanks for the heads up. Is this on a stock intake?

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #520 on: Apr 14, 2019, 12:29:41 PM »
Well, I attempted to fix the water plate again this weekend.
Joeyf had a great suggestion of using the Aisin FIPG and no gasket. I'm going to try this next, with the thread sealant gnarls recommended (not leaking from the bolts)

What I did try? I used the gasket (correct one) and that copper spray I've seen recommended before.
Used silicone on the bolts like LCE said. Still leaks.
I made sure to snug the bolts, cleaned the surfaces...
The mounting surface on the intake for the water plate is a very smooth surface.
Debating what I should do. Maybe I'll ditch the offenhauser? I'm certain it's the issue.

At this point, I'm very close to selling this truck (open to offers, I know I'll only get maybe 2K)

How am I supposed to rely on this turd when it leaks?



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Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #521 on: Apr 14, 2019, 01:31:16 PM »
Aisin FIPG may work.  I’ve never used it.  If I were to use it, I would use it with the gasket.

I have not seen what Aisin FIPG looks like.  I have used and seen what Permatex’s thread sealer looks like.

Here’s the tech spec on:  https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

and why I would try it:

https://441py33rout1ptjxn2lupv31-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_docs/tds/56521.pdf

Let us know whatever you do and how it works.  :gap:

You’re just kidding about selling you truck, aren’t you?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #522 on: Apr 14, 2019, 02:55:36 PM »
Can you come up with some sort of do-hickey to pressurize the cooling system without the engine running?

Then pressurize the system and look and SEE where it's leaking.....
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

joeyf

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #523 on: Apr 14, 2019, 05:36:17 PM »
Gotcha. I'll have to try this. Thanks for the heads up. Is this on a stock intake?

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Yes stock intake and plate. Hope your next try works.

If not it will suck, but you can try pulling the intake off and getting a big sheet of 120 or so grit sand paper and sand it on a table.

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #524 on: Apr 14, 2019, 06:33:22 PM »

Yes stock intake and plate. Hope your next try works.

If not it will suck, but you can try pulling the intake off and getting a big sheet of 120 or so grit sand paper and sand it on a table.
There's an idea! The gasket surface (intake side) is a polished surface. I'm sure that is a factor.
If I have to remove the intake, I might as well just Tig weld (or braze) the plate on permanently.

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #525 on: Apr 14, 2019, 07:06:33 PM »
Can you come up with some sort of do-hickey to pressurize the cooling system without the engine running?

Then pressurize the system and look and SEE where it's leaking.....
I could rent a cooling system pressure tester again and see. The thing is, it only started leaking the first time after I took it on a road trip. Not before that.

When the motor got to 220° awhile back, it didn't leak. Which, the system would've been way pressurized then.

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #526 on: Apr 14, 2019, 07:08:25 PM »
Aisin FIPG may work.  I’ve never used it.  If I were to use it, I would use it with the gasket.

I have not seen what Aisin FIPG looks like.  I have used and seen what Permatex’s thread sealer looks like.

Here’s the tech spec on:  https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

and why I would try it:

https://441py33rout1ptjxn2lupv31-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_docs/tds/56521.pdf

Let us know whatever you do and how it works.  :gap:

You’re just kidding about selling you truck, aren’t you?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :spin:
I'm totally serious about potentially selling it. I just haven't decided if that's a good idea or not. I'll totally regret it if I do. But there's something about a 5VZ tacoma with a five speed...
Looks like I'll be picking up some thread sealant this week. Thanks again for the recommendation.

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emsvitil

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #527 on: Apr 14, 2019, 07:49:17 PM »
I'm just wondering if the leak is somewhere else and it only looks like it's coming from the plate.
Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #528 on: Apr 14, 2019, 07:59:31 PM »
I'm just wondering if the leak is somewhere else and it only looks like it's coming from the plate.
It's definitely coming from the plate. I can see it seeping from in between the plate and intake.
If I swipe my finger along the perimeter of the plate, I get coolant.
I wonder if the surface of the intake is the issue.
It's basically a mirror finish.

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H8PVMNT

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #529 on: Apr 15, 2019, 03:57:09 AM »
This is kind of butch but I think it will work for you.  Drop in some good radiator/cooling system sealant and I bet the leak will stop.  K Seal or Alumaseal both work great.  This is typically a permanent fix too until you tear it apart.
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Lewis Hein

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #530 on: Apr 15, 2019, 05:26:36 AM »
In re selling, I think I will share my experience:

My truck spent one summer (my busy season when I most need it) constantly letting me down: A huge exhaust leak that I battled for ever, Overheating issues that (I think) ended up killing the ignitor, oil loss that would put the Exxon Valdeez to shame, and constant battles with the atrocious neglect and shoddy maintainance by previous owners. After the ignitor went out I decided to sell it.

Long story short: It turned out that it was less trouble and expense for me to stick with a vehicle that had known problems, even several major ones, than to take on a new vehicle with a whole new batch of unknown problems. If I were you I'd let the truck be for a couple weeks while puzzling on it. A solution might just come to you at 3 AM one day.

Speaking of which, are the mating surfaces flat? Is the plate bent? What happens if you turn the plate front-to-back and try again? Does the leak go away? Does it move? Is there a blockage in the coolant passage that puts undue pressure on your sealing job? Can you drill and tap some extra bolt holes to squish the plate against the intake where it's leaking?

Can you go back to the old intake manifold? I know the two-piece adapter is not well liked, but could you weld the two pieces together? Do you have any machinist buddies who could make a one-piece adapter for a reasonable cost? Do you want to buy a milling machine and make one yourself? (Okay, buying a $1200 milling machine to fix a coolant leak is overkill, but at least you have the milling machine afterwards!)

These are just a few ideas and suggestions. At the risk of sounding like Gnarly, they may be worthless :yupyup:

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #531 on: Apr 15, 2019, 05:45:10 AM »
This is kind of butch but I think it will work for you.  Drop in some good radiator/cooling system sealant and I bet the leak will stop.  K Seal or Alumaseal both work great.  This is typically a permanent fix too until you tear it apart.

I've been told those can plug up radiators and heater cores. I've seen it happen once, which is hardly a huge sample size. But it's enough that the idea of using those gives me pause.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #532 on: Apr 15, 2019, 06:00:36 AM »
This is kind of butch but I think it will work for you.  Drop in some good radiator/cooling system sealant and I bet the leak will stop.  K Seal or Alumaseal both work great.  This is typically a permanent fix too until you tear it apart.
I was thinking along the lines of this too. Alumaseal is cheap too!  Thanks for the recommendation.

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Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #533 on: Apr 15, 2019, 06:23:45 AM »
I've been told those can plug up radiators and heater cores. I've seen it happen once, which is hardly a huge sample size. But it's enough that the idea of using those gives me pause.

Everyone's experience is different.

I've used Alumaseal powder several times and it works, AND it DID NOT plug up anything.

I've used it and seen it work on 3 of my 22REs!

I was going to recommend that option if the Permatex Thread Sealer did not work - which I believe it will. 

I'd really like to understand if the mating surfaces are FLAT?

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #534 on: Apr 15, 2019, 06:51:20 AM »
What are you torquing the nuts and bolts to?
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #535 on: Apr 15, 2019, 07:53:35 AM »
Or TIG weld the plate in place :yesnod:

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #536 on: Apr 15, 2019, 01:36:48 PM »
In re selling, I think I will share my experience:

My truck spent one summer (my busy season when I most need it) constantly letting me down: A huge exhaust leak that I battled for ever, Overheating issues that (I think) ended up killing the ignitor, oil loss that would put the Exxon Valdeez to shame, and constant battles with the atrocious neglect and shoddy maintainance by previous owners. After the ignitor went out I decided to sell it.

Long story short: It turned out that it was less trouble and expense for me to stick with a vehicle that had known problems, even several major ones, than to take on a new vehicle with a whole new batch of unknown problems. If I were you I'd let the truck be for a couple weeks while puzzling on it. A solution might just come to you at 3 AM one day.

Speaking of which, are the mating surfaces flat? Is the plate bent? What happens if you turn the plate front-to-back and try again? Does the leak go away? Does it move? Is there a blockage in the coolant passage that puts undue pressure on your sealing job? Can you drill and tap some extra bolt holes to squish the plate against the intake where it's leaking?

Can you go back to the old intake manifold? I know the two-piece adapter is not well liked, but could you weld the two pieces together? Do you have any machinist buddies who could make a one-piece adapter for a reasonable cost? Do you want to buy a milling machine and make one yourself? (Okay, buying a $1200 milling machine to fix a coolant leak is overkill, but at least you have the milling machine afterwards!)

These are just a few ideas and suggestions. At the risk of sounding like Gnarly, they may be worthless :yupyup:

Hey Lewis, thank you for your thoughts on the matter of selling my rigs. I've come to the conclusion at the moment that I will just hang on to them. You are right, any other truck I get will be it's own can of worms. Potentially greater issues, potentially none.
Makes sense to stick with what I know!
I do have my original intake manifold with the two piece adapter. If it comes to it, I will just install it and sell (Or fix) my Offenhauser.
Welding the water plate to the intake makes sense, I would have to wrangle with heat distortion/warpage. The plate is billet aluminum, and the intake is cast aluminum. TIG Bronze brazing might be a better idea.
The plate can only be installed one way unfortunately. I do believe the plate is flat, but I could be wrong. If I have to remove it to drill and tap new holes, might as well permanently weld it on. Thanks again!

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #537 on: Apr 15, 2019, 01:42:09 PM »
Everyone's experience is different.

I've used Alumaseal powder several times and it works, AND it DID NOT plug up anything.

I've used it and seen it work on 3 of my 22REs!

I was going to recommend that option if the Permatex Thread Sealer did not work - which I believe it will. 

I'd really like to understand if the mating surfaces are FLAT?

Gnarls.

Thanks for the input gnarls! I just dumped the Alumaseal powder in (Thank you H8PVMNT for the suggestion!). Going to drive it around and get it mixed in. I am certain it'll fix my issue, the leak is very slow. No drips, just seepage.
If I have to remove the plate again, I will absolutely use the Permatex Thread Sealer on the bolts. It isn't leaking from the bolts, but it would be nice to have the thread sealer instead of the RTV on the threads.

As for what I torqued the bolts to, I just snugged them up real good. There isn't a torque spec that I have found (I called LCE, they said just snug them good).

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #538 on: Apr 15, 2019, 04:05:09 PM »
I would also use no gasket and just permatex silicone or right stuff or toyota FIPG, and follow the instructions! So both sufaces fully cleaned, and depending on the product, you apply and mate the surfaces, wait 30 mins or so, tighten or torque, then wait 12 or 24 hours before putting coolant in. No leaks garanteed even if both surfaces are not flat!

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #539 on: Apr 15, 2019, 06:03:51 PM »
T,

This is a long thread for having limited facts known, just my observation.

First, did you check and measure the mating surfaces for flatness?

I don’t care what LCE told you, there IS a torque spec, and I don’t know who at LCE told you that but its stupid!  The 22R intake manifold spec is 14 lbs.  In MY opinion and MY experience that factory torque spec is too light.  But, it is supported by a bracket... WHY do you think that is?  After working on 3 Toyota trucks, 2 22REs and 1 22R since 1986, I don’t agree with the factory specs in several cases… again JUST MY experience.

If you are just “snugging” those bolts and nuts, the manifold and plate is GOING TO LEAK!! That manifold hangs off the head, it probably weighs MORE that the factory carb and manifold. 

When I suggested to use Permatex High Performance Thread Sealer, I didn’t mean just on the threads. 

Regarding the Alumaseal, I should have suggested how to put in the radiator… but it is too late now.  It should only take about 30 minutes at freeway speeds to stop that leak…. BUT if the manifold and plate are moving due heat and vibration, and the torque pressure against those surfaces, with or with a gasket, is NOT sufficient - the Alumaseal may NOT work.

EDIT:  By the way..... how many manuals can you show me or have you ever seen that refers to or specs torque for ANYTHING on a Toyota 22R engine at "snug"?

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 15, 2019, 06:19:33 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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