Topic: Toybrota's 22R build

[Gnarly4X]

 

[Toybrota [OP]]

Thanks again everyone for the kind words!

Today I went and tackled the oil pan leak. What a fun job! I unfortunately don't have any pictures of the process, but I'll grab some pictures of how nice and dry everything is under the motor.

Drained all the oil first, and removed all the bolts. I was surprised that the drain plug came out without much of a Tug, I always snug it. Looks like I should check everything twice, after a drive and maybe 20 miles? We shall see.
Some of the pan bolts came out a little easier than expected, I did torque everything during install.
LC engineering gave me flat washers for all the pan bolts and nuts, so that's what I used. 
I could have sworn I put thread locker on, but none of the bolts looked very thread locked.
I cleaned all the bolts with a solvent and gave them all a good helping of blue medium strength thread lock. I cleaned the pan itself with a wire wheel, and copius amounts of brake clean to clean everything out. While in there, I checked for anything left in the bottom of the pan. Nothing! The pickup screen? Nothing. Not a single piece of silicone stuck to the screen. I was able to see some of the cylinder walls as well, and they looked FANTASTIC! After 7,000 miles, they looked as good as when I assembled it.
For the sealant for the pan itself, I used "The right stuff" Black. This is similar to the Toyota FIPG, in the way that it cures in five minutes! I gave all 4 locations that called for a dab of sealant a good amount.
Filled it back up with oil after everything was torqued down, and went to the car wash to spray the pan area off of any oil. A 20 mile ish drive through town produced NO oil droplets or seepage!
Tomorrow, I am going to put about 200 miles on this truck to see how everything fairs. No doubt in my mind that it'll hold, it looks nice and dry now!
I'll torque all the bolts again tomorrow before I leave, to ensure everything is set. I'll check to make sure the drain plug is snug again too.

Next up I'll tackle the bottom intake plate. Maybe I'll just Tig Braze it in place, if I can get a low profile Pyrex cup up there....

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[Gnarly4X]

...I'll torque all the bolts again tomorrow before I leave, to ensure everything is set.

Loctite Blue sets in about 10 minutes and cures in 24 hours.  Retorquing Loctite'd nuts or bolts will break the mechanical bond.

I don't use Loctite on my oil pan bolts because I will re-check and tighten them.

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Loctite Blue sets in about 10 minutes and cures in 24 hours.  Retorquing Loctite'd nuts or bolts will break the mechanical bond.

I don't use Loctite on my oil pan bolts because I will re-check and tighten them.

Gnarls.

That's a good point. Instead, I'll mark the bolts with a permanent marker all pointing forwards. That way, I can see if any loosen.

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[Gnarly4X]

That's a good point. Instead, I'll mark the bolts with a permanent marker all pointing forwards. That way, I can see if any loosen.

The bolts may back out a little.  The "loose-ness" is result of the gasket and RTV shrinking.... reducing the torque level. 

Drive the truck for a couple days...check the bolts.  Drive it for 4 or 5 days... check the bolts.  Snug them up, but don't torque them down too tight... you will squish the gasket.

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

The bolts may back out a little.  The "loose-ness" is result of the gasket and RTV shrinking.... reducing the torque level. 

Drive the truck for a couple days...check the bolts.  Drive it for 4 or 5 days... check the bolts.  Snug them up, but don't torque them down too tight... you will squish the gasket.

Gnarls.

When I say torque down, I mean torque to the proper spec listed by Toyota. I set my torque wrench to 108 inch pounds, which is the 9 foot pounds recommended by Toyota. I torqued the fasteners to that spec when Installed the pan, so I think checking the torque on them couldn't be that bad? Ones already set and cured won't budge, loose ones would. At least that's the way I see it. It's a 1/4" drive torque wrench, so I can feel the click pretty well.

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[Gnarly4X]

When I say torque down, I mean torque to the proper spec listed by Toyota. I set my torque wrench to 108 inch pounds, which is the 9 foot pounds recommended by Toyota. I torqued the fasteners to that spec when Installed the pan, so I think checking the torque on them couldn't be that bad? Ones already set and cured won't budge, loose ones would. At least that's the way I see it. It's a 1/4" drive torque wrench, so I can feel the click pretty well.

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If the Loctite is applied with clean threads on the bolt and the bolt holes in the block, and it cures for 24 hours, the bolts won't be loose.... if you torque them, it will take more then 9 ft lbs. to break them loose. 

With Loctite applied and cured, you should not need to re-torque.

Gnarls. 

[Toybrota [OP]]

Went out and checked if the bolts were at the same torque value originally set at...
Just clicks out of my torque wrench! Not a single one needed turning. Good, that means the thread locker has cured and nothing is loose. Win-win for me.
Every oil change, I'll verify that torque value.
Drain plug bolt is snug as it should be.
Here's a look at underneath, everything is nice and dry.

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[Gnarly4X]

Went out and checked if the bolts were at the same torque value originally set at...

Well... you got lots of "squish" on that "The Right Stuff"!!   So you did not use any gasket?

I used Ultra Black, and I let the bead dry about 2 hours before attempting to mount the pan.  I did not use any Loctite. 

Before applying the Ultra Black, I wiped my block and the pan mating surface with lacquer thinner to clean it from any residue.

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Well... you got lots of "squish" on that "The Right Stuff"!!   So you did not use any gasket?

I used Ultra Black, and I let the bead dry about 2 hours before attempting to mount the pan.  I did not use any Loctite. 

Before applying the Ultra Black, I wiped my block and the pan mating surface with lacquer thinner to clean it from any residue.

Gnarls.

The instructions for "The Right Stuff" is the same for the Toyota FIPG, as it's the same exact product.
Don't let anything "cure", just assembly and go. The stuff fully cures in five minutes, as the Toyota instructions for FIPG state.
I followed the Toyota specified placement, running the bead on the center of the pan circling the holes from the inside. I went "extra" and did the outsides of the holes as well, any extra there would simple squeeze out. I'll trim it later. It's easier to clean with a razor.


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[Gnarly4X]

The instructions for "The Right Stuff" is the same for the Toyota FIPG, as it's the same exact product.
Don't let anything "cure", just assembly and go. The stuff fully cures in five minutes, as the Toyota instructions for FIPG state.
I followed the Toyota specified placement, running the bead on the center of the pan circling the holes from the inside. I went "extra" and did the outsides of the holes as well, any extra there would simple squeeze out. I'll trim it later. It's easier to clean with a razor.
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Well T.... whatever you are doing keep doing it... it seems to be working quite well! 

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

No pan leaks! Nice and dry... Just the way I like it!
Man, it's almost wrong driving a Toyota that doesn't drip...
Not engine or motor related, but here's the interior I've been working on!
Yeah, that's $20 carpet from home Depot. No mildew, no mold, it's synthetic. Perfect for a truck.
Putting some actual miles on this thing later this weekend, can't wait!

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[Toybrota [OP]]

An engine question for you all.
To idle... Or not to idle?

Anyways, I starting working for the same company I use to before moving. This job has me using my truck, for about 2 - 3 hours straight, five nights a week.
I work for large apartment complexes and do trash, so I drive around large complexes collecting it and throwing it in a compactor. It pays well... Trust me!
When I arrive at the different unit buildings, I leave my truck idling. Throughout the night, I have my truck idling for about an hour an a half to two hours, and then driving for an hour. My question is in regarding the idling, is idling for THAT long consistently, five days a week bad for wear?
I can shut the truck off when I arrive at the different units, but that would have me restarting the truck maybe 40-50 times a night. Over the course of a few months, that's like a lifetime of engine restarts.
To me, the lesser of the two seems the idling.
My truck runs really cool, like about 180 - 185° pretty much constantly at idle. So no issues regarding temp. I don't believe excess fuel into the intake is happening, since it will idle for ten minutes and take off immediately without bogging or lugging.
My narrow band AFR gauge doesn't show anything at idle, so I have no idea if it's running too lean. I doubt it is. Fuel cost isn't an issue.
I change the oil every 3,000 anyways. Fuel in the oil maybe? I can smell and taste every day and report the difference. Day one - Sweet, with awful aftertones.
No accessories really to run other than the alternator, so no excess engine drag.

What do you all think? To idle, or not to idle? Shut it off, or leave it on? Melt the ice caps, or make the hippies happy? 


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[emsvitil]

How long would it be shut down for?

[Gnarly4X]

To idle... Or not to idle?

Idling your engine is WAY better than starting it many times during your job hours.

Millions of semi trucks are idled for hours and hours.

The RPM at idle will lower the oil pressure, but the amount pressure is sufficient to lubricate everything for the amount of pressure on the bearings, rings, cylinder walls, cam, and oil pump.

Starting an engine will wear and stress the starter, battery, all electrical wiring, fuel system components.  Most wear is known to be at cold starts while the oil pressure comes up to a sufficient PSI.

There's no way idling engine for 2 hours causes more engine wear than restarting that engine 50 times in 2 hours.

Of course, carbon monoxide and exhaust fumes could be an issue, depending on the environment.

That's just my opinion.... it may be worthless. 

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Idling your engine is WAY better than starting it many times during your job hours.

Millions of semi trucks are idled for hours and hours.

The RPM at idle will lower the oil pressure, but the amount pressure is sufficient to lubricate everything for the amount of pressure on the bearings, rings, cylinder walls, cam, and oil pump.

Starting an engine will wear and stress the starter, battery, all electrical wiring, fuel system components.  Most wear is known to be at cold starts while the oil pressure comes up to a sufficient PSI.

There's no way idling engine for 2 hours causes more engine wear than restarting that engine 50 times in 2 hours.

Of course, carbon monoxide and exhaust fumes could be an issue, depending on the environment.

That's just my opinion.... it may be worthless. 

Gnarls.

Thanks for your input on this!
I definitely was thinking about the oil pressure, but she sits about 14psi at hot idle. Which to me, sounds great! Gotta love the fast reacting autometer gauges...
It definitely isn't two hours of just idling, five ten minutes here, driving for a few, five ten minutes here... The truck is basically getting used, as a truck.
As long as I couple the idling with driving, and varying RPM when it's not, the wear should be normal.

For the fumes... Well.... No catalytic converter makes for some great smells!


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[Toybrota [OP]]

How long would it be shut down for?

Talking maybe five to ten minutes, for 40-50 times a night. Sometimes less, just depends.
Definitely long enough to need to start and run for a sec before moving. My Weber likes a good few seconds after a warm restart to get idling perfect, but then it's great!

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[Toybrota [OP]]

Wanted to get a look at my spark plugs, had this set in for I think maybe 2,000 miles or so?
What do you all think? Looks a bit lean to me, but an acceptable amount. That's just what I think though, and I'm no expert yet! My narrowband AFR gauge read close to 13.5 : 1 yesterday when doing full throttle pulls up hill. I don't believe this is that accurate, it's a narrowband gauge to begin with. 
That's cyl #1, they are all similar.
When I drive for fuel mileage I saw 19+mpg, which is pretty good for what the plugs look like. Any richer, and I would think I'd risk losing that Mpg?

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[Toybrota [OP]]

Here's #3 for craps and giggles. Pretty similar.

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[Gnarly4X]

The plugs look great. 

You did not use anti-seize on the threads.... did YOU!!??

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

The plugs look great. 

You did not use anti-seize on the threads.... did YOU!!??

Gnarls.

I did, I didn't want them to get seized. I looked it up, realized it's not a good idea.
Fresh plugs and no anti-seize now?

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[Gillesdetrail]

In general they look good, but they don't say anything precise about wide open a/f. They have to be new or close to new, engine shut off after a pull then you look at the plugs. If you have a closer picture of the ground strap, we can see about the timing. The discoloration should be at the apex of the curve.

[Toybrota [OP]]

In general they look good, but they don't say anything precise about wide open a/f. They have to be new or close to new, engine shut off after a pull then you look at the plugs. If you have a closer picture of the ground strap, we can see about the timing. The discoloration should be at the apex of the curve.

Absolutely, actual numbers say the most. Once I get a decent AEM wideband, I'll know for sure.

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[Gnarly4X]

There's lots of info on spark plugs and readings.

This one is mostly about racing engines and race fuels, but it has some very interesting information.

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/reading-the-plugs-spark-plug-tuning-with-different-fuels/


Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Today marked the one year "Anniversary" of when I picked up the truck this motor went into.
Here's a few before and Afters!
Hoping everyone enjoyed their holiday, and got to work on or drive their Yota'.

In other good news, I hit over 8,000 miles on the rebuild. Runs as great as it did day one. The valves Haven't been adjusted in over 2,500 miles, and they have remained quiet. I've been working upwards of 3 hours a night with the truck, which has me idling the truck for about 2 1/2 hours as mentioned before.
Other than the obviously decreased fuel economy, I can't see anything negative happening from the idling. The plugs looked pretty good last I had them out, so I don't think it running overly rich at idle is an issue. It never bogs when I go to accelerate, it's crisp and pretty linear so I think it's got a good lean idle, last small carb adjustment I set the mixture screw at about 2 turns out.

In about a month, I'll be driving this truck to Salt Lake City! Super stoked for the first real trip, before the max hours I drove was around 4.
The oil pan doesn't leak, and the underside of the truck is pretty dry. Loving this truck, and some of it's quirks.

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[emsvitil]

I think it's one of those before and after set of pictures where it's a different person...……......


 

[mwhite49]

Sounds like your on your way to having a great engine.
The one thing is who is enable parts supply,? Anyone have a link?

[Gnarly4X]

Today marked the one year "Anniversary" of when I picked up the truck this motor went into.
Here's a few before and Afters!
Hoping everyone enjoyed their holiday, and got to work on or drive their Yota'.

In other good news, I hit over 8,000 miles on the rebuild. Runs as great as it did day one.

Hey T…

Great job on that rebuild. 

Can I assume that you believe your rebuild is a success? 

I’ve said it before..... after reading 1000’s of posts and threads on 22x or 20 engine rebuilds it is more unusual to read about a very successful rebuild.  And, that includes the rebuilds done by an “expert” or “professional engine builder”.

It seems there are more rebuilds I read about, hear about, or actually witness, that end up with some issue or failure that requires many more hours of diagnosis and fixing.

It’s obvious it takes a certain level of knowledge, skills, experience, and tools to successfully rebuild a 10 to 50-year old engine.  Whether its a race engine to last one season, or a crawler to go 200,000 to 300,000 miles, the application design and blueprinting can be a key factor in meeting the intended results.

The budget is almost always a factor, but skimping on quality and proper rebuild procedures, especially the machine work, can come back to bite you big time. 

Choosing the correct and level of quality replacement parts and the technical abilities of the machine shop is critical to a successful rebuild.

I’d like to know what 3+ most important “things” that you believe contributed to the successful rebuild of your engine? 

Gnarls. 

[Toybrota [OP]]

Hey T…

Great job on that rebuild. 

Can I assume that you believe your rebuild is a success? 

I’ve said it before..... after reading 1000’s of posts and threads on 22x or 20 engine rebuilds it is more unusual to read about a very successful rebuild.  And, that includes the rebuilds done by an “expert” or “professional engine builder”.

It seems there are more rebuilds I read about, hear about, or actually witness, that end up with some issue or failure that requires many more hours of diagnosis and fixing.

It’s obvious it takes a certain level of knowledge, skills, experience, and tools to successfully rebuild a 10 to 50-year old engine.  Whether its a race engine to last one season, or a crawler to go 200,000 to 300,000 miles, the application design and blueprinting can be a key factor in meeting the intended results.

The budget is almost always a factor, but skimping on quality and proper rebuild procedures, especially the machine work, can come back to bite you big time. 

Choosing the correct and level of quality replacement parts and the technical abilities of the machine shop is critical to a successful rebuild.

I’d like to know what 3+ most important “things” that you believe contributed to the successful rebuild of your engine? 

Gnarls. 

Gnarls, thank you for the kind words!
I've sat on your comment for awhile now, thinking about how to answer. What three things can I attribute to my success? That's a very hard question to answer. Even harder to put it in order...

When doing anything mechanical for the first time, I think research is crucial to success. No one goes into a build (shouldn't, that is) with no idea what they are doing. In a lot of ways, I knew what I was doing from previous repairs, or other mechanical things I had done in life. Yet, I researched everything... I still do!
I don't think there will ever be a time when I will stop seeking information out, wether it be tips from guys like you... Or material from the Toyota gods themselves. Research really benefited this build early on, what parts do I use? Buy a full rebuild kit? Piece it out? What does everyone else use? What is known to fail? (Biggest right there).
So many questions that I had, got answered by simple research. Sometimes that was an easy Google search, other times it was searching through forums that haven't been updated since I was in diapers!
I think after research, that leads into parts.
I personally think parts choice on these rebuilds, really decides if it's a successful rebuild or not.
You can buy "rebuild" kits for so cheap on eBay from China, or you can go all out and buy a full kit from LC engineering. I didn't like either of these options, so I purchased what I believed to be the best mix of price, quality, and durability. Sometimes that means buying rocker arms from 22RE performance, but buying Pistons from LCE. 
I purchased parts from several different vendors over the course of the build, all vendors that I trust.
Engnbldr was a popular and pretty inexpensive vendor, I personally wasn't the happiest with what I had read about the quality. To each their own, he did sell some killer cams on the cheap!
I could've used Chinese piston rings, but I chose Hastings. Could've gotten a cheap water pump, but Aisin was the one for me.
Purchasing new hardware for everything was the best decision I did in terms of parts, it really makes things easy. (Hey LCE, stop with the 13MM bolt heads!)

Maybe finally, and in no certain order... Was checking my work. Being that we are all humans, we make mistakes... Wether that's forgetting the hinge pin in your engine stand, causing it to pivot and then fall on the ground... Or forgetting that a ratchet is still on the front balancer after a valve adjustment.
Yes, my engine fell OFF the stand (all dressed up, accessories, intake, carb) onto the ground. Always checked my work after that.
Another instance of checking my work I was thinking about the other day! It was in regards to the rod bushings... When I had gotten my rods back, they had checked and confirmed the bushings were within spec (they were, he showed and confirmed) yet there was play (very minimal) on one of the Pistons. Had I not had caught that, I don't think I'd be driving this today!! But since I did catch that, I got new bushings in. Because I doubled checked.
I checked the crank oil clearance with plastigauge, a quick and rudimentary way to eyeball the oil clearance. Still have stellar pressure!

I think finally, I learned some lessons during the build.
#1 - Buy legitimate precision measuring equipment, I wasn't able to check the piston to walk clearance
#2 - Buy new crank, (rear main is dryer than my prom date was, but a ground crank is always weaker)
#3 - Get a darn Weber from the start!

Been enjoying the truck some more. Haven't adjusted the valves in about 3,000 miles. They are a little noiser than before, but it's an OHC motor from the 80s. I shouldn't complain. May adjust them before my trip, but if they are the same when the time comes I don't think I will.
I am almost at 9,000 miles! Still no oil consumption, and the pan area is as dry as can be. I'm very excited to drive this thing to Salt Lake City from Vancouver here soon. Got no doubt it my mind that it'll make it!
I definitely won't be cruising at anything above 70 (may limit to 65) as I really don't like having that motor sit at 3,000 RPM for 6 hours at a time.




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[Gnarly4X]

Hi T....

Your commentary on how to do a successful basic rebuild is as well said as I've ever read! 

I wish I'd read it before I did MY rebuild! 

I believe the Toyota engineers designed your engine to run at 4,000 RPMs ALL DAY LONG.... it won't hurt it to tach it up. 

Gnarls.