Topic: 85 4runner, New Vehicle Purchase, Advice

[jessegibson]

Hey new to 4x4 and Crawling.  Do own mechanics on cars and motorcycles.  So I am not a complete tool. 

Was hoping people could give me advice on the truck I am about to purchase.  Having it check out by a 4x4 mechanic first, but curious what y'all think about this.  Here is the description from the ad.  Hopefully nothing is in need of major repair, but 4x4 shop will let me know once the inspection happens.




1985 4Runner Crawler 4X4 $7,500

Engine: rebuilt 22RE with TRD head. LC Engineering Header with aftermarket exhaust. Cold air intake with washable filter. Truck is way quicker than my stock 1992 22RE was.
Transmission: W56 five speed with heavy duty flywheel. Heavy duty clutch in great shape. B&M shifter with new bushings.
Dual transfer cases (Marlin Crawler). 4.7:1 and 2.28:1. 20 forward speeds, 4 reverse speeds. Lowest gear is almost 300:1!
5.29 axle gearing. Detroit Locker in rear (spare 90s Toyota V-6 rear axle). ARB Compressor and air locker in front (on/off selectable).
Bobby Long 30 spline super axles and birfields. Spare trail set included.
38.5" x 15.5" Super Swampers on 15" steel wheels. 75% tread remaining. Full size spare with new tire.
Can-back canvas soft top and frame. Recently re-sewed at Paul's canvas.
Electric winch, synthetic rope, remote control.
Hy-steer crossover steering conversion with IFS steering box (keeps components out of the rocks).
Tons of suspension work. Trail proven. Bilstein shocks. All components: steering, driveshafts, suspension are beefy.
Aftermarket front and rear bumpers and sliders. Lots of armor.
Complete A/C system (needs to be recharged).
Interior is clean, reasonable nice shape for a crawler.
Runs and drives great. About 200,000 miles, but most of the drivetrain is new!



Any input or insight appreciated.  Just don;t want to make a bad decision.

Thanks,

Jesse Gibson

[Cheesemaker]

Looks like a fair deal.  Post up some pictures. 

[Snowtoy]

Because of this,

Hey new to 4x4 and Crawling.

it is completely the wrong truck for you. 

Rock crawling is a hobby that is about 90% drivers skill, starting off with a rig like this will rob you of the skills/experience you will need to rely on when things break, or when you get into trails that a rig like this was built for.  Being new to the hobby, you should look for a stock rig, that you can build up as your skills develop.

[jessegibson [OP]]

Thanks for the opinions!

Would put up pics but I am not seeing an upload option.

Do I need to create a photobucket, etc account and then hyperlink the pics? Or what format, etc should I be using?

[OOPS]

You can have the most capable rig in the world, but if you do not know how to put it to the ground you are going nowhere and break stuff. While rockcrawling may look easy it can be very technical to make it all work.

To load pictures I use the ones I have on my computer. You need to click on the Attachments and other options at the bottom of the page.

[Snowtoy]

Thanks for the opinions!

Would put up pics but I am not seeing an upload option.

Do I need to create a photobucket, etc account and then hyperlink the pics? Or what format, etc should I be using?

Yes, since you haven't met the minimum number of posts(12, to avoid spammers), you will need to use photobucket.com or another host site, to post up pics.

[jessegibson [OP]]

Thanks, only need a couple more.  BTW, I don't plan on going straight to do what this truck can probably do with an experienced driver.  I'm just looking for a good deal on a truck that has been built correctly.

I know Crawling/Mudding is a whole world onto itself but I have raced cars and motorcycles.  On tarmac, have yet to get into Rally or Rally Cross.  At any rate, I appreciate the advice on going slow and steady.

It's alike a guy who 'has to have' a 1000cc Sport Bike for his first one.  He probably can't even handle a 600. 

So I totally get where you are coming from.

And I'll get around to the photobucket at some point, or just find a few threads to comment on, even if it's just a bump.

[Stlstrs]

Being new to the hobby, you should look for a stock rig, that you can build up as your skills develop.

I agree with this, but if a person goes into it knowing that they need to start slow, a built rig could save a bunch of cost in the long run. A person has to be smart enough to know their limits.

Not at all trying to start an argument.

[Snowtoy]

............I don't plan on going straight to do what this truck can probably do with an experienced driver.  I'm just looking for a good deal on a truck that has been built correctly.

I know Crawling/Mudding is a whole world onto itself but I have raced cars and motorcycles.  On tarmac, have yet to get into Rally or Rally Cross..............

Your racing skills wont be of any use to you rock crawling, they are two completely different skill sets, unless you want to "rock race", where all you do is throttle down until something breaks.

Another way you might want to look at this from your racing background, how would you advise someone who could afford to buy a Formula one car/wanted race it in the Indy 500 but had absolutely zero racing experience?  Would you tell him he could learn all the skills he needed to race at Indy if he first raced the F1 car against gocarts, or would you tell him the best way to learn how to race is to start off with a gocart and race other beginners, because there is more to racing than just driving fast?

[Snowtoy]

I agree with this, but if a person goes into it knowing that they need to start slow, a built rig could save a bunch of cost in the long run. A person has to be smart enough to know their limits.

Not at all trying to start an argument.

While I agree it is cheaper today to buy a built rig than to build one from stock, for a beginner this is the worst thing they can do.  The core driving skills of rock crawling are almost always used by oneself on teh trail, or when helping others, skills such as:
knowing how to read the trail(picking out the right/easiest line for your/others rigs),
knowing where the corners of their rig are,
knowing where the wheels are and how to place them on the rocks when you can no longer see the rocks,
where their drive train components are and what type of rocks they will hit/clear rocks and how to place tires to prevent that,
getting comfortable being what in off camber situations with little chance of rolling,
proper use of throttle/brakes in acents and descents,
how to get yourself back on the line you need to be on when thrown off it due to rocks/tire slipping etc.,
how to stack rocks to get yourself/others through a rough section(components break, when they do is not the time to learning recovery skills),
learning to follow/give hand signals so you can be directed/direct others through a section/back onto the right line,etc.
These skills simply can't be learned with a built rig no matter how slow you take it.  Starting off with a rig w/lockers/crawlers/38" tires will make the the beginner/intermediate trails no harder than driving the same truck to the mall, and as soon as a beginner gets to a section that does, he will be in way over his head.  In situations like this, the results are usually rollover, breakage, or worse yet having to have someone else drive his rig for him(happens more than it should).

Another reason a newbie should start out with a stock rig, is so that they know how to fix their rig through servicing it at home, not standing on the trails side holding a part and wrench(if they even have them) and not a clue of how to use them.

[Stlstrs]

I do agree. There is a lot more to it than just driving.

And, there is something to be said for building something from stock, yourself.

[Cheesemaker]

You can buy whatever you want to buy, but like said, there is something about building your own rig with your own bloody knuckles, and dripping sweat.  I love the feeling that I did that.  But if you can afford a rig, thats already built, then you decide.  I love my stock IFS, but I'm tired of tripoding, no flex, and slamming bumpstops cause they are 1" from your A-arms.  But I'll get there one day, one part at a time. 

[jessegibson [OP]]

So then what would you downgrade or not use based on how this truck is already equipped?  I don't have to engage the Dual Transfer Cases or Air Lockers.  In fact, I probably wouldn't attempt anything where that was necessary for quite a while, unless got stuck, etc.

And regarding comparing Crawling to Racing, those are apples and oranges.  Crawling is a young sport with less technological advancements compared to Formula or IRL or even SCCA Miata racing.  If the sport ever takes off enough to attract big sponsors maybe more advancements through expensive R&D would make it comparable.  But I think your example is slightly biased.

Definitely appreciate your opinion and that it brings caution and concern to the fore, but we probably differ in our experiences when it comes to tackling new sports/motorsports.

No hard feelings, and I do welcome your input.

[Snowtoy]

No offense taken.

I am not trying to be a killjoy here, and some may think I am being overly cautious(I may be), but I am just trying to help you avoid taking the route that I have seen some of my friends take, as well as that of many others over the years, and end up rolling your rig(as several people have done), or worse end up severely injured or 6' under.  Rock crawling can be about as much fun as you can have as an adult in a rig that is only moving 3-5 miles an hour, but it can also be deadly at that very same speed.  A simple slow flop can/and has killed people out on a the trail, and unlike a race track, out on the trail you are often hours away from a paramedic.

And regarding comparing Crawling to Racing, those are apples and oranges.  Crawling is a young sport with less technological advancements compared to Formula or IRL or even SCCA Miata racing.  If the sport ever takes off enough to attract big sponsors maybe more advancements through expensive R& would make it comparable.  But I think your example is slightly biased.

Your lack of knowledge of the history of our hobby is clouding your judgement.  While our hobby appears to be new, in reality it has been going on as long as there have been cars and people needing to get somewhere. 

The technological advancements our hobby has made/some areas actually created is what brought our hobby into the mainstream during the middle of the last decade.  While our sport looks to be very simple, the technology is there if you know what you are looking for, or have been wheeling for more than the last 10yrs or so.  The advances that our industry has made/actually invented in tire and suspension technology over the last 15yrs would/should rival that of the any advancements made in the racing industry over the same time period.

While our stuff may not look like it, most of us with built rigs have likely invested $25-30k in parts and labor, but like most automotive hobbies, the more you can do yourself, the less money you have to spend.  At one time people were spending an easy $50-60k for custom shop built rigs, and IIRC, competition buggies and "The King of the Hammers" rigs can easily top $100k. 

We also have sponsors and investment from the automotive industry, maybe not on par with Indy or NASSCAR, but certainly on par with the tuner-car hobby, drifting, and other forms of grass roots style racing.  Granted we don't get much media coverage, but unlike racing our hobby doesn't make itself available to large grandstands, also given the attention span of most adults today it moves way to slow to make for good TV, and even in person most of the events are rather boring from a spectators POV.

So then what would you downgrade or not use based on how this truck is already equipped?  I don't have to engage the Dual Transfer Cases or Air Lockers.  In fact, I probably wouldn't attempt anything where that was necessary for quite a while, unless got stuck, etc.

The main issue with the Runner you are considering buying as a beginner is its tire size, and the auto locker in the rear.  Tire size is the one thing that tends to rob a newbie of the ability to learn the skills they when they are actually on trails that require a large tire.  Unfortunately upping the tire size is the thing that most newbies do when they can't get through a rough section of a trail, i.e., they go out and try to buy the skill, rather than take the time to learn it.

The main problem with lockers in general, is that they tend to push you around on the trail, often off the line you want to be on, it also makes it hard to set yourself up for the line you want, get back on the line you want once pushed off.  This is why the selectable lockers are favored, and why newbies should avoid using them until they have learned the basics.  Picking the right line is about the most important skill you need to have in rock crawling, trying to find it and set yourself up for it is hard enough for a newbie, being pushed all over the trail just makes it harder.

If you are serious about buying the Runner and de-tuning it, you would want to drop the tires/suspension down to a 33" tall tire, if it is possible to do with the suspension/steering work that has already been done.  31's would be better, but the 5.29 gears would be too tall, they're a little tall for 33's, but not enough to cause issues, and those that run this set-up like it.  The 33's will give you teh opportunity to have to pic a line through most trail obstacles, where as the 35's or bigger often allow you to drive right over the top of them.  I would then swap the rear Detroit for an ARB.  This shouldn't cost you too much, the detroit with 5.29's is worth about $500 on the used market, you can often find used ARB's diffs in the $500-750 range, sometimes complete axles for less than $1000.  A new Arb/5.29 3rd would run you about $1500 or less, depending on who you buy it through, about $1000 to buy one and have it installed in your current 3rd.

After the downgrade wheel the set-up for a few hundred hours or so, until you are able to push it past the stuff that most think you need 35's or bigger for, then upgrade to 35's and start over.  From there you may decide to go to 37's, 38's, 42's, or even 52" tires if you desire, but the more you learn running around on 33's the better driver you will be in the long run.