Topic: CA Prop 19 Failed to pass!

[kneedownnate]

there was to much grey area for that law to pass

Why is it everybody gets wrapped up in emotion and overlooks the only pertinent response in the thread?  That's exactly it, the idiots who propose a decent bill ALWAYS screw up and allow idiotic things to be written in.  I don't smoke and never have, but I'm not against it being legal if done right, but they had it written so poorly that it would endanger people's lives. 

Do what you want at home or at a friend's, but in public it doesn't belong, and you know that's how people will twist it if legalized.  You can't get drunk and drive, so there's no reason you should be able to get high and drive 

And yes, I am getting tired of every 3rd or 4th car I pull in wreaking of pot!

[fj-rankenstein]

on most subjects, i am not like this, but
if you dont, or have never smoked, youre not really entitled to an opinion on this

i never have and never will only because i see how bad it can affect your body and your mind..  everyone is different and obviously pot smoking affects everyone different but god man, to say that my opinion isnt valid because i know better to not smoke??   almost half of my adult family smokes pot and i have seen first hand how it affects the situation..  my unkle who has been a smoke doper all his life was just diagnosed with lung cancer 3 months ago.. i dont see smoking pot helping him at all..  no one in my family has anything cancer related in our genes so how come the biggest dope smoker in the family has lung cancer??  his lungs are as black as anyone elses who smokes cigarettes.. to say that smoking dope can have benifit is ridiculous..
 as well, how can you not tell that someone is high or not??  can you not smell it?? see it in their eyes?? see the personallity change from when they are high or not high??  i dont know how you couldnt see that someone is high.. all the signs are there.. you just have to look..

quoting so called "facts" from other biased pro-pot sources is not convincing either..  these debates often tend to go that way when there is no real evidece or proof to support otherwise.. if the arguement was the fact that you just want to get high and that is that.. well than fine.  but to come up with offbeat weird facts and stats justifying how you as a person being high shows benifit, that is an awfully tough sell..   this is the same reason why it really hasnt been legalized yet..   there hasnt really been any real evidence showing that there is any benifit with out some sort of backlash or problem associated with it..  if there was a clear cut 100 percent reason and benifit for legalization, than i would probably see another side..

as well, no one can deny that smoking dope affects your reaction time and clouds your judgment.. i have seen my friends high and they become useless (or less useful) when in that state..  driving is the last place i want to see these people..   the bass player in my band (and one of my best friends) has been a long time dope smoker doesnt smoke before we do a gig...  only because he knows that his playing is hindered and he isnt as "on" when high..  its not fair to the other 3 of us when especially we are playing to the best of our abilities..  a lot of his "mind expansion" comes across as crap but when he is high he feels that a lot of his playing is mind blowing but when he comes down, he realizes that his greatness was more in his head than what actually came out...  

i do agree that drug awareness and education should be a priority..  we spend too much time and money just locking people up spending millions and billions when i think a portion of that money should go to teaching people the facts with cold hard evidence about the effects of drugs on your body..
  ultimatally though, it comes down to your decision..  you can present the pros and cons in any fashion you want but if you arent listening than you will miss the memo..
 eveyone deserves an opinion..  but i think based on your life experiences, age and first hand experience with drugs and drug abuse, your opinion can hold weight or perhaps not as much..

a few years back when i was in a youth rehab program helping chronically addicted chilren and teens kick drugs it was a definite eye opener to what an effect pot can have on your mind and body..  for the most part it always started off as an irregualar smoke here and there but depending what kind of personallity you are, it can escallate badly...  almost 100 percent of the time, it was pot that was the gateway drug that led to worse things..  worse meaning, either worse drugs or just getting in trouble with the law and such to support their habbit..   i spent close to 7 years dealing with kids and teens who smoked a lot of pot and trust me..  i see how it affects them personally and with other people..

this all being said, if it was out of sight out of mind and you were a grown up and can deal with consequences of being high in the privacy of your own home, well than fine.. do the things that make you happy. i just dont want to smell it because it literally makes me dry heave (wierd reaction..).. its your body and your business but when it becomes a problem and my healthcare prices go up because i am paying for your treatment and rehab and cancer treatments than it is becoming my business..

[RP-Zuki]

Myth: Marijuana Causes an Amotivational Syndrome. Marijuana makes users passive, apathetic, and uninterested in the future. Students who use marijuana become underachievers and workers who use marijuana become unproductive.

Fact: For twenty-five years, researchers have searched for a marijuana-induced amotivational syndrome and have failed to find it. People who are intoxicated constantly, regardless of the drug, are unlikely to be productive members of society. There is nothing about marijuana specifically that causes people to lose their drive and ambition. In laboratory studies, subjects given high doses of marijuana for several days or even several weeks exhibit no decrease in work motivation or productivity. Among working adults, marijuana users tend to earn higher wages than non-users. College students who use marijuana have the same grades as nonusers. Among high school students, heavy use is associated with school failure, but school failure usually comes first.

    *
      Himmelstein, J.L. The Strange Career of Marihuana: Politics and Ideology of Drug Control in America. Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 1983.

    *
      Mellinger, G.D. et al. “Drug Use, Academic Performance, and Career Indecision:  Longitudinal Data in Search of a Model.” Longitudinal Research on Drug Use:  Empirical Findings and Methodological Issues. Ed. D.B. Kandel. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association, 1978. 157-177.

    *
      Pope, H.G. et al., “Drug Use and Life Style Among College Undergraduates in 1989:  A Comparison With 1969 and 1978,” American Journal of Psychiatry 147 (1990): 998-1001.

I have seen both sides of this subject.  

For my first year of college, I lived in Weed, CA and you guessed it - the name says it all.  I am not proud of the things I did back then and haven't touched the stuff since the beginning of '95 - when I noticed my memory was getting worse.  I ditched all my pot smoking friends and enrolled in a different school to get away from that crowd and straighten my life out.

While I worked at Toyota, one of my coworkers was smoking weed all the time and coming into work high - putting everyone's safety at stake.  He caused several minor accidents at the dealer by bumping into other cars, poles and shop equipment.  Every time the manager sent him down for drug testing (company policy) and he turned up clean (he used some sort of body flush stuff).

I guess my point is, I don't care if someone has a drug problem, but when it becomes my problem, or if their drug use puts mine or my family's safety in jeopardy I am against it.  Since someones drug use will eventually puts someone's safety in jeopardy, I am definitely against Prop 19 and glad it didn't pass.

Cannabis was illegal, and yet your buddy was still able to "waste his life". So what did prohibition do? Why not try changing this failed system (70 year trial) and try something new? Cannabis is illegal, yet more people smoke today then ever before. It is obvious the drug war is a waste of money.

Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results...

[RP-Zuki]

Why is it everybody gets wrapped up in emotion and overlooks the only pertinent response in the thread?  That's exactly it, the idiots who propose a decent bill ALWAYS screw up and allow idiotic things to be written in.  I don't smoke and never have, but I'm not against it being legal if done right, but they had it written so poorly that it would endanger people's lives. 

Do what you want at home or at a friend's, but in public it doesn't belong, and you know that's how people will twist it if legalized.  You can't get drunk and drive, so there's no reason you should be able to get high and drive 

And yes, I am getting tired of every 3rd or 4th car I pull in wreaking of pot!

Did you read the bill? Honestly?

It specifically said no smoking in public places. So no, no one could "twist it". Phillips already has a saliva test unit to test DUI for cannabis. Google it.

You currently cannot smoke and drive. They can perform field sobriety tests and arrest you if suspected of DUI. Nothing would change under prop 19.

I am sorry you do not like the smell of cannabis. I am tired of getting into customers cars and it wreacking of booze, cigs, perfume, ass, etc. But I would never look to make laws against it.

Again, you guys are arguing for MORE government. MORE regulation. Why?

[RP-Zuki]

i never have and never will only because i see how bad it can affect your body and your mind..  everyone is different and obviously pot smoking affects everyone different but god man, to say that my opinion isnt valid because i know better to not smoke??   almost half of my adult family smokes pot and i have seen first hand how it affects the situation..  my unkle who has been a smoke doper all his life was just diagnosed with lung cancer 3 months ago.. i dont see smoking pot helping him at all..  no one in my family has anything cancer related in our genes so how come the biggest dope smoker in the family has lung cancer??  his lungs are as black as anyone elses who smokes cigarettes.. to say that smoking dope can have benifit is ridiculous..
 as well, how can you not tell that someone is high or not??  can you not smell it?? see it in their eyes?? see the personallity change from when they are high or not high??  i dont know how you couldnt see that someone is high.. all the signs are there.. you just have to look..

quoting so called "facts" from other biased pro-pot sources is not convincing either..  these debates often tend to go that way when there is no real evidece or proof to support otherwise.. if the arguement was the fact that you just want to get high and that is that.. well than fine.  but to come up with offbeat weird facts and stats justifying how you as a person being high shows benifit, that is an awfully tough sell..   this is the same reason why it really hasnt been legalized yet..   there hasnt really been any real evidence showing that there is any benifit with out some sort of backlash or problem associated with it..  if there was a clear cut 100 percent reason and benifit for legalization, than i would probably see another side..

as well, no one can deny that smoking dope affects your reaction time and clouds your judgment.. i have seen my friends high and they become useless (or less useful) when in that state..  driving is the last place i want to see these people..   the bass player in my band (and one of my best friends) has been a long time dope smoker doesnt smoke before we do a gig...  only because he knows that his playing is hindered and he isnt as "on" when high..  its not fair to the other 3 of us when especially we are playing to the best of our abilities..  a lot of his "mind expansion" comes across as crap but when he is high he feels that a lot of his playing is mind blowing but when he comes down, he realizes that his greatness was more in his head than what actually came out...  

i do agree that drug awareness and education should be a priority..  we spend too much time and money just locking people up spending millions and billions when i think a portion of that money should go to teaching people the facts with cold hard evidence about the effects of drugs on your body..
  ultimatally though, it comes down to your decision..  you can present the pros and cons in any fashion you want but if you arent listening than you will miss the memo..
 eveyone deserves an opinion..  but i think based on your life experiences, age and first hand experience with drugs and drug abuse, your opinion can hold weight or perhaps not as much..

a few years back when i was in a youth rehab program helping chronically addicted chilren and teens kick drugs it was a definite eye opener to what an effect pot can have on your mind and body..  for the most part it always started off as an irregualar smoke here and there but depending what kind of personallity you are, it can escallate badly...  almost 100 percent of the time, it was pot that was the gateway drug that led to worse things..  worse meaning, either worse drugs or just getting in trouble with the law and such to support their habbit..   i spent close to 7 years dealing with kids and teens who smoked a lot of pot and trust me..  i see how it affects them personally and with other people..

this all being said, if it was out of sight out of mind and you were a grown up and can deal with consequences of being high in the privacy of your own home, well than fine.. do the things that make you happy. i just dont want to smell it because it literally makes me dry heave (wierd reaction..).. its your body and your business but when it becomes a problem and my healthcare prices go up because i am paying for your treatment and rehab and cancer treatments than it is becoming my business..

Insitute of Medicine is pro-pot?

Harvard pro-pot?

My links are all valid studies. All links are valid. Sources sited. No BS.

There is no logical explanation for prohibition. Only fear and misinformation.

[Shamb]

I didn't read everyone's responses but I did skim a few. I'm not surprised it didn't pass only because there's a certain type of majority that vote and they're not pot smoking hippies.

How ever, I know a large amount of people that smoke on a daily basis and function perfectly fine as a contributing member of society because they keep it within limits. Obviously there's the one's out there that go overboard and ruin their lives but the same can be said for any drug / alcohol.

If this would have had the capability to get us out of the recession and start increasing jobs ect then I would have been all for it.

I don't smoke so it would not have affected me in any way shape or form.

[fj-rankenstein]

i am just stating that a lot of the links that people generally post are very biased from sources that dont have or show any input from other valid sources other than "because joe who lives down the street from me smokes pot and he is normal.." kind of links..    most supported facts are usually countered with links from other sources other than presenting facts of their own when dealing with pot..   no one really has a better arguement other than in the end that they just want this drug legalized so they can get high..its basically what it always comes down to..

the plant itself is good for making hemp type products.. i fully support the growth of the plant itself..  heavy ropes for towing vehicles and working in the heavy equipment industry is some of the best rope that i have used but it will always be a tough sell i think if its any more than that..   it usually is sold by pro-pot supporters as "look at all these amazing thing that we can do with this plant...  and...  ah hell, lets get high.."    it just goes downhill from there...

the whole medical thing is a sham as well....  because its natural?  sure...  i want to make my pain go away, but i have a chance of aquiring any number of other health problems including any types of cancers from breathing in carcinogens..  WTF??     this makes no sense..   the medical industry has made huge leaps and bounds as far as pain killers and relief goes over the last 40 years. ..  to think that pot is the only answer to healing your pain is ridiculous..  thats the drugs and addiction talking..  not common sense...

the good thing about this is that i dont need to post links..  all of my opinions that i have are based on actually working with people that are on pot and want to stop and of seeing how it affects a family first hand both with my own and others that i have worked with..   i think the proof is in the evidence and i still cant see any proof the the positive effects of legalizing pot so someone can be high...

[RP-Zuki]

fj - Arguing against the well established medical benefits has become taboo even in the most conservative political circles. It is widely accepted that the plant offers various medicinal benefits. I don't think we will ever see eye to eye. We can agree to disagree.   

[JanMarie13]

I don't think we will ever see eye to eye. We can agree to disagree.   

  The best way to debate, for sure!   I'm really glad to see that this thread isn't getting out of control. 

Let's just watch the references to drinking and driving--we all know it's not OK, we don't want it to appear otherwise.

I guess while I'm at it I may as well chime in with my own opinion on the matter.  haha.  I personally don't believe it's possible for pot to single-handedly ruin a person's life.  If they've gone that far, they had much bigger "problems" than smoking pot.  Never heard of anyone dying from a pot overdose.  Never heard of anyone smoking a joint and then beating their wife because it made them all crazy.  I feel there are many prescription drugs out there that do a person much worse than weed.  It grows in nature!  You don't even have to manufacture weed!  lol

And anyway in regards to the medicinal benefits, all I can say about that is...I just lost my stepmother to lung cancer in February.  You would not believe the number of doctors who pulled her aside in the hallway at the Cancer Treatment Centers of America to tell her that, since NOTHING was working for her nausea, she needed to try marijuana.  It was the only thing that even remotely worked for her, even after countless prescriptions for anti-nausea medication.  They eventually gave her a prescription for THC pills, but that didn't work either.  Has to be smoked, that was the only thing that helped.

[Sparkplug]

It just seems like all the people that want it have FACTS about why it is beneficial, and all the people that dont want, just have their opinion. Thats why it wasnt legalized, everyone thinking they know everything about it, when they arent even in the loop. there have been countless studies, it is THE MOST STUDIED PLANT IN THE WORLD. They have tons of info on it, if u are willing to o[pen your mind and read the FACTS.

[Sparkplug]

And to say it ruined your family is ignorant also. unless you believe all the homeless bums in my town, were made that way by booze, cause when the beg for change, thats what they seem to buy. If you are a piece of , your a piece of . To say that he got lung cancer from marijuana smoke is also ignorant. If this was the case, he would be first in line for TONS of top notch research free, because he would be the first. Seems to me, you are just another person, who speaks of stuff, when they actually have 0 facts on the matter. Sorry but I get a tad offended about marijuana, expecially when people are spreading lies, not facts.

[gnob]

thanks sparkplug and zuki.

it makes me upset when people spout their uninformed opinions like gospel.

i wish i had the links, my bud was showing me videos of the conservatives saying how we should legalize it, because of the waste going into policing it.  CONSERVATIVES FOR LEGALIZATION hmmmmmm.

its fine to have an opinion.  its better when you have an INFORMED opinion. 
because you know a guy, who said he knew a guy, that died from weed doesnt hold any weight in any discussion.

its like saying sex is evil and bad without having done it.  and yes the comparative is very close for those of you still  scared.

[Sparkplug]

For those that want to be educated, on histroy channel tonight is all the facts about marijuana, good AND bad, for those on coast with satellite, its on in an hour. They timed it to be right after the vote for a reason. Its called "Maijuana: A chronic history"

[BigMike]

I have skimmed through the replies posted. I wasn't convinced one way or the other, but from an economy stand point, I voted yes (I didn't bat an eye when it failed).

I don't drink alcohol or smoke or do any drugs other than caffeine (love me some ice tea!)

I do have concerns regarding DUI of pot: Let's say it passed and people can go to AMPM to pick some up, and they get out on the interstate and get high while driving. Is there any way to test if you are high while driving a car in a like manner as there is a breathalyzer for blood alcohol content? I am wondering if a cop pulled over someone who he thought was high, what would he do, a spot-check urine test? What if the guy can't pee? I'm being serious, I don't know anything about drug testing someone who is high. Also, for people who are on probation, I know there are devices that safe-guard car ignitions from working unless you prove you are not drunk. Do we have the technology to do the same for someone high?

Thanks,
Mike

[Sparkplug]

Yes there is a saliva test. But as far as I know, it cant tell how high you are, just when you last smoked. Which IMO leaves some gray area. Im sure they could make something to put in your car you gotta pay for to test if your sober. They love money. A urine test wouldnt tell you anything. Just if they smoked in the last 14-90 days. Pot stroes itself in your fat cells, so it stays in fat people longer than skinny people. It is not phyically addicting, u dont TRY and kick pot. There are no withdrawals whatsoever. It is mentally addicting to SOME people, these being the type that use it as a cop out for not finding a job, or being plain lazy. I like how bigmike said he doesnt drink or smoke, but he does drink caffeine. This is sooo true, people dont look at how many substances they take everyday, that affect their motor skills, judgement, and all that. They just believe what was imprinted in tehir minds when they were early on, or stick their head in the dirt, and refuse to listen to NEW FACTS, that prove old ways of thinking are ignorant.

[Sparkplug]

To say pot causes laziness, is to say alcohol causes alcholism. Its not the drug, its the person

[BigMike]

Thanks for the reply

To say pot causes laziness, is to say alcohol causes alcholism. Its not the drug, its the person

Again, I'm ignorant on the matter & I'm not against people doing whatever they want to do (I don't judge others), but you may need to word that differently. Alcoholism I believe is a self induced habit of consuming alcohol whereas I have had plenty of lazy days in my life yet I haven't even seen pot in real life with my own eyes before.


EDIT: Wait, I think I just contradicted myself hahahahah oh well I'm gonna leave what I wrote

EDIT 2: I'm just saying you're comparing apples & oranges to apples & apples.

[Sparkplug]

Addiction is addiction, whether u get addicted to alcohol, or toyotas, u can be an addict. That was the point. They teach this concept in AA and NA, its not the drug, it addiction itself. Saying pot shouldnt be legal because it makes people un motivated, or lazy, is like saying having alcohol legal, cause people to drink it, get hooked on it, and ruin their lives over it. Both ignorant statements.

[Sparkplug]

Documentray says,
marijuana taxation will bring in at least 10 billion dollars nationally, thats the low figure, they figure 14-20 billion nationally.
Number 1 cause of medicinal deaths is from pharmeceuticals.
 George Washington grew pot on his farm.
190 million users worldwide.
Most widely used drug on the planet.
 It is not 100 percent legal ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
  60 percent in US have tried it, 55 million use it regularly. (Thats about 1 in 4 for dude that say he dont associtate with pot smokers)
15 nations have eliminated or reduced criminal charges for marijuana. It elimnated the black market in those countries.
 The US pressures other nations to keep it illegal.
 Portugal decide to treat instead of jail, COMPLETE DECRIMINALIZATION OF ALL DRUGS, use went down, crime went down, teen use down or stable, infections down.
 In amsterdam, teen transition to hard drugs is NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME AS US, FAR LOWER.
 3.2 billion generated for dutch community from marijuana.
 Humans have been using marijuana for 1000s of years.
 Canvas word comes from word cannabis, because early clothing was made from cannabis.
 Early american history surround hemp plant.  
Anslinger and Nixon are responsible for putting the view that it is bad in the minds of older generations.
Illegalization creates black markets and violence
600 billion spent on war on drugs since 1961   (can you say no bang for buck)
Marijuana is said to be safest recreational substance
Marijuana relieves pressure from eyes due to glaucoma   (for the dude who says it has no MEDICAL benefits)
Is believed to have a factor in alzheimers, diabetes, and cancer, DUE TO LEGAL USSUES STUDIES ARE SLOW
Helps Pain, nausea and appetite, helps terminal patients have some quailty of life, EVEN WHEN OTHER MAN MADE DRUGS FAIL
Fed gov has put marijuana in same category as heroin and lsd. Schedule 1
Cocaine and amphetamine are Schedule 2, deemed better for you than marijuana by the fed govt
Caffeine and sugar have proven to be worse for your body in obese amounts, than marijuana NORMAL amounts
Marijuna can be eaten, with NO BAD EFFECT AT ALL TO YOUR BODY
A marijuana user is arrested every 30 seconds in the united states
The future of marijuana is expected to evolve to edibles
13.7 BILLION spent on marijuna related investigations and arrests

[BLACKDOG]

Big Mike,
you've actually brought up a point that we were discussing at work not that long ago.  Someone here may have a good answer, so please feel free to share.

Quick little background for those that don't know.  I'm a firefighter in Reno.  If an operator gets into an accident (his fault or not), he is immediately taken for drug testing (after medical attention of course.)  Now, we all know that with alcohol it is pretty easy to test that it is in your system, and how much (within a margin of error).  NV has the same BAC content limit as CA, being .08, with a .04 or .02 for commercial drivers (not sure which).  That number goes straight out the window if you've caused and accident or caused harm.  

As was stated, Marijuana stays in the system for a much longer time than booze, (30 days roughly?)
How would we as a society determine the level of the effect of the drug over time?  In my scenario, if an operator had smoked weed (speaking as if it were a legal drug), at a party, then 3 days later went to work and drove, are they still under the influence?  It will show up in they're system, but does that mean its affecting their judgement?  How do we determine that level? and do we make it a sliding scale, as it stores longer in fat people?  




As for the proposition, I think legalizing pot is a good idea, but not the way CA was going about it.  I believe it should be legalized and treated the same as tobacco products and booze.  Taxed, restricted, and have better quality control.  It will also help eliminate small time crime, and help alleviate our overcrowding of prisons.

I am not nor have I ever been a pot smoker, but I've seen the effects of both it and many other drugs, in both friends and at work (we get to go pick up all the people that are suffering from the effects of the drugs, whatever they may be.)  In my experience, we pick up a lot more people suffering from heroin effects and alcohol than anything else.

[Rockcrawlintoy]

Big Mike,
you've actually brought up a point that we were discussing at work not that long ago.  Someone here may have a good answer, so please feel free to share.

Quick little background for those that don't know.  I'm a firefighter in Reno.  If an operator gets into an accident (his fault or not), he is immediately taken for drug testing (after medical attention of course.)  Now, we all know that with alcohol it is pretty easy to test that it is in your system, and how much (within a margin of error).  NV has the same BAC content limit as CA, being .08, with a .04 or .02 for commercial drivers (not sure which).  That number goes straight out the window if you've caused and accident or caused harm.  

As was stated, Marijuana stays in the system for a much longer time than booze, (30 days roughly?)
How would we as a society determine the level of the effect of the drug over time?  In my scenario, if an operator had smoked weed (speaking as if it were a legal drug), at a party, then 3 days later went to work and drove, are they still under the influence?  It will show up in they're system, but does that mean its affecting their judgement?  How do we determine that level? and do we make it a sliding scale, as it stores longer in fat people?  




As for the proposition, I think legalizing pot is a good idea, but not the way CA was going about it.  I believe it should be legalized and treated the same as tobacco products and booze.  Taxed, restricted, and have better quality control.  It will also help eliminate small time crime, and help alleviate our overcrowding of prisons.

I am not nor have I ever been a pot smoker, but I've seen the effects of both it and many other drugs, in both friends and at work (we get to go pick up all the people that are suffering from the effects of the drugs, whatever they may be.)  In my experience, we pick up a lot more people suffering from heroin effects and alcohol than anything else.

i believe there are federal guidelines for commercial drivers as well. im sure since there is a federal law against marijuana the driver would still be unable to use that drug even though it would be "legal" in the state

[Sparkplug]

For the record, legalizing pot would not help the prison sytem in california at all. You dont go to prison for pot, the VERY few that grow enough for cali to care, 9 out of 10 times get probation. Marijuanas effects last anywhere from 2-8 hours depending on the person. For what I would conider a normal drinker, 3-4 beers a night, same with the pot, 3-4 bowls at night, whcih most only smoke 1 or 2, you would stay stoned for prob 3-4 hours. Would be PERFECTLY FINE in the am, regardless igf you were a first time smoker, or a chronic user. This is with someone on same scale of tolerance as alsohol. You can snap out of being stoned also, dunno about being drunk.

[BigMike]

Interesting discussion gentlemen

Speaking about the federal law, how long would a California law last? Wouldn't the government step in and put a stop to it (since it is against federal law)?

[46&2]

Interesting discussion gentlemen

Speaking about the federal law, how long would a California law last? Wouldn't the government step in and put a stop to it (since it is against federal law)?

Eric Holder already announced that if California did/had passed 19, that the Justice Department and DEA would vigorously enforce federal law. They have already been running around California busting people legal under Prop 215 for 15 years now, so there is no reason for them to stop if California had passed it. Kind of like how the Obama administration sued AZ over their immigration law. If you take the official statement of why the Feds sued Arizona, all you have to change is Arizona to California and immigration to drug and it would be the same thing they'd use against California.

Not to mention like Prop 8, all it takes is one judge to agree its "unconstitutional" and out the window it goes.

[BAMF]

I would say this is all a moot point since prop 19 failed, however the issue of legalizing marijuana is certainly far from being over and therefore the arguments remain legitimate.

BigMike, in response to your question regarding field testing for marijuana DUI, yes there is a way to test.

Currently in California if you are stopped for suspicion of driving under the influence, whether alcohol, marijuana, methamphetamines, etc., the standard investigation involves a battery of field sobriety tests FST (one leg stand, walk and turn, etc.) which, based on your performance, the officer determines you level of impairment.  This is all done prior to an arrest being made.  If one is subsequently arrested for suspicion of DUI then you are required by California law to submit to a chemical test.  For alcohol this is usually done with a breath test or a blood test.  For anything else it is usually a blood or urine test.

Now we are all familiar with the concept of a ‘breathalyzer’ or such a device that can instantly determine your level of blood alcohol content BAC.  There is no such device for testing for marijuana.  However, that is not to say that there are not other tests which involve saliva, urine, etc.  The problem is twofold.  1) you would have to get the court system to recognize the validity of such filed tests and 2)  would it be a requirement to submit to such a test?  Remember, in order to use one of those tests you would have to provide a sample of your blood, urine, etc.  Normally the government/state/law enforcement can’t compel you to give such a sample without a warrant.  Even a sample of your exhaled breath (for a ‘breathalyzer’ device) is not mandatory on the side of the road.  Prior to an arrest anyone can decline to provide such a sample.  Hell, even breath samples obtained voluntarily on the side of the road do not hold up in court as evidence.  For that one needs to provide a required sample, after arrest, which is done on a completely different machine which meets court requirements (these requirements actually differ from county to county depending on the whims of the district attorneys).

[BAMF]

Now that I’ve rambled on long enough, on to BLACKDOG who points out that marijuana (specifically THC), which stays in your system for a hell of a lot longer than alcohol.  We would have to set standards on what are acceptable levels of influence and not just impairment.  FST’s are an adequate way of judging impairment but what about influence?  For alcohol we all know the acceptable level of influence is below .08% BAC, however you can still be arrested for being below .08% if you are still impaired as determined by FST’s (23152 (a) CVC vs 23152 (b) CVC).

[BAMF]

One last point for Sparkplug  and this may start an argument so please don’t take it the wrong way.  You absolutely can not “snap out” of being stoned (or drunk).  You may suddenly be able to focus a lot better on the situation at hand (say when you notice that black and white car behind you has pretty red and blue lights and why for the love of god is he tailgating me and why won’t he pass me is that a Crown Victoria, aw crap!) but your fine motor skills (which is what FST’s test for) are still just as impaired.  What this translates to is when you’re driving under the influence of a drug (or alcohol) your reactions time, depth perception, special awareness, multitasking functionality, ect., all things which are essential to safe driving, are still just as impaired.  This is why it is so dangerous to drive while under the influence/impairment of any substance.  This also ties in nicely with the question of the long term use of marijuana and its effect on people.   i.e. how a ‘hit’ may effect a first time user vs a life time stoner.  Both a life time user of marijuana and an alcoholic may appear functionally able while under the influence of their drug of choice but their fine motor skills are just as diminished as BigMike’s would be after his first bong hit followed by shot gunning his first cold beer.

[Sparkplug]

Dont know what you mean by my motor skills are impaired? I can turn a wrench, weld a bead, do a backflip on flat ground, read 100s of pages of information,and reatin it all, and pass every FST ive ever been given, when is was "under the influence" of marijuana. I believe not evryone can :SNAP OUT: of being stoned, but if you yourself were a regualr smoker, you would understand that marijuana does not affect your body like that. Also, in case you didnt know, but there are 2 other active ingredients in marijuana BESDIES THC, that affect you. Its a common misconception that THC is wat gets you "HIGH"

[Sparkplug]

IMO, this is just my opinion, but i dont believe marijuana effetcs you enough to warrant it being illegal while driving, but in my eyes, it is the same as caffeine. Tons of people runnin around hopped up on monster, or 10 cups of joe, runnin on nothing but 2 hrs sleep, and some go juice. And I believe it was determined driving while on a phone or texting is more dangerous than driving while drinking. Yet not all states have it illegal last time i checked.

[BAMF]

Fortysixandtwo, I actually voted in support of prop 19 in order to propel the argument of state rights vs federal rights to the forefront.  The federal government has gotten far too pervasive in our lives and is to strong an influence on state issues.  Just look at Arizona or the recent health care 'reform.'  We tend to forget in The United States of America that we are just that; united states with our own ideas and laws.  We are not one giant country, with all of the same laws, that all feel the same about every issue.  In Reno NV you can shoot your M-16 off all day long while a couple miles away in Tahoe CA the same act makes you a felon, different states have different age of consent laws, in some states its illegal to rock a foot of lift and 42 inch tires, in Florida you can run over someone who is car jacking you while across the continental divide in California the same act can ultimately put you on death row (I hear San Quentin is beautiful this time of year).  Hey federal government, if California decides for its very own specific reasons that smoking pot should be legal why don't you worry about more pressing issues like keeping China from becoming our next overlords or trying to figure where those trillions of tax dollars we gave you disappeared to.

Thomas Jefferson absolutely meant it when he said "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."