Winching questions?

[Volcom]

Everywhere you read on the off-road forums, people say not to winch with a recovery strap (straps that stretches slightly) and that you should use a "static" straps that doesn't stretch as a winch extension.

Here's a thread talking about a couple companies color coding their straps.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f27/finally-new-safer-approach-tow-snatch-straps-982599/

My big question is why can't you winch with a recovery strap?  I've actually done it several times with my 30,000lb recovery strap with no ill effects.  I understand that having the recovery strap stretch isn't ideal while winching but it's a minimal amount.

I have also linked 2 recovery straps with a big shackle (16,500lb WLL d-ring) to access a decent winching point.  I guess that practice is also not suggested.

[Steve_925]

heres my experiance. i was pulling a 2wd chevy out of the beach at pismo using my strap(doesnt stretch) connected to there strap with a big ass shackle, well there strap broke wich was connected to my truck so the shackle sling shoted into there truck. you can see the picture a few inches higher and it could have been bad. i guess the same could happen with a winch line

[Rocksurfer]

I don't like most straps on the market that are available for the 4x4 community for just those reasons. They are not the best for real recovery work. Also don't like the "new" winch cable line out there, again available for the 4x4 community. Cry and moan about my liking steel cable and chain but it is the best and strongest over the long haul. There are some straps that I will be Ok with but they have to be of the highest quality and from a true recovery company. I've been in the "business" of recovery work since I was 18 and actually younger working at a gas station when I was in high school and not only have heard but seen the results of failure. Those straps an synthetic cables breaking can kill you just as quick as steel, ever wonder why recovery experts still use steel line? When I replace my equipment I get them from towing supply companies, not 4 Wheel Parts, Warn, or any other company like that. They target the average 4x4 user and supply you with less than stellar equipment and accessories. Google "towing supplies" for the best real suppliers of recovery equipment that won't fail when you are using them. Here's one that I use for my recovery needs on any of my 4x4's, playing with the cheap seldom used stuff that the 4x4 market pushes just don't cut it. I have never had any equipment failure, but have watched as others that I wheel with have there winch lines, straps, savers, etc, etc.

There's a lot more to than just throwing a winch on the front of your truck and then being able to winch with it, just as a simple example, most of you throw your winch on and then securing the line to the front and then winching it tight. This is not a good thing to do. Not only is it bad on the winch itself but can kink the cable creating a weak spot for failure. By just keeping the line too tight on the drum you can cause the line to fray in places you cannot see like the point where the hook is.

Believe it or not there is a lot of training involved with the proper use of a winch and the equipment involved that most weekend warriors just don't understand. A good example of the right way was demonstrated last year at Panamint Valley Days, I was really impressed and could tell there was a professional recovery expert involved.

http://www.awdirect.com/

[possume22]

doesnt anybody throw a shirt jacket or anything on the cables and straps come on thought that was a well known thing to do?? that way if it breaks it goes toward the ground

[junya92toy]

Cuz it stretches and stores energy. If something breaks its can whip back and kill someone.

[peacesells]

I carry lots of towels and a packing blanket and use crane lifting straps all the time. Seen several failures, but the blankets/towels kill the energy very well when done right. I always make everyone stand out of the swinging range of the cable or in a vehicle. Not professional I know, but it works when done right and satisfys me and im a pretty safe dude.

[possume22]

peacesells i guess where the only safe ones around i thought putting stuff on cables and straps was common knowledge  but guess not

[junya92toy]

Instead of stuff on the cable try a winch blanket. And its we're not where

[Joey88RUNR]

peacesells i guess where the only safe ones around i thought putting stuff on cables and straps was common knowledge  but guess not

Ive seen it done alot, I reccomend it

[Volcom]

Yeah, I guess it would suck to have a winch cable let go with a shackle joining recovery straps.  I guess I'll be looking for a static strap for those winch pulls when I need extra length.  I usually try to put something heavy over the winch cable.  Putting a jacket or sweatshirt doesn't cut it.  It needs to have some weight and resistance to it.

Like Peacesells, I make sure everyone is out of the way of the cables & straps. 

Thanks for the help!

[possume22]

jerry92toy i dont thunk whobody cares i misspelled them there wards me  dont and yes i ment stuff on the cable logs shirtd jackerts tree lambs all work good it dont take much weight to keep a broken strap cable toward the ground and what does a winch blanket do a shirt or jackert dont beside not cost a dirme and doesnt have a wench name brAnd on it sorry but but if this is a proper grammer forum i dont belung i see it all the time who cares you see it all the time people correct people all the time why try to make them feel stupid im sarry everybody doesnt live in a well adecatud place like you but god bless you and have a nice day

[axled89]

jerry92toy i dont thunk whobody cares i misspelled them there wards me  dont and yes i ment stuff on the cable logs shirtd jackerts tree lambs all work good it dont take much weight to keep a broken strap cable toward the ground and what does a winch blanket do a shirt or jackert dont beside not cost a dirme and doesnt have a wench name brAnd on it sorry but but if this is a proper grammer forum i dont belung i see it all the time who cares you see it all the time people correct people all the time why try to make them feel stupid im sarry everybody doesnt live in a well adecatud place like you but god bless you and have a nice day

LOL!!   that's funny.

[Steve_925]

jerry92toy i dont thunk whobody cares i misspelled them there wards me  dont and yes i ment stuff on the cable logs shirtd jackerts tree lambs all work good it dont take much weight to keep a broken strap cable toward the ground and what does a winch blanket do a shirt or jackert dont beside not cost a dirme and doesnt have a wench name brAnd on it sorry but but if this is a proper grammer forum i dont belung i see it all the time who cares you see it all the time people correct people all the time why try to make them feel stupid im sarry everybody doesnt live in a well adecatud place like you but god bless you and have a nice day

awsome

[Caboose]

jerry92toy i dont thunk whobody cares i misspelled them there wards me  dont and yes i ment stuff on the cable logs shirtd jackerts tree lambs all work good it dont take much weight to keep a broken strap cable toward the ground and what does a winch blanket do a shirt or jackert dont beside not cost a dirme and doesnt have a wench name brAnd on it sorry but but if this is a proper grammer forum i dont belung i see it all the time who cares you see it all the time people correct people all the time why try to make them feel stupid im sarry everybody doesnt live in a well adecatud place like you but god bless you and have a nice day

Thank you my head now hurts... 

[Rocksurfer]

 

[Phazertwo]

I don't like most straps on the market that are available for the 4x4 community for just those reasons. They are not the best for real recovery work. Also don't like the "new" winch cable line out there, again available for the 4x4 community. Cry and moan about my liking steel cable and chain but it is the best and strongest over the long haul. There are some straps that I will be Ok with but they have to be of the highest quality and from a true recovery company. I've been in the "business" of recovery work since I was 18 and actually younger working at a gas station when I was in high school and not only have heard but seen the results of failure. Those straps an synthetic cables breaking can kill you just as quick as steel, ever wonder why recovery experts still use steel line? When I replace my equipment I get them from towing supply companies, not 4 Wheel Parts, Warn, or any other company like that. They target the average 4x4 user and supply you with less than stellar equipment and accessories. Google "towing supplies" for the best real suppliers of recovery equipment that won't fail when you are using them. Here's one that I use for my recovery needs on any of my 4x4's, playing with the cheap seldom used stuff that the 4x4 market pushes just don't cut it. I have never had any equipment failure, but have watched as others that I wheel with have there winch lines, straps, savers, etc, etc.

There's a lot more to than just throwing a winch on the front of your truck and then being able to winch with it, just as a simple example, most of you throw your winch on and then securing the line to the front and then winching it tight. This is not a good thing to do. Not only is it bad on the winch itself but can kink the cable creating a weak spot for failure. By just keeping the line too tight on the drum you can cause the line to fray in places you cannot see like the point where the hook is.

Believe it or not there is a lot of training involved with the proper use of a winch and the equipment involved that most weekend warriors just don't understand. A good example of the right way was demonstrated last year at Panamint Valley Days, I was really impressed and could tell there was a professional recovery expert involved.

http://www.awdirect.com/

I know people will argue this all day, but steal cable stretches!!  Steal has a elastic region, before it permanently deforms, that means it STRETCHES!  When it is stretched it wants to return it its original length.  That means it now has stored energy, when the energy is released (the line breaks) it accelerates through the air until something else stops it. Newtons law of action and reaction.  The force that is has will be equivalent to its mass x its acceleration. That means that the heavier it is, the more force it has.

This is all true for synthetic line as well, which stretches MUCH less, and some claim that it doesn't stretch at all.  That means less stored energy. When the line breaks it will have much less force because the line has less acceleration (because of less energy) and much less mass. Bottom line that means less damage.

I think the towing company's use steal because it is cheaper, and bottom line is, it gets the job done! I have winched with both steal and with synthetic, and I use a jacket/towel/what ever is handy to put over the line in both cases.


At the end of the day I prefer Synthetic because its much lighter, plus the benefits described above.

FWIW, this is my .02. I am an mechanical engineering student on the 8 year plan  (from working to much, not bad grades), and I am no physics major.

PZ

[Rocksurfer]

I don't think it is price in fact you will find that ANSI grade rated line will cost around the same as synthetic. Which brings me to the typical line synthetic or steel that is on most 4x4's, legally I could not pass inspection with a non ANSI rated line on my trucks. The stuff you buy at the 4x4 shop is pretty much junk.

Synthetic winch rope from a 4x4 shop:

3/8 x 100*

19'600# breakthrough strength

$279.00



Steel rope from a towing/recovery acessories company:

3/8 x 100*

2.5 Tons load capacity with swivel hook and latch

$223.00

The problem comes from longevity, the steel rope will far outlast the synthetic, in that way you would be correct on cost. A good steel rope will last up to 10 months to a year with proper care. A synthetic might last a week or two at best.

[Early]

Just some add in questions no knowledge so no answer.

Would winching with a strap be a different game than pulling with a strap. i would think that the "static load" of winching getting tighter and tighter  v. the "yanking" load on a strap (im not saying big neck breaking yanks, more like the in ability to keep a line tight 100% of the time (from my personal eyes)).

I ask because i always felt my strap suited my abilities and when i steped up to winches i would get some chain.

Also thanks rock surfer. Im looking at buying a "rebuilder" winch and spooling new line on it. i will definitely keep your thought in mind when choosing where i purchase.

edit: dang i read this thread before the OPs posted thread on my next tab. question answerted and again thx to rock

[Rocksurfer]

Get a 2 ply strap with around a 10,000 capacity allowing them to stretch is not a bad thing since it will aid in the pull strength created by it. No and I mean no steel hooks on the strap only use D-rings to secure it to the winch since if one or the other breaks it will  not allow it to become a flying object. Just remember that if it becomes discolored you should immediately remove it from service just like if you flat-spot a winch cable.

[Early]

ive got a nice strap, a tree saver (for others winches),  and a log pullin strap.

(rumor coming up) I have heard that a synthetic winch line will drop to the ground with no whip? hard to believe? anyone?

I have also tossed a blanket or jacket at least on top off straps or winches when im around. i thought everyone did too.

How much should my d-rings hold? i got them all from friends so i don't know the quality but im pretty sure they have a kg rating on them.

[88_Pathy]

I winch and snatch with my 30,000lb pro crap 3in strap.  Never had a problem, yet. I've pulled motorhomes, jeeps, toys, fullsizes, trees, stumps..... anything really.  I have not heard of a strap being no good to winch off of, I need insight I guess.

[Rocksurfer]

It is the main selling point of the synthetic lines, they too can whip though. The steel can whip to the left or right of the winch, usually in a broad motion, not like a bull whip. The possibility of that killing you is very remote. Now the pieces that combine to make the winch line can become projectiles and yes kill you like hooks and such which is why you would want to use attachments that secure to the line and the attachment point. That way if the line breaks it won't send the hook sailing. A good heavy tarp is generally the best thing to drape over both synthetic or steel rope.

I winch and snatch with my 30,000lb pro crap 3in strap.  Never had a problem, yet. I've pulled motorhomes, jeeps, toys, fullsizes, trees, stumps..... anything really.  I have not heard of a strap being no good to winch off of, I need insight I guess.

Last year when my 35' motorhome conked out going up Mule Canyon they tried to pull me with single ply Pro-crap style straps. 3 in all, I ended up owing my friends 3 straps. Finally someone showed up with a 2 ply and tugged me into camp.

[Rocksurfer]

These guys tried really hard to kill something with wire rope.....


http://mythbustersresults.com/episode62

[swapped89]

I saw that episode. Good show

[Phazertwo]

Another plus to synthetic is that its much harder to get a flat spot, or a kink.  Also, the break strength of the synthetic is higher than the break strength of wire rope of the same size.  Looks like its up to 45% stronger.  I am assuming that is going against regular winch rope, and not the stuff that Rocksurfer is talking about, from a towing company.  The 2.5 tons that he quoted for the wire rope is a "safe working load" where as the synthetic that he quoted was "breaking strength" so you can't really compare them. (since 2.5 tons is 5,000lbs, and most winches used in the off-road industry are around 8,000lbs winches.)

interesting write up on synthetic rope, and why it normally breaks.
http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/winchline/winchline-6.htm

I am all about synthetic. It can pull more weight, while weighing MUCH less than wire rope. It will not whip as much as wire rope, it is MUCH harder to kink, and "flat spot" and in my opinion last much longer.  my friend and I had to replace the wire rope on his truck every other season because it would get flat spots/kinks/splintery.  My other friend has synthetic on his, and its been on his truck for 7 years, and still looks great. (keep in mind that each winch sees about 10-15 pulls a year)  If you are worried about the rope getting sun damage (and weakening it) than you can always get a drum cover.  Having handled both steel cable, and synthetic on the trail, synthetic wins hands down. Much easier to run around with, if you are trying to get things done quick (which is the case for me, most of the time to prevent a roll).

Also, they make extensions out of synthetic, so if you need a longer winch rope, just get one of those, instead of using a strap. That way everything in the system stretches the same amount.

PZ

[Volcom]

I like the idea of synthetic and have several buddies have that upgraded to it.  I do like handling it better than steel wire.  The only major downside is the abrasion on the rocks.  You have to be super careful while using this stuff.  You have to use a winch line abrasion sleeve.  We also carry spare scraps of carpet to put under the synthetic line if it's going to rub against the rocks.

I might look into getting a synthetic extension for now until I can upgrade to full synthetic.

[Dingman.]

Here is something i felt was a good read, just about recovery in general.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Recovery/index.html

[Phazertwo]

that is an excellent read!

[Dingman.]

Yea i think everyone should read it..

I had it in my sig for the longest time, i don't know why it isn't there anymore

[Rocksurfer]

Another plus to synthetic is that its much harder to get a flat spot, or a kink.  Also, the break strength of the synthetic is higher than the break strength of wire rope of the same size.  Looks like its up to 45% stronger.  I am assuming that is going against regular winch rope, and not the stuff that Rocksurfer is talking about, from a towing company.  The 2.5 tons that he quoted for the wire rope is a "safe working load" where as the synthetic that he quoted was "breaking strength" so you can't really compare them. (since 2.5 tons is 5,000lbs, and most winches used in the off-road industry are around 8,000lbs winches.)

Pretty much what I was saying when I said they stuff you get from a 4x4 shop is junk. The wire rope you get with that winch is poop.

I am all about synthetic. It can pull more weight, while weighing MUCH less than wire rope.

Can't argue with that and the line I'm talking about is even heavier that that crap they give you.

MUCH harder to kink, and "flat spot" and in my opinion last much longer.  my friend and I had to replace the wire rope on his truck every other season because it would get flat spots/kinks/splintery.

Again it is the type of wire rope, my rope rarely flatspots or kinks, and as long as the driver knows what he's doing and watches the winch as it is spooled in it will not ever have an issue.

My other friend has synthetic on his, and its been on his truck for 7 years, and still looks great. (keep in mind that each winch sees about 10-15 pulls a year)

10 to 15 is almost daily on my trucks, most of it is not winching over big rocks and such but being a police garage half of those have no wheels and must be dragged.

It is two different worlds in the winching business, so you'd be on the right track with the ease of use and weight it is a lot lighter on the front of a 4x4 to have synthetic line. In the towing industry the constant exsposure to fuels and fluids would distroy one.

The one thing with wire rope is that if one did fail during use be it the clasp or union I can fix it on the spot with 3 u-clamps. You cannot do that with synthetic it just won't hold once it breaks. Crap when I first started towing most used that system as the norm, they didn't fuse it in the lead like they do now. 3 opposing clamps were all that used to hold the cable together and picked your car up on the sling for towing. Scares the crap out of me to think of that but it is what they used to do.