Topic: Did synthetic kill my rebuilt engine?

[Zoomschwortz]

About 20 months ago, I bought an 89 Toy with a dead engine. I usually rebuild my own engines but since time was limited I bit the bullet and bought a rebuilt engine.

At about 18,000 miles the cam was going flat and I removed the head to take a peak inside and found that there was no cross hatch on the thrust sides of the cylinder walls so I decided to pull the engine and check the bottom end. I found that the mains and rod bearings and journals were shot with #1 rod down to copper. It looked like a lot of crud went through the engine.

The nice thing about rebuilding my own engines is I know what has gone into the engine, how clean it is and how well everything fits.

I fired the engine up with regular 10-40 as instructed and changed the oil after 30 minutes to regular 10-30, as instructed.

I changed the oil again at 100 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles (just to make sure everything was clean) and at 2000 miles switched to Mobil 1 synthetic 10-30 which was changed every 5000 miles.

In the case of this rebuilt engine, I don't know how well it was cleaned, but assuming they did a good job at cleaning, could the synthetic oil have done such a good job at cleaning that it dislodged crud in the oil passages that would have stayed there had I continued with dead dinosaurs?

I have always had good luck with synthetic oil. I first started using it in the late 70's when I used Eon which later changed to Neo that is still sold by Northwest off road and others. I have also had good luck with Amsoil and became a real believer when my friends off road race car broke the oil pump with about 5 miles left in the race. He was in first place and didn't let up (hoping the sensor went bad) and won the race, shutting it off as he passed the finish line. When we pulled the engine apart, it looked like it had just been put together with the exception of the shot oil pump.

I will spend a lot of time cleaning this block and it's oil passages but I will always be wondering if the synthetic is dislodging anything I couldn't get too.

Although, maybe the problem was just something as simple as the shop not removing the plugs in the crank when the cleaned it and leaving crud in it.

What do you think, bad job of cleaning or synthetic breaking stuff loose that normally would have stayed lodged in the engine?

On the bright side, when the machine shop gets finished boring and align honing my block (going on 3 weeks now) It will have all brand new parts ie. crank, rods, pistons, cam, Toyota rockers, 1 mm larger valves, ported head, LCE header, T.B, crank scraper etc. going into it.

Take care
Ken

[fordh8r]

At about 18,000 miles the cam was going flat. I found that the mains and rod bearings and journals were shot with #1 rod down to copper. It looked like a lot of crud went through the engine.

I fired the engine up with regular 10-40 as instructed and changed the oil after 30 minutes to regular 10-30, as instructed.

I changed the oil again at 100 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles (just to make sure everything was clean) and at 2000 miles switched to Mobil 1 synthetic 10-30 which was changed every 5000 miles.

I will spend a lot of time cleaning this block and it's oil passages but I will always be wondering if the synthetic is dislodging anything I couldn't get too. Although, maybe the problem was just something as simple as the shop not removing the plugs in the crank when the cleaned it and leaving crud in it.

What do you think, bad job of cleaning or synthetic breaking stuff loose that normally would have stayed lodged in the engine?

The fact that the cam went flat may acount for the debris that caused the accelerated wear and not necessarily just housekeeping issues with the builder. Cause for cam flattening? Either improper break in procedure or low grade materials in cam. Since it sounds like you're no stranger to this stuff I'll guess the latter.

since the instructions were clear on running it for 30 mins and changing the oil afterwards do it  . But why all the oil changes in between?  Every engine I've built gets run for a 1000 miles before it's first oil change. remember the first thing in line with the oil system is the filter. Large debris is either caught on the oil pump screen or in the filter. It's all the fine debris gets past the filter that does the damage. if it gets past the filter once it contine to make it past which is why a partially coagulated filter will work better than a fresh filter  . With a new engine slight amounts of debris are acceptable for break in since they aid in seating all your new components.

No doubt the builder could be at fault for the problem you had. As for synthetic causing anymore debris to wash loose, I kinda doubt it since synthetics share a lot of the same additives that petroleum based oils have such as detergents and anti-foaming agents and acid reducers to name a few.

Sounds like like you got it handled with the rebuild.  Sorry to hear it was so soon since your last install. Good luck with the new engine.

[79coyotefrg]

   you run for 30 minutes  with 10w40  then changed to 10w30    WHY  are you in canada ?? 

i have  rebuilt  a dozen or more  of these engines (20-22R) and the ones  that failed  befor 5000 miles had  10w40  in them

i will run  them  for  30 minutes  then drive  to town and back  lightly,  no revs  over 2500  then come home  change the oil  to 20w50   and then change  every 3000,   or  when the oil turns black

but  we have 110* heat  thru the summer here  so 

[79coyotefrg]

if anything killed this engine  it  was the first 2000 miles  on 10w30

 

[brainlessfool]

not the 710. 

[Willy Mammoth]

Synthetic is a great cleaner. It causes all kinds of problems with refrigeration units too.

If there was anything coating the inside of the engine it would have been cleaned off and run through the system. If the filter got plugged early it would bypass all that junk through the engine.

I would guess that it was not all that clean to begin with and using synthetic signed it's death certificate.

If you get it good and clean go ahead and use synthetic, but I don't like it so much. Remmember it is good for starting crankcase fires too.

[brainlessfool]

Synthetic is a great cleaner. It causes all kinds of problems with refrigeration units too.

If there was anything coating the inside of the engine it would have been cleaned off and run through the system. If the filter got plugged early it would bypass all that junk through the engine.

I would guess that it was not all that clean to begin with and using synthetic signed it's death certificate.

If you get it good and clean go ahead and use synthetic, but I don't like it so much. Remmember it is good for starting crankcase fires too.

All very true, butt if the eng. had been cleaned proberly that MAY not have happened.

bottom line don't by rebluit engs, bluid your own.

[Redeyejedi]

i have been using mobil 1 for a couple years now in my 94 3.0L.....i THOUGHT i had a smoother sounding, easier reving engine after switching to synthetic, but......was it just wishful thinkning? should i revert back to "dead dino's"? i am no auto-tech by any means, but i am not clueless either . i think i could do a rebuild with time, right tools and this hur board (and pirate)......
so, should i go back to regular oil, or stick with mobil1 synthetic oil?
thanks.

[Willy Mammoth]

Dead Dino's will leave a film behind and coat the engine.

If you have been using synthetic long enough there is no more film or dirt left in your engine to cause any problems at this point. I would continue to use it.

I would recommend that if you want to use synthetic you start early in the engines life to avoid this type of problem.

Same it true for automatic transmissions, don't switch unless the trans is not that old or you are asking for problems.

Been there and done that.

[BUBBA]

well first you said you bought it rebuilt. Who rebuilt it (im guessing Jasper).Or did you buy from an individual.


Do you know for a fact it was rebuilt and not just cleaned up to look rebuilt.

What kind of oil filter are you using.Be sure you are using a filter with the anti-flowback valve.If not every time you start your engine your killing it because the cam isn't getting any oil.And since toyota's don't have cam bearings your talking steel on aluminum grinding,and that ain't good.

[Zoomschwortz [OP]]

"since the instructions were clear on running it for 30 mins and changing the oil afterwards do it  . But why all the oil changes in between?   Every engine I've built gets run for a 1000 miles before it's first oil change. remember the first thing in line with the oil system is the filter. Large debris is either caught on the oil pump screen or in the filter. It's all the fine debris gets past the filter that does the damage. if it gets past the filter once it contine to make it past which is why a partially coagulated filter will work better than a fresh filter  . With a new engine slight amounts of debris are acceptable for break in since they aid in seating all your new components."

"you run for 30 minutes  with 10w40  then changed to 10w30    WHY  are you in canada ?? 

i have  rebuilt  a dozen or more  of these engines (20-22R) and the ones  that failed  befor 5000 miles had  10w40  in them"


"if anything killed this engine  it  was the first 2000 miles  on 10w30"

I thought it was strange to start with 10w40 and then switch to 10w30, but that is what the rebuilder said he wanted done with the engine. As far as changing the oil so often, oil is cheap and I try to make sure I can get anything that may be floating around in the engine, out.

Very good point on the coagulated filter. I did change the filter with each oil change. I used one of the upper end Fram filters.

I am not a fan of 10w40 and felt uneasy about 10w30, but this is what the rebuilder called for and I had no idea what bearing and piston clearances they were running. I have always been a fan of 20w50.


Synthetic oil is a very good cleaner. If you put it in an engine that has been run on conventional oil, it will turn black very fast as it cleans out the old oil deposits.

I have also seen where people switched early or started with synthetic in a new engine and the rings never seated, so on a street engine, I like to get a few miles on it before switching over.

What oil do you run in your engines?

Thank you for all of your replies.
Ken

[BUBBA]

"if anything killed this engine  it  was the first 2000 miles  on 10w30" [/b]

II did change the filter with each oil change. I used one of the upper end Fram filters.

Well there is your problem.10w30 and a fram filter.
Basically your cam got ate up and then destroyed the bearings.

DO NOT USE FRAM FILTERS,use an OEM filter.

[fordh8r]

In regards to oil viscocities, part of the reason for all the different weights of oil is simply for climate and wear issues. Why would you use 20w-50 in a new engine  ? Remember, heavier oils have more difficulty flowing through smaller and tighter clearance areas (I.E. new or rebuilt engines) which may result as higher oil pressure readings but could actually be lacking lubrication since it is the resistance to flow that creates the oil pressure reading  . Heck for that matter the NASCAR boys run about 10 PSI per 1000 rpm's  . too high of oil pressure is actually not good since it can wash out bearing surfaces and has even been known to cause a bearing to spin in its bore. Even my new Chevy Tahoe calls for 10w-30 from the factory. Even new Hondas run 5w-30  . I run 10w-40 in my carbed 22R right now and I'm using a TG8 Fram filter which is the larger Ford filter. (the only Ford related part on my truck BTW  ) I do use 20w-50 in my chevy truck which has well over 200k on the engine and it runs great. It's OK to switch to heavier weight oils as the engine wears and gets older or if you change climatic regions for use.  Get over the "heavier is better" idea cause it's not doing your engine any favors. Also proper cam break-in procedures are super important when you run an engine for the first time. About 2000-2500 rpm for about 15-20 minutes the first time you fire it up (upon verification of oil pressure of course) should do the trick. This procedure will surface harden the cam lobes to prevent flattening in the near future. Hope this helps! 

[Zoomschwortz [OP]]

I run 10w-40 in my carbed 22R right now and I'm using a TG8 Fram filter which is the larger Ford filter. (the only Ford related part on my truck BTW  ) .

Assuming that the TG8 is the same size as the PH8, it is too large to be a direct replacement. Do you run a remote filter or is there an adapter available for our engines? In the past, I have run remote ph8 filters on some of my engines. I also used to run a longer ph8 filter that (if I remember correctly,) held 2 quarts of oil. It was a fast easy way to add 1-4 quarts of extra oil to an engine.


Well there is your problem.10w30 and a fram filter.
Basically your cam got ate up and then destroyed the bearings.

DO NOT USE FRAM FILTERS,use an OEM filter.

I believe that all OEM filters are made by outside companies. The trick is in finding who makes which filter for which company and are they still making it for them. I know that Wix and AC delco make filters for some car companies.

The filters I used were anti-flow back filters, but it is hard to find specifications on how many microns they will filter out.

As far as the 10w30 goes, alot depends on engine clearances and I didn't know how tight or loose everything was in this engine. I have found that 10w30 seems to hold up longer than 10w40. 10w40 seems breakdown and get thinner, sooner, than 10w30. On the other hand, my experience with 20w50 has been good and it seems to hold up well from oil change to oil change.

I have read that some people run Delo 15w40 in their gas powered trucks. Anybody have experience with Delo?

Thanks again.
Ken

[jimbo74]

delo 400 is good stuff... yup even the diesel oil..... its actually approved for both gas and diesel standards

i run whatever is cheapest, usually castrol gtx, delo 400, or shell rotella -- the delo and shell are the diesel ones, 15-40

fram filters suck!

i run the oversized huge ford on my 22r, the fl1a, never had a problem.. the fords are made by champion labs and are good filters

wix/dana, napa are also awesome filters as well

[fordh8r]

Assuming that the TG8 is the same size as the PH8, it is too large to be a direct replacement. Do you run a remote filter or is there an adapter available for our engines?

TG8 is Fram's 'tough gaurd' series and is dimensionally the same as the PH8 and does not require any adaptation to install. Napa would be a #1515, or Wix would be #51515. It screws right on with no problems at all unless it interferes with the intake manifold brace on an EFI engine  . As far as quality of filters goes, until I have a problem then I'll run what fits and works  . I need more proof or something more logical than someone just saying ''don't use them'' before I take heed to such advice. I also don't mean advertisement from a manufacturer. I'm talking physical evidence directly linked to a failure because of said products inferiority. So far I've got about 40k on the engine since I rebuilt it and it doesn't use any oil to speak of, all while using a Fram filter. I'm certainly not saying that Fram is the best or only choice out there. I'm just saying it's a practical choice. besides how many more miles will you get from a more expensive filter than with a Fram?  That to me would be conclusive evidence if you did a controlled test to prove such a case, no? 

[Zoomschwortz [OP]]

TG8 is Fram's 'tough gaurd' series and is dimensionally the same as the PH8 and does not require any adaptation to install. Napa would be a #1515, or Wix would be #51515. It screws right on with no problems at all unless it interferes with the intake manifold brace on an EFI engine  . As far as quality of filters goes, until I have a problem then I'll run what fits and works  . I need more proof or something more logical than someone just saying ''don't use them'' before I take heed to such advice. I also don't mean advertisement from a manufacturer. I'm talking physical evidence directly linked to a failure because of said products inferiority. So far I've got about 40k on the engine since I rebuilt it and it doesn't use any oil to speak of, all while using a Fram filter. I'm certainly not saying that Fram is the best or only choice out there. I'm just saying it's a practical choice. besides how many more miles will you get from a more expensive filter than with a Fram?  That to me would be conclusive evidence if you did a controlled test to prove such a case, no? 

It has been a while since I had a PH8 in my hands. I thought they were wider than the filter for our Toyota.
Thanks for the info. I will be switching over to the PH8 size for my 22RE.

As far as Fram filters go, I have read that the lower end of their line doesn't have very much filter material but the upper end of the line has more filter material and anti flowback.

Thanks again
Ken

[weirdtimes_7]

When i bought my truck, it had been run it's whole life with dino blood.... I recently turned it over to synthetic oil because that's what i have run in all my vehicals. Ever since i have changed her over, it has run better, and actually had better throttle response.

What does everyone think of K&N oil filters??? I have been running them in my truck for a while now and like the performance of em....

military_stang

[kneedownnate]

I like the k&n oil filters cause they're huge, but don't like the $10-11 price tag   I'll run almost anything in a pinch, as long as it's not a fram.

[weirdtimes_7]

I need to look at my K&N, but do they come with the anti-flowback feature???

military_stang

[fordh8r]

It has been a while since I had a PH8 in my hands. I thought they were wider than the filter for our Toyota.
Thanks for the info. I will be switching over to the PH8 size for my 22RE.

As far as Fram filters go, I have read that the lower end of their line doesn't have very much filter material but the upper end of the line has more filter material and anti flowback.

Thanks again
Ken

Yes and Yes.   The PH8 and TG8 are wider than the toyota filter but the sealing and screw dimensions are the same.   The TG8 does have a anti-flow back valve and quite possibly does have improved filter media since,   if I remember correctly, it was heavier in weight than the PH8. You can double check that if you'd like or maybe look up the specs between the two filters. If anyone wanted to make the argument then the only way to do that is to check the micron filtering of the filter medias between brands and prove that the passing debris in the micron size allowed to pass is the damaging size of debris. The are multiple factors that would vary that determination such as bearing manufacturers, oil brands, crank materials, varied hardness between like engines, advance in engine wear and so on   . Aside from all this filter talk, I just have to say that I would emphasize more on the importance of the quality of parts in the rebuild than the filter and oil used since the materials in the engine are what have to stay together. Lesser quality parts won't last no matter how you care for them. better quality parts will last much longer even with a limited amount of neglect only adding truth to the old addage ''you get what you pay for''   . Again, I say stick with a prodct you believe in for the sake of your own peace of mind until something better comes along. Either way, enjoy the fruits of your labor and have a good time in the interim.  

[RN37DD]

what do you think about this.. i just got my block back from the machine shop after it was bored, decked , checked and all oil passages cleaned. brought it home removed the plugs from the mail oil gallery and ... a whole bunch of dirt, grime, rust and you name it. yeah i know it was flushed but it looks like you got to remove those plugs and check every time. It's good now but i had to manually clean it and reinstall the plugs.. from the oil gallery its a straight shot to the bearings.

[weirdtimes_7]

what do you think about this.. i just got my block back from the machine shop after it was bored, decked , checked and all oil passages cleaned. brought it home removed the plugs from the mail oil gallery and ... a whole bunch of dirt, grime, rust and you name it. yeah i know it was flushed but it looks like you got to remove those plugs and check every time. It's good now but i had to manually clean it and reinstall the plugs.. from the oil gallery its a straight shot to the bearings.

I'm sorry, but i would have been pissed if i just got my newly redone engine and that crap happens.... thats crap. Good thing you caught it in time before running that beast...

military_stang

[*ROKTOY*]

what do you think about this.. i just got my block back from the machine shop after it was bored, decked , checked and all oil passages cleaned. brought it home removed the plugs from the mail oil gallery and ... a whole bunch of dirt, grime, rust and you name it. yeah i know it was flushed but it looks like you got to remove those plugs and check every time. It's good now but i had to manually clean it and reinstall the plugs.. from the oil gallery its a straight shot to the bearings.

When you send your block to the machine shop you should remove all the plugs, oil and coolant. When all the work is complete you should bring it home and wash it with hot water and a good decreasing soap like castrol super clean. You should also have a good set of engine cleaning brushes and run them through all the oil passages, not just the block but the crank and head if any work was done to them. Then blow dry and coat with a rust preservative if not going to assemble right away. The reason you do this is obvious, all that cutting and grinding done in the machining process leaves debris. The machine shop does not clean the parts after their work, at least not very well. If you think because you had it hot tanked it will be clean think again they hot tank before they start the work.

[weirdtimes_7]

But arn't they responsable for all the work they do??? Especially when it comes to all the debris??

military_stang

[RN37DD]

I asked them to clean the block after the work was done because i was bringing it home to assemble. and i was told the oil passage plugs were removed and cleaned.  thats why i thought it was done. who knows maybe they forgot. still charged me for it though. The main thing is that freaky things can happen durring a rebuild.. no matter how good the parts, oil or filter. If your rebuilding or buying a rebuild theres a few things to ponder. I double check my own work. I might even pull the pan and try primimg it to check for good flow before putting it in the rig.. or just fire it up once i finish the head.

[84pickup]

when i got my truck about 2 years ago it was running 10w-40 castrol in colorado. i changed it to 10w-30 mobil1 and it's run great with no problems. i have used fram, mobil1, and amsoil on my 84 22R and it's done great. although the fram did do really crappy so i can also testify to it's crappyness. just recently i started to use amsoil synthetic and it seems to be doing pretty good too. i also use amsoil synthetic gear lube and that does great too.

[*ROKTOY*]

I asked them to clean the block after the work was done because i was bringing it home to assemble. and i was told the oil passage plugs were removed and cleaned.  thats why i thought it was done. who knows maybe they forgot. still charged me for it though. The main thing is that freaky things can happen durring a rebuild.. no matter how good the parts, oil or filter. If your rebuilding or buying a rebuild theres a few things to ponder. I double check my own work. I might even pull the pan and try primimg it to check for good flow before putting it in the rig.. or just fire it up once i finish the head.

Just goes to show ya, do a good  cleaning yourself and you will never have any regrets. You should always prime your oil system before startup on a new engine.

[*ROKTOY*]

But arn't they responsable for all the work they do??? Especially when it comes to all the debris??

military_stang

Think it would be hard to prove, as they would accuse the builder of poor workmanship, because insuring cleanliness is his responsibility upon assembly.

[RN37DD]

ok so lets say I'm going to prelube before stating it up. I have no preube pump. and i guess i could use an oil can and pump it up on the oil pump side so it gose through the filter first. any idea's???