Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[Gnarly4X]

I have a question...

What is the value of the head I took off my 22RE that may be warped due me overheating the engine?  I don't know what cam is in it until I mic it to try to figure it out.  There's no markings on it the cam.  It looks good.  There are several exhaust studs that have been heli-coiled while it was in the truck. 

I have no idea how much it would cost to have it rebuilt?  I can take it to a Phoenix head shop and see what they say.  I don't know what I'd do with it, but maybe sell it or keep it as a backup head, or do some heavy duty mods to it, like port and polish??

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[OTO Phil]

You might be able to deck it then port and polish it.. them it might be worth it

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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

You might be able to deck it then port and polish it.. them it might be worth it

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OK, I'll clean it up and oil it good and keep it for now and then later consider what ever comments I get.  I'll find out what condition it is in.

Thank you.

Gnarls.

[OTO Phil]

Instead of oiling it, just put it in a garbage bag coated in WD-40

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[BoG-ToY]

Full long block rebuild buy Tod (ENGNBLDR). Only original parts are the block, rods, crank and head
Stainless pistons
Chrome moly rings

Where did you get stainless piston? Did that decrease your redline? Increase engine knock issues due to reduced thermal efficiency than aluminum?

[OTO Phil]

Where did you get stainless piston? Did that decrease your redline? Increase engine knock issues due to reduced thermal efficiency than aluminum?

That is way too advanced for me to know the answer right now. I'll head over to Tod's shop tomorrow and ask
👊😎

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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

That is way too advanced for me to know the answer right now. I'll head over to Tod's shop tomorrow and ask


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I think the pistons that engbldr is selling are just hypereutectic type (aluminum alloy).  Although out of the box they look like stainless steel. 

Gnarls.

[BoG-ToY]

I figure Tod put his awesome stainless steel valves in there. But never seen any stainless steel Pistons. Decades ago you may have seen some cast iron pistons.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Mercedes introduced steel pistons a couple years ago.  I don't know if they are "stainless steel"?

http://newatlas.com/mercedes-steel-pistons/33415/

Gnarls.

[OTO Phil]

Oh! You know what, my bad guys.. stainless valves.. haha..
I've gotta start getting some more sleep, didn't even catch that

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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Oh! You know what, my bad guys.. stainless valves.. haha..
I've gotta start getting some more sleep, didn't even catch that

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I knew what you meant. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  August 8, 2016

Rebuilding a 1986 XtraCab 22RE with unknown actual mileage, but judging from the incredibly overall good condition of this California truck when I bought it in 2006 from a second owner, the odometer mileage *could be* accurate and this engine could be 30 years old.  It now reads 133,814.

For those who may not be expert engine builders or just curious….. Thoughts and things I’ve learned about my rebuild so far, in no specific order.

I started this rebuild with specific target design goals and planned on not having to rebuild this engine in my life time.

** Do It Yourself vs ?? - I’m very happy I decided to do it myself.  I visited two engine rebuilders, and spoke to 4 engine machine shops.  I realize now that there is no way the rebuild shops would have done the job correctly, to my standard. They most likely would not have taken the time to replace defective parts, like the 3 parts that were rusted through. One that I had fabricate a replacement.

**Inspection Prior to Purchase – I should have spent more time inspecting ALL the parts on the engine to determine what needs to be replaced and what can be reused.

**Buying a Long Block or Short Block – After many hours of research on multiple Toyota parts sources and reviews that were posted, reading lots of posts on 3 or 4 Toyota forums, the risk of buying a bad long block was not worth it.  Buying a very expensive long block from more reputable sources was beyond my budget.

** New vs Rebuilt head – A local head shop quoted $410 for a bolt-on rebuilt head with good used parts, including a cam.  Engbldr’s new 22 head with 261C cam and their over-size valves installed was $550.  The choice for me was a no-brainer.

**  Final cost - I underestimated the cost. – should have added another $1,000 to my rebuild kitty before I started.

**  Machine shop turnaround - I under estimated the run-around time and number or trips to the machine shop. It was about 3 weeks from drop off to pick up of my engine block, crank, rods, timing cover, and pistons.

**  Blue printing – I should have spent MORE time thinking through what modifications are worth (cost and time) to increase power (torque), like boring the block to .060” instead of just .020” to clean it up, cam profile, header & exhaust, over-sized valves, balancing, etc.

**  Machine Shop - Choosing the best machine shop for the job is really important.  I spent and extra $75 to have the machine shop check and prep the block with main bearings, rod bearings, rod bushings to tolerance specs.  I didn’t want to plasti-gauge. I did mic everything to verify they were within factory spec.

**  Block plugs and locating dowels - I should have removed all 4 block plugs before dropping off the block at the machine shop, and ordered new hex plugs.  I should have removed the two head locating dowels on the block deck.

**  Block and head prep - Decking the block beyond about .010” in combination with resurfacing the head will cause issues with cam timing, heat, and compression ratio.  Research this issue extremely well.  Tod at engbldr was incredibly helpful in sharing his expertise and recommendations.

** Cleaning, prep & painting – I’m glad I cleaned the heck out of everything.  I used paint thinner and acetone.  I took the time to paint almost every part that needed paint.  I should have picked a lighter color for the block.

** Photos & Parts storage -  I should have taken more photos and videos before, during, and after disassembly and removing the engine, to have a better record of where parts, nuts & bolts are located (my pornographic memory is not as sharp as it was at 42 years of age!).  I labeled with masking tape little paper and plastic cups all the nuts & bolts as I remove them.  That was BIG help when it came time to start putting parts back together.  When in doubt I measured the depth of each bolt hole with a little screwdriver and piece of cloth hanger to make sure the bolt was the right length.

** Doug Thorley vs LCE Headers? – there seems to be lots of opinions on this.  I have gone back and forth on which one to buy this time.  I’m now leaning back towards the DT header. I believe the tri-y design is better for my cam and OS valves and my target RPM for increased torque. The tri-y design supposedly is better for low to mid range torque and scavenging exhaust gases quicker.  I would love to see the results of these two headers attached to 2.25” exhaust, cat, and turbo type muffler, tested on a stock 22 on a SuperFlo 902 engine dyno!!

Gnarls.

[OTO Phil]

If i could do it again, i also would have had Tod go to .060 instead of .020 for a bit more cc..
Only other thing i wish i had gotten was LCE's oil scraper..

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[OTO Phil]

So i called a more reputable shop-English racing- and they said it's $150/hr. With a 1hr minimum.. they said I'll probably get about 3 pulls if everything goes smoothly.. another shop-fast specialties- said it'd be about $150 after tax for 2-3 pulls baseline dyno..

So.. yeah, anyone wanna pitch in $10? Hahaha...

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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

If i could do it again, i also would have had Tod go to .060 instead of .020 for a bit more cc..
Only other thing i wish i had gotten was LCE's oil scraper..

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I did more research on going to .060" over bore instead of only needing to go .020" over.   I confirmed that I might gain 2 to 4 HP and some torque that was inidicated by my dyno software, BUT -  the trade off is the block cannot be bored again without major modifications and cost.  The cost of .060" over pistons is a little more $$.

So... it's not really recommended unless necessary to clean the bore.  It is a judgment call. 

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

UPDATE:  August 8, 2016

................

What stocks should I buy Monday morning to get a HUGE profit by the end of the day ? ? ? ?

 

[OTO Phil]

Haha same

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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

What stocks should I buy Monday morning to get a HUGE profit by the end of the day ? ? ? ?

 

engbldr stocks? 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

So i called a more reputable shop-English racing- and they said it's $150/hr. With a 1hr minimum.. they said I'll probably get about 3 pulls if everything goes smoothly.. another shop-fast specialties- said it'd be about $150 after tax for 2-3 pulls baseline dyno..

So.. yeah, anyone wanna pitch in $10? Hahaha...

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I'm in for $10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

If you can, I would really like to know what chassis dyno they have?

My wild-arse prediction is that you will see between 78 and 97 HP at the rear wheels?

Maybe 100 lbs of peak torque at around 3200 RPM???

But hoping for a tad more...

Ask if they report or adjust for ambient air temperature, relative humidity, and elevation?

Gnarls. 

[BoG-ToY]

I have a certificate in auto machine from a college that had student from across the country sent to this machine shop to learn auto machine.... Standard overbore should be kept to a minimum.
When you jump straight to .060 over on your first bore you risk that block being junk shortly after. Just got back from the junkyard where a fresh rebuilt engine was out there due to an injector failing. Was still repairable but the whole car was junked due to the secondary damage to turbo and head. As stated "going .060 might gain you 4hp but it can also weeken cylinder walls. The 3.0 Toyota is already thin enough to fail without being bored over. We did one .040 over and ended up finding a pinhole into the water jacket. A ring could crack, or who knows. On a side note...  A steel piston on a diesel makes sense as they see abuse (the story above with leaky injector was a TDI, piston was torch cut and deposited throughout the rest of the engine) but they also see much lower RPMs normally. 3800 is high
RPM for many diesels 4500-5000 is screaming

[OTO Phil]

Right on, I'll ask.. and bog toy, that's some good info.. although i remember Tod saying that he's bored up to .080 for one-off engines used for one race lol.. but those are strokers, and screamers

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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I have a certificate in auto machine from a college that had student from across the country sent to this machine shop to learn auto machine.... Standard overbore should be kept to a minimum.
When you jump straight to .060 over on your first bore you risk that block being junk shortly after. Just got back from the junkyard where a fresh rebuilt engine was out there due to an injector failing. Was still repairable but the whole car was junked due to the secondary damage to turbo and head. As stated "going .060 might gain you 4hp but it can also weeken cylinder walls. The 3.0 Toyota is already thin enough to fail without being bored over. We did one .040 over and ended up finding a pinhole into the water jacket. A ring could crack, or who knows. On a side note...  A steel piston on a diesel makes sense as they see abuse (the story above with leaky injector was a TDI, piston was torch cut and deposited throughout the rest of the engine) but they also see much lower RPMs normally. 3800 is high
RPM for many diesels 4500-5000 is screaming

Yes, the recommendations are to only bore to what is necessary. 

I believe 79coyotefrg has a 22R that he built about 14 years ago, and it's .060" over bore, and from what he has posted it's a cats-a$$-scream'n-machine!! 

It would be interesting to find out what the life is, or reliability of, a 22 that is bored over .020"?

I don't have a certificate in anything automotive... but I DO have a certificate in Dog Psychology!

Gnarls.

[BoG-ToY]

For sure. And that one race win,lose, or blow it up, the result is the result. Can't take it back. For most of us a second or third chance on a rebuild isn't a horrible thing and the difference in power isn't enough to justify for a daily driver.
I would do it if I had to have the power and didn't care if I could rebuild it again.

[Mudder]

Couple of things, do not bore an engine to .060 over unless you have to. Unless you like buying old blocks when it's time to rebuild, or if you're like me you get to spend almost 2k at LCE for their short block kit because no one where you live can machine in a timely manner (7-8 weeks just for a head decked). Secondly, it is completely okay to just use plastigage to check clearances. It is what the FSM tells you to do. You aren't building a hot rod motor that's putting out high horsepower!

[79coyotefrg]

I did more research on going to .060" over bore instead of only needing to go .020" over.   I confirmed that I might gain 2 to 4 HP and some torque that was inidicated by my dyno software, BUT -  the trade off is the block cannot be bored again without major modifications and cost.  The cost of .060" over pistons is a little more $$.

So... it's not really recommended unless necessary to clean the bore.  It is a judgment call. 

Gnarls.

they can "CAN" be bored to .080 LC sells the pistons but when those rings go you can probably just rering but when those miles are up its a boat anchor OR have sleeves pressed in. 
I wont do another over .040

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Couple of things, do not bore an engine to .060 over unless you have to. Unless you like buying old blocks when it's time to rebuild, or if you're like me you get to spend almost 2k at LCE for their short block kit because no one where you live can machine in a timely manner (7-8 weeks just for a head decked). Secondly, it is completely okay to just use plastigage to check clearances. It is what the FSM tells you to do. You aren't building a hot rod motor that's putting out high horsepower!

Hey Mudder,

Yeah... I think the consensus is.....don't bore a 22 block any more than you have to.  However, if you are blue printing an engine and are looking for incremental gains in power, over boring a 22 block to .060" would be a consideration.

On using Plastigauge... I had the machine shop mic all the tolerances because they had all my parts, they've been building race engines for 30 years, I didn't want to take the time to do it, I was anxious to get my block and parts back home, the last time I plastigauged an engine build was on a 455 Olds for my 1968 Chevy toy-hauler.  As far as bearing tolerances and properly mic'ing an engine build, it doesn't matter if it's on 22 or a $250,000 NASCAR engine, you'd better measure it correctly, and if the specs are in 10's of thousands of an inch.... correctly means not much room for error.

I'm a philologist   - not an engine builder.

Gnarls. 

[BoG-ToY]

And I've seen people mic out parts wrong. Most people do not use inside micrometers, they use dial bore gauges that are set to your desired size with a setting fixture or outside micrometer. Lots of room for human error.
Honestly the final measure of how all the parts combined fit together is probably a better way of measuring.
I worked at a performance machine shop that was the big name shop where I lived, you would not believe the crap that went on in there. I finally quit because I was taught to have more pride in my work. Now, the most expensive build I saw was $20k for removing rebuilding and reinstall of a pair of 350 Chevy engines in a cabin cruiser. They ran Keith black Pistons and stroked cranks with all sorts of other stuff. I was a machinist not assembly. I did not get to touch the Pistons, I was handed a spec sheet on what size to finish hone to. 3/4 of our builds saw torque plates when boring and honing.
Moral of this, pasti gauge make a great final check that everything was done right.
Don't alway just trust the name over the door, don't always trust what was told to you by the owner.
We had a rare block come through, it was rough, but had the owner of the shop not screwed up I think it would have been repairable. He downright load to the customer and told him it did not clean up when in reality it was the machine shop the screwed it up. Once again I left for good reason.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Hey excabswap,

If you have not already tested your truck on a dyno....

I may be asking a lot, but if at all possible, the following data would be very very helpful for me...

Immediately before testing record the following:

 - outside ambient air temperature
 - inside ambient air temperature in the dyno operating enviroment
 - relative humidity
 - barometric pressure
- your elevation
 - tire manufacturer
 - tire model
-  tire mileage
-  tire pressure
-  tire size
-  rim size

Chassis:
- Weight of truck if you have had it weighed (with you in the truck (your body weight) and how many gallons of fuel was in the tank)
- What gears were used during testing
- engine operating temperature
- how many pulls

 Chassis Dyno
- manufacturer, type, model
- Casually ask the dyno operator how long he/she has been operating that dyno.
 - Please record the day and time they test it.

Engine:
- last time/mileage the engine was tuned (cap, rotor, spark plugs, ignition timing, valve lash adjust, etc)
- specs (cam, bore, carb/injection, deck height, head, header, exhaust etc)
- length of time or miles on rebuild
- oil viscosity in crankcase
- gasoline octane rating

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Question:

While pulling the engine, I had to cut one of the water tubes attached to the underside other plenum. It's molded with curves. I can splice it with copper tubing and hose clamps, but I'd rather replace it.  Toyota dealer says some of those hoses have been discontinued. I will have to visit my dealership to find out.

Have any of you guys used aftermarket straight tubing? My concern is that the straight rubber tubing will kink trying to make the bends?

Any comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[OTO Phil]

We have 90* couplings at oreillys

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