Topic: Thinking about getting bigger cam??

[Plainview]

There's no reason for the program to allow you to enter LSA if you enter the ICL and ECL.

That's because LSA is simply (ICL + ECL) / 2.

Example:  A cam with 104 ICL and 108 LSA will always have an ECL of 112.  So a cam with an ICL of 106 and and ECL of 118 will have an LSA of 112.  That's just the way the math works out.

[Plainview]

This is good info. 

What I was referring to specifically in my last post was how to get the degree wheel bolted accurately to the crank snout.  Chances that the hole in my degree wheel exactly match the diameter of the crank bolt are very small.  If the hole in the degree wheel is bigger than the crank bolt then getting the wheel concentric to the crank snout centerline is nearly impossible without a bushing or something to fill the gap.  I doubt that Mr. Gasket degree wheel matches the 22R crank bolt diameter either, but they don't mention that in the video.  I had to make a bushing in order to use my Comp Cams degree wheel on my Pontiac. Will probably have to do the same thing for the Toyota 'R' series motor.

[emsvitil]

There's no reason for the program to allow you to enter LSA if you enter the ICL and ECL.

That's because LSA is simply (ICL + ECL) / 2.

Example:  A cam with 104 ICL and 108 LSA will always have an ECL of 112.  So a cam with an ICL of 106 and and ECL of 118 will have an LSA of 112.  That's just the way the math works out.

That's true,  but from being on a slant 6 site;  it's easier to think in terms of ICL and LSA (slant 225s like tight LSA and advance ICL).     Then let the program figure out the ECL.....

[H8PVMNT]

Some info on Jim's 272 grind and the variations available for Gnarly's spreadsheets:

"The 272 cam has 232 @.050 on the intake and the exhaust has 220 @.050. The lift is 430 at the valve . It can be ground on a 110, 112, 114 lobe separation. Intake center line is 105. We can also flip the profile around so the exhaust has the 232."

I just asked him to make me whatever variation would be best for a carbed truck with smaller tires and good gearing that I want to wind out a bit , idle quality and bottom end negligible.  Plan to use it in an engine I will make for my stock-ish 1980 pickup.

[Plainview]

That's true,  but from being on a slant 6 site;  it's easier to think in terms of ICL and LSA (slant 225s like tight LSA and advance ICL).     Then let the program figure out the ECL.....

Yeah, that's usually how I think about them too. The ECL will fall wherever - the important parameters for comparison are ICL and LSA.  Just pointing out that it's easy to calculate any of the lobe positions or LSA if you know two of the three numbers.  Cam spec sheets pretty much always give you all three.

[Plainview]

Some info on Jim's 272 grind and the variations available for Gnarly's spreadsheets:

"The 272 cam has 232 @.050 on the intake and the exhaust has 220 @.050. The lift is 430 at the valve . It can be ground on a 110, 112, 114 lobe separation. Intake center line is 105. We can also flip the profile around so the exhaust has the 232."

I just asked him to make me whatever variation would be best for a carbed truck with smaller tires and good gearing that I want to wind out a bit , idle quality and bottom end negligible.  Plan to use it in an engine I will make for my stock-ish 1980 pickup.

Another cam with more intake than exhaust duration.... Interesting.  That's usually done when the exhaust ports flow more than 80% of the intake port flow and there are headers and a free flowing exhaust involved.

[Gnarly4X]

Some info on Jim's 272 grind and the variations available for Gnarly's spreadsheets:

"The 272 cam has 232 @.050 on the intake and the exhaust has 220 @.050. The lift is 430 at the valve . It can be ground on a 110, 112, 114 lobe separation. Intake center line is 105. We can also flip the profile around so the exhaust has the 232."

I just asked him to make me whatever variation would be best for a carbed truck with smaller tires and good gearing that I want to wind out a bit , idle quality and bottom end negligible.  Plan to use it in an engine I will make for my stock-ish 1980 pickup.

Hmmm... those numbers don't seem to compute?

To have an LSA of 110 the ECL would have to be 115 if the ICL is 105?  That puts the cam timing advances 5 degrees?

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

You find it unusual for a cam to have advance ground into it?  Many (I'd even say 'most) cams do.  Look at the LCE grinds.

[Gnarly4X]

You find it unusual for a cam to have advance ground into it?  Many (I'd even say 'most) cams do.  Look at the LCE grinds.

No, I don't find advanced timing in cam profiles unusual, but I do find that ICL and ECL spread unusual.

Which LCE cams are your referring to that have advanced cam timing in the profile?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

You find it unusual for a cam to have advance ground into it?  Many (I'd even say 'most) cams do.  Look at the LCE grinds.

Hey Plainview,

I am a long way from any kind of camshaft expert, and I am not an engine builder.

For the past 15+ years I've looked at and tested in my software probably well over 100 different cam specs and profiles - 95% for the Toyota 20 and 22 engines.

LCE's "biggest" cam is their outlaw cam.  The specs appear pretty radical for a 22 and obviously designed for a seriously built race engine.  The cam has only a .8 degree of cam timing advance... that is point 8.  It does have a radical 27 degrees of overlap.... it will probably sound very loppy, and the engine probably would not idle below 1800 to 2000 RPMs.

I could be wrong and perhaps the data that Engine Analyzer is generating is off, but there are no camshaft profiles that  I've looked at so far for the Toyota 20/22s that show any degree of cam timing either retarded or advanced.. all are showing straight up zero.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey Plainview,

I went back and looked through my cam library.  I was wrong!  LCE does have a cam profile (Street Performer P/N 1022054) for the 20/22 that has an unusual Intake and Exhaust Centerline spec.   Intake 102 and Exhaust 119.5.  That makes the cam 8.8 degrees advanced cam timing.

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

There's more than one LCE profile with advance ground in. In fact, there are several.

[Gnarly4X]

There's more than one LCE profile with advance ground in. In fact, there are several.

OK, again, specifically which LCE cams for 20/22s have advanced degrees of cam timing in the profile?

What does advanced cam timing in a cam grind mean to you?

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

We should get more bottom end in traditional theory but it probably depends on all the other aspects of the cam profile.

[Plainview]

We should get more bottom end in traditional theory but it probably depends on all the other aspects of the cam profile.

Yep.  In general, that's the idea - more low end torque though sometimes it will increase torque output across the cam's usable RPM range.

Gnarly - plug a cam in to your dyno sim program straight up, then advance it 4 or 6 or 8 degrees and watch what happens.

Here's one LCE cam that has 8 degrees of advance ground in. Their website lists all the lobe position specs for their cams and there are several other grinds with varying amounts of advance ground in.

http://www.lceperformance.com/EFI-Pro-Camshaft-22RE-RET-p/1022021.htm

   Intake    Exhaust    
Valve Lash    .008    .012    
Valve Lift    .442    .442    
Advertised Duration    237°    240°    
Duration @ .050"    216°    219°    
Lobe Center    102°    119.5°    
Lobe Separation    110°       

Intake Opens    6° BTDC    
Intake Closes    30° ABDC    
Exhaust Opens    49° BBDC    
Exhaust Closes    -10° BTDC    

[Gnarly4X]

Yep.  In general, that's the idea - more low end torque though sometimes it will increase torque output across the cam's usable RPM range.

Gnarly - plug a cam in to your dyno sim program straight up, then advance it 4 or 6 or 8 degrees and watch what happens.

Here's one LCE cam that has 8 degrees of advance ground in. Their website lists all the lobe position specs for their cams and there are several other grinds with varying amounts of advance ground in.

http://www.lceperformance.com/EFI-Pro-Camshaft-22RE-RET-p/1022021.htm

Hey Plainview,

I'm not trying to be a butt-head with my questions, but really just curious about what published specs on a supplier's cam means to the average buyer.  And, then what cam timing does to the valve opening and closing events.

How did you determine the cam timing of the LCE cams with ground in advanced?  Where in their specs do they publish CAM TIMING?  Where in their published specs do you see OVERLAP DEGREES?

If you see the Lobe Separation Angle in the cam spec, will that tell you the Intake Centerline?

Geezzz…I’ve played with cam timing in the EA software a zillion times!

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

How did you determine the cam timing of the LCE cams with ground in advanced?  Where in their specs do they publish CAM TIMING?

Right Here:

Intake Opens    6° BTDC   
Intake Closes    30° ABDC   
Exhaust Opens    49° BBDC   
Exhaust Closes    -10° BTDC   

A cam calculator can figure out ICL,ECL,LSA, overlap from above

[H8PVMNT]

Hey butt-head, can you make a spread sheet from those 272 specs or do you need more/different data?   

[Plainview]

Hey Plainview,

I'm not trying to be a butt-head with my questions, but really just curious about what published specs on a supplier's cam means to the average buyer.  And, then what cam timing does to the valve opening and closing events.

How did you determine the cam timing of the LCE cams with ground in advanced?  Where in their specs do they publish CAM TIMING?  Where in their published specs do you see OVERLAP DEGREES?

If you see the Lobe Separation Angle in the cam spec, will that tell you the Intake Centerline?

Geezzz…I’ve played with cam timing in the EA software a zillion times!

Gnarls.

Forgive me, I assumed you knew the term "cam timing."  It's simply the lobe positions, the ICL and ECL since those numbers are referencing degrees of crank rotation or in other words how the cam is timed in relation to the crank.  Most manufacturers publish the lobe positions and many, like LCE, also publish the valve opening and closing events which could be calculated from duration and lobe centerlines anyway.

As for determining whether a cam has advance ground into it - When the ICL and ECL are the same (and they will equal the LSA when this happens), the cam is said to be ground "straight up" with no advance "ground in" to the design.  It appears this is the way Comp Cams grinds their cams for the 22R/E.  All the ones in their catalog have ICL=110, ECL=110 and the resulting LSA=110.   Again, remember that LSA is simply (ICL+ECL)/2. 

Now, let's say you have a cam where the ICL=106, the ECL=114 and thus the resultant LSA is still 110.  That cam would be said to have 4 degrees of advance "ground in" to it.  The lobes are in the same positions they'd be if it was ground straight up and you used an adjustable cam gear to advance it.

LCE has a grind with 8 degrees advance ground into it.  That's the most I've seen from any cam manufacturer for the engines I'm familiar with.  Most of their cams have less.

I don't pretend to know why that much advance is necessary, I can only assume they tested that cam and found that for the type of engine they expect/recommend it to be installed in it worked best.

Generally speaking, advancing a cam increases cylinder pressures at lower RPMs and thus tends to move the torque curve down in the RPM range.  Retarding does the opposite.

As to what these numbers mean to the "average" purchaser - I'd guess not much.  I think most people just choose a cam based on the recommendations of the supplier and maybe their friends/other hobbyists and they don't really worry about the numbers.

Those numbers are there for people like you and me who want to know more than the average person and have a solid base of knowledge on which to make meaningful comparisons.

[Gnarly4X]

Forgive me, I assumed you knew the term "cam timing." 

Hey Plainview…

    Thank you!  I had no flipp’n idea what cam timing is.

I clipped this from Crower’s website:  https://www.crower.com/camshafts.html?cat=1065

Can you please tell me what the ICL is for those “published” specs?

Part Number: 61809
Toyota Camshaft
Toyota - 22R
Performance level 5 - EFI - Stage 4 (Full Race) - Mostly strip, not for daily driver. Very rough idle, aftermarket valve springs, ECU mods required.
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: 236°/240° RR: 1.5/1.5Gross Lift: .443”/.417” LSA: 114° RPM: 3000 to 7500Redline: 8000

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Right Here:

Quote
Intake Opens    6° BTDC   
Intake Closes    30° ABDC   
Exhaust Opens    49° BBDC   
Exhaust Closes    -10° BTDC   

A cam calculator can figure out ICL,ECL,LSA, overlap from above

Correct!

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

No,  Only have LSA.    Need ICL to mathematically determine ECL.


Although you could set ICL to anything you wanted too............

[Gnarly4X]

No,  Only have LSA.    Need ICL to mathematically determine ECL.
Although you could set ICL to anything you wanted too............

BINGO!

Well... I kinda wanted Planview's "view".... but he's probably still drooling on his pillow about now?

So do we know what the ground in cam timing is for this cam?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Question:  If engbldr cams, Comp Cams, Schneider cams, Crane cams, Erson cams, and TRD cams all have NO advanced cam timing in their Toyota 20/22 profiles, what does LCE KNOW that they do not?

Would you care to speculate?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey butt-head, can you make a spread sheet from those 272 specs or do you need more/different data?   

OK "simpleton"... I will see what I can do. 

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Question:  If engbldr cams, Comp Cams, Schneider cams, Crane cams, Erson cams, and TRD cams all have NO advanced cam timing in their Toyota 20/22 profiles, what does LCE KNOW that they do not?

Would you care to speculate?

Gnarls.

It might help sell adjustable cam gears.

[Gnarly4X]

OK "simpleton"... I will see what I can do. 

Gnarls.

H8PVMNT,

OK, I just did a 1K to 5K on that Putney 272 cam based on your skinny specs.  I swapped the cam in a stock 22R.

The numbers are shockingly low. 

I'm going to re-run it in the engine specs I've been comparing the other cams with.

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

Hey Plainview…

    Thank you!  I had no flipp’n idea what cam timing is.

I clipped this from Crower’s website:  https://www.crower.com/camshafts.html?cat=1065

Can you please tell me what the ICL is for those “published” specs?

Part Number: 61809
Toyota Camshaft
Toyota - 22R
Performance level 5 - EFI - Stage 4 (Full Race) - Mostly strip, not for daily driver. Very rough idle, aftermarket valve springs, ECU mods required.
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: 236°/240° RR: 1.5/1.5Gross Lift: .443”/.417” LSA: 114° RPM: 3000 to 7500Redline: 8000

Gnarls.

Surely you know enough to know it can't be determined from just that info.  Why Crower chooses not to publish their lobe positions or opening/closing specs is something you'd have to ask them.  If I was considering one of their cams I'd ask before purchasing.

As for why LCE grinds advance into their cams while other manufacturers don't, that's a great question.  When it comes to a company like Comp, I'm always skeptical that they've taken the time over the years to actually test their cams.  I'm not a fan of off the shelf Comp grinds for Pontiacs because they're very generic and aren't really suited to making best power in those engines and it looks like they may have taken a similar approach with the 22R/E cams. LCE on the other hand has been doing Toyotas for years and years, I'd trust their expertise over Comp's any day.  But then there's TRD who you'd think would be the ultimate source of knowledge about these engines...

What does your simulator say?

[Plainview]

I'm stumped on how to find listings for TRD parts for these engines?  trdusa.com doesn't list anything for cars older than '95 so if I didn't hear it here I'd assume they don't offer anything for these old engines...

[Gnarly4X]

I'm stumped on how to find listings for TRD parts for these engines?  trdusa.com doesn't list anything for cars older than '95 so if I didn't hear it here I'd assume they don't offer anything for these old engines...

I added TRD because I have a library of their cams. I believe they stopped offering cams for the 22s some time back, I don't know when they stopped.

Gnarls.