Thinking about getting bigger cam??

[emsvitil]

Now we need an adjustable cam gear that can change the timing with the engine running...........

[emsvitil]

Gnarly,

With your spreadsheet, are the figures for the stock cam with stock specs, or the upgraded specs(overbore, compression, exhaust upgrades)?

If stock specs, how does the stock cam do with the upgraded specs?

[Gnarly4X]

Gnarly,

With your spreadsheet, are the figures for the stock cam with stock specs, or the upgraded specs(overbore, compression, exhaust upgrades)?

If stock specs, how does the stock cam do with the upgraded specs?

Hey emsvitil,

THAT is a great question.  That was the first comparison I did, but I neglected to add it to the sheet!     Thanks for catching that.

I added it at the top so you can see what a header and exhaust can do.  It is a very good profile.

I changed the file name on the Excel sheet, since this one is becoming a "Master" comparison document.

See attached Excel sheet.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Now we need an adjustable cam gear that can change the timing with the engine running...........

That will coming out in 2021.  It will be included in the new engine in the "Tacoma BlackJack"! 

Gnarls.

[Gillesdetrail]

Now we need an adjustable cam gear that can change the timing with the engine running...........

Isn't that is what CVVT is for (variable valve timing)? Like toyota with their vvt-i in the celica and 1jz, and Honda with the K-series coming out in 2001, where they use oil pressure to advance or retard the cams at the cam gear I believe.

[emsvitil]

Isn't that is what CVVT is for (variable valve timing)? Like toyota with their vvt-i in the celica and 1jz, and Honda with the K-series coming out in 2001, where they use oil pressure to advance or retard the cams at the cam gear I believe.

Yep,   but I want it on a 22R(E)..........

[Gillesdetrail]

Yeah, had my sarcasm radar turned off. I heard of a roller rocker conversion built for the 22r, that they only made like 5 or less, and that LCE got their hands on one as an artifact, could be false information. Anybody know anything about that?

As for a variable valve timing conversion, maybe you could ask HKS to engineer you something like they did on the rb26 :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDiPRoC78Q

[Gnarly4X]

Yep,   but I want it on a 22R(E)..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAO8OMg99qQ

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

What we need for the 22R is an aftermarket cylinder head.  The intake ports are terribly inefficient.  Heads are where you make power.  Efficient, high flowing, high velocity ports and a modern fast-burn chamber design.

Along with the efficient port/chamber design, a new timing chain design that would allow the use of the shorter deck heads on early 22R tall blocks.  You'd need custom flat-top pistons but if the heads were available then that would create the demand for the pistons, too.

[Gnarly4X]

What we need for the 22R is an aftermarket cylinder head.  The intake ports are terribly inefficient.  Heads are where you make power.  Efficient, high flowing, high velocity ports and a modern fast-burn chamber design.

Along with the efficient port/chamber design, a new timing chain design that would allow the use of the shorter deck heads on early 22R tall blocks.  You'd need custom flat-top pistons but if the heads were available then that would create the demand for the pistons, too.

I agree.  Most serious modifications or improvements are in the head.

22RE Performance and engbldr sell ported heads with over-sized valves.

It would be nice to see the flow bench data on the stock 22R/E head and the data after they did their thing.

Unfortunately, some company that would actually take the time and money to invest in manufacturing a newly redesigned a 22 head to sell to a very limited target audience is not likely.

Obviously a huge aftermarket target like owners of a Chevy V-8 is profitable.  The 22s where manufactured for only about 10 years. The Chevy small block V-8s have been manufactured for over 50 years.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Just horde every 20r head you can get your hands on.  After running both on the same block and carb I can say it is in fact a slight upgrade in stock form.  If you open things up and do some real port work I'm sure it would do even more.  You can shave them down for use on the later block it that floats your boat. 

Of course you are then committed to carb unless you get real creative, but then you can actually do things instead of staying inside the baby gate  .

[Plainview]

The 20R is definitely the better head.

One of my trucks is all stock except for an exhaust upgrade.  It has 30" tires.   The other truck has a 20R head, mild cam, Weber carb and 32" tires. Guess which truck totally kicks the other's ass?

Shaving down the 20R head to work on a later short deck (I think people call them "laser" blocks, right?) is intriguing.  I wonder how the compression ratio works out if you do that?  Of course, the 20R head doesn't have a good combustion chamber.  It needs the chamber from the later 22RE head.  Another opportunity for experimentation:  Shave a 20R head down to fit on the laser block and weld material into the combustion chamber to create a modern "heart" or fast-burn shape.

Really, how small is the Toyota market?  These old trucks still seem to be pretty popular.  I sure see a lot more of them on the road than old Pontiacs yet there are several aftermarket heads available for those old engines which haven't been produced since '78.  There is a brand-new 22RE stock casting available. Just imagine if instead of just making a copy of the original, whoever makes that head had taken the time to design a new intake port for it.

Marlin has a 9 week backlog on building transmissions.   I think I read that 22RE Performance has a pretty long backlog on building engines.  Don't know about engnbldr or any of the others, but if there's that much demand I'd think the market might be there. There's enough demand for heads that it's feasible for someone to make brand new copies of the stock casting.  It just takes someone willing to put in the time and money to get it done.

[Mudder]

The demand for the trucks are high but not for the 22re. Most people buy them for wheelers and those who DD them seem to swap motors.

[Gnarly4X]

The 20R head may flow a little better than a 22RE head, but it has some old age issues, like the older 22 blocks...porosity in the casting.  If you are wanting to run a 20R head you should definitely have it sonic tested, as well as that 30+ year old block that most of us are using to do our rebuilds, and that is not a guarantee you won't end up with pin holes.

Be careful to incorrectly correlate market demand with production output in manufacturing.  Keep in mind that  the bottom line is profit.  In a basic sales-driven business model, there are only 2 ways to increase profit... 1 – increase sales... .2 – lower costs.  The 22R/RE market is relatively small.  If we were to totally eliminate the few niche market suppliers for the custom performance products, all the demand in the world would mean nothing.

For this small market suppliers, increasing sales has limited growth.  Decreasing costs of running their business is probably not a practical option.  R&D investment can be very dicey for a small business, and ROI can stretch out too far.

22RE Performance makes an excellent ported head, OS valves and custom ground cam that will flow 200+ cfm.  A high performance carburetor intake manifold for a built 22R to compliment their high flow head would push potential HP up to a 150+.  As we know, flow starts with the carb, then intake manifold, head and valves, and then out the high flow bad-a$$ scavenging exhaust system.

As I mentioned, if I could go back in time about a year, I'd rethink my project and most likely build a 22R.

That's just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Gnarly,

Could you post the specs for all the cams?

Or put it as sheet2 in the spreadsheet



thanks

[Gnarly4X]

Gnarly,

Could you post the specs for all the cams?

Or put it as sheet2 in the spreadsheet



thanks

Hey emsvitil,

That's probably not a bad idea.  I have thought about doing that a number of times, and wish I had more than once, just to document any changes by the cam manufacturers, and make comparisons easier. That data and those specs are usually readily available online - posted by the suppliers, or by a buyer who posts a copy of the cam spec sheet.

It will take me a little time to compose an Excel sheet.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I did some trading with 22RE Performance for a cam.  I was either going to get the 272 carb (not to crazy but more of a mid and upper rpm profile) or the 282 which is more aggressive and "good for another 500 rpms".  They sent me the 282.  I don't have the specs yet.  From what I have heard this should be fun for a strung out 4 banger build.

Where will it go?  We will see.   Heeheeheee...

[Gnarly4X]

... They sent me the 282.  I don't have the specs yet. 

WHAT!!!?  You bought a cam without knowing what the specs are!!  THAT does not sound like the H8PVMNT I've been reading about!  Why didn't 22RE Performance provide the specs?

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Well I told him my intensions for the engine and said "I trust your judgement".  It is Jim Putney after all.  That dude doesn't mess around.  Don't worry I'll get the specs.

[Gnarly4X]

Well I told him my intensions for the engine and said "I trust your judgement".  It is Jim Putney after all.  That dude doesn't mess around.  Don't worry I'll get the specs.

I'm just rattling your chain!! 

I figured you had a conversation with Jim.... Yes, he definitely knows his poop!!  I've had several conversations with Jim and I like the way he talks.   He doesn't talk like a salesman (sometimes I get that from LCE), he talks like an automotive engineer who loves what he does and takes a lot of pride in his craft. 

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

That engine build has it's own file cabinet...

[Gnarly4X]

That engine build has it's own file cabinet...

    Pinky teaser.... 

File cabinet....  hhmmmm... storing and organizing reams of documents for easy access or securing documents for limited access - keyed and locked. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

... Don't worry I'll get the specs.

Any closer to getting those secret cam specs? 

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I will shoot him another email.

[emsvitil]

Any closer to getting those secret cam specs? 

Gnarls.

How's your spreadsheet of specs coming along?

[Gnarly4X]

How's your spreadsheet of specs coming along?

Hey emsvitil....

Yeah.... I'm working on it sporadically.  It's a fairly tedious and time consuming process to extract the data from the sources and out of my software, then paste or type it into my spreadsheet. 

It will be interesting to me to see the various Toyota cam specs together in one snapshot. 

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

OK Jim sent this info on the 282 cam grind:  "The lift on both is 433. Duration @ .050 is 226 and the LS is 110."

So it appears to be the same on intake and exhaust.  That's not much but I would assume if you piece it together with the 272 stuff you did...

[Gnarly4X]

OK Jim sent this info on the 282 cam grind:  "The lift on both is 433. Duration @ .050 is 226 and the LS is 110."

So it appears to be the same on intake and exhaust.  That's not much but I would assume if you piece it together with the 272 stuff you did...

C'mon.... I need a spec sheet with the profile!! 

Those numbers don't mean diddly without the ICL. 

What's the valve lash? 

What's the price? 

What's the availability? 

Why this one over the 272? 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

H8PVMNT,

I have played with numbers in EA.  Like the 272 info you posted, those specs do not make any sense.   

Although I would tend to trust Jim's recommendations, just for poops & chuckles I still want to see what his camshaft profile looks like compared to others in the program. 

What rocker ratio is 22RE Performance using to calculate max valve lift?

What are the opening and closing events?

Did you and Jim discuss cam timing, overlap, idle quality, vacuum, your elevation, fuel consumption? 

What compression ratio are you predicting with this engine?

What RPM range are you targeting for peak torque?

Unless your project is highly classified, I'm curious and just looking to get a better picture on those cams and how they will perform in your engine. 

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

All he will send me is these kind of incomplete specs.

The project is not at all classified but where I will end up will depend on what parts I can come up with.

As far as my goals, I told him I wanted to build a nasty strung out 4 banger, probably a 20r/22r hybrid, maybe just a 20r, idle quality be damned, that gets it from about 3,000 to 6,500 rpms.  Told him I was going to use it with either side drafts or a Weber 38.  Intended driving was drifting around on farm roads, skidding logs in the mud and a bit of high rpm snow shredding.  The truck this is intended for is in no way a "crawler".  He knows my elevation.  Economy was not a concern.

Then I told him "I trust your judgement...", and he sent the 282.

He doesn't seem very forthcoming with the complete specs.  It took a while and several e-mails to get what I got. I wonder if he is doing this on purpose?

I think you should call him up and convince him you aren't a manufacturer/seller of cams and see if he will spill the beans .