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That cam, same one I have. Would not mess up your cold start. What I'd do is replace your ECU temp sensor on the lower intake manifold as a replacement is cheap, check your cold start thermo timing switch and your cold start injector.
Maybe, there's a temp sensor for your gauge and and a coolant temp sensor for the ECU. So I call it the ECU temp sensor. I had the stock cam before I swapped. I was having a cold start problem and it was the thermo time switch. Just because it ohms out doesn't mean it's good. I'd pull it back out and clean it up as well as check the connector going to it.
I believe you commented on your 261C in earlier posts here, so would you choose this cam again? What does your butt dyno say about it?Most of the people I've read about or spoke to made their cam change during a rebuild, so the actual "change" in performance between camshaft profiles is difficult to determine. As I mentioned, I am planning to do some cam swaps after this engine is completely broken in, tuned, and running like I think it should, so I can "feel", and possibly chassis dyno, the results of the change.One thing with this cam that I'm not happy about is the fact that 6 of the lobes are misaligned to the rockers - off by as much as .100". I don't believe it's the rocker rack, but I have not verified that. It may be just lack of quality control during the casting of the camshaft? I am curious if you have noticed this with your 261C? Next time you have the rocker cover off, would you mind checking out the alignment and letting me know.
... I have tried many times to save people from the same mistake I made.
...First, the claims made by various aftermarket suppliers are rarely, if ever, backed up by reasonable proof that I can see.Has anyone seen or can provide a certified dyno test comparing several highly touted camshafts with a Toyota 20/22 stock camshaft?Over the past 20 years or so, it’s interesting to me how times I have read about someone hacking up an air intake box, or for this particular topic, selling a new camshaft profile that increases the “power” in a factory stock engine…. which by the way, arguably have been engineered by the most brilliant automotive minds on the planet - in the most technologically advanced “work shop” anyone could imagine.....Gnarls.
Totally agree with you on claims made by aftermarket parts suppliers. Would be nice to see some documented testing.As to your comment about Toyota engineers - keep in mind they were constrained by many things that are often not relevant, or at least not as important to enthusiasts building these engines 30 years later. If you want significantly more power than stock you pretty much *have* to go with aftermarket parts, especially headers, cams, and carbs.Emissions were a huge deal for them, along with cold starting, low speed drivability, durability, economy, and manufacturing costs. I know guys in Cali. have to worry about emissions, but a lot of folks in other places, like here in WA, don't. I can put whatever I want in my truck and the gubmint doesn't care. I also don't care a whole lot about cold starting, I know how to get a performance engine started and how to deal with it for the 5 minutes it takes to warm up. I'm also not expecting this engine to last another 220K miles like the stock one did, nor am I concerned with saving $0.50 on each valvespring because I'm not installing millions of them.That said, it seem like any time you start dealing with aftermarket parts and deviating from stock things often don't fit or work right without some serious dicking around...
Said this before I installed the 261c when I rebuilt my last 22re. 10k miles later I could not handle it any longer. In the trash it went I replaced it with a Lce power pro cam and adjustable timing gear. The difference was huge!I have tried many times to save people from the same mistake I made.
I just checked out the Lce cams on the web site.I think they have changed the names of the cams but there descriptions sound like the same as what I remember.The pro torquer sounds like the one I chose.
Thanks! That cam is interesting because of the big duration split between intake and exhaust. I'd think if you're running headers and a good exhaust system you wouldn't need so much extra exhaust duration.
Which engine analyzer program are you running?
Does it have a built-in profile for a Toyota 22R head or do you have to enter the variables for things like valve size, port volume, port length, etc?
As to the LCE cam - I thought the split was only 12 degrees...? Without going and looking it up, isn't the I/E duration @ .050" 208/220?
Where can I find specs on stock Toyota cams? If it's in the FSM I have been unable to locate a 1984 FSM for a reasonable price. The 1985 and later are plentiful but for some reason the earlier ones are had to come by so I've just been living with a Haynes manual and this website for technical stuff.
I would really like to see the specs for the factory carb and EFI cams so we have a meaningful baseline to compare the aftermarket cams.
The baseline would be a stock engine and the components Toyota put into it. This would not be subjective. It appears the problem is finding this information.Did Toyota not publish cam specs? Do the FSMs not have that information in them? That would be the most authoritative resource. The link you posted above doesn't really contain enough info on the cams, as you surely know. No lobe centerlines, no duration @ .050", etc. I also find it really odd that the intake and exhaust durations are reversed from carb to EFI and that the Carb cams had quite a bit more intake duration. Is that possibly a typo?Is it possible to still order a stock replacement cam from Toyota? If so, then someone could measure it to find out what it really is.Other information is also needed. What is the (designed) combustion chamber volume of stock heads (20R, 22R, 22RE), what dome or dish volume did stock pistons have, etc. I'd guess a lot of that is in the FSMs.You say you entered all the parameters for the 22R head in the Engine Analyzer. Does that mean you CC'd a port and measured it's length and diameter? I'd think that measuring average port diameter and even port length might be difficult given the goofy 22R head design.Big kudos to you if you've gathered all this data. Have you published it on the web anywhere (links?).Understand, I'm just searching for info and asking questions here in the spirit of sharing info and learning. Cheers!
Have you published it on the web anywhere (links?).
Hey Plainview, As I stated, this forum and other Toyota forums has lots of my posts with data.Since the majority of actively participating forum members are DIYers, time and money are usually two key aspects of their hobby. Regarding actual measurements…. There are most likely a very few number of people who actively participate in this forum or any other Toyota forum, who have rebuilt their engine, that has physically cc’d a Toyota head or even degreed a cam profile, much less flow benched their head, or had any dyno testing performed.
So… much of the “information” that I read about is subjective, opinion, or simply virtual.
Specific and detailed information from Toyota FSMs or other repair manuals with data and specifications, although probably available, in my experience it has not been easily sourced. ...
Most of the specific specs and measurement data gathered from my research has been verified, and sometimes disputed, by a number of people that I would consider either expert, reputable authority, or extremely knowledgeable sources.You ask good questions and since you appear to be interested facts, I encourage you to spend some time doing some research. After you find some good information, go ahead and post it, I’d love to see more information.Here's a good research question for you..... how many cc's is a factory stock 1986 22RE head chamber, and what type of chamber is it? I'd be interested to know how long it takes you to find out, and what source(s) you used to get the "facts". Good luck. Gnarls.
This is what I find surprising given how big of a following these engines have. They are still quite popular today, closing in on 30 years since the last one was produced. Judging by the offerings on LCE's website it appears people circle-track race with these engines. I bet those guys know quite a bit about them, maybe I need to find a Toyota circle-track site, if such a thing exists.
It seems to me Toyota enthusiasts are a bunch of DIYers for the most part. You read about all kinds of fabrication and cool stuff on this and other sites like Pirate and Yotatech so it's confusing to me why engine tech specs are hard to sleuth out and why people wouldn't be building engines when they're building transmissions and swapping/rebuilding differentials and transfer cases and suspensions and such.
… If the info is in the FSM, why would it not be readily available. As mentioned in a previous post, the only reason I don't have an FSM is because I haven't been able to find one for '84 for a reasonable price. I'm not paying $150 for one, I can do a lot of poking around and asking questions for that kind of money, and the last one I saw on Ebay was priced there. The later FSMs seem to be far more abundant for some reason.
LOL what is this, a test for the noob?
Well, before I even looked for it I knew a few details about the 20R/22R/22RE heads. I know that the RE heads are all basically the same from '85 'til end of production. I'd be surprised if there weren't some revisions and differences over those years but my understanding is they're all interchangeable. The RE uses a much smaller, shallower chamber that's more of a "kidney" shape and a flat-top piston. This configuration is much more efficient than the 20/22R big hemispherical chamber with a dome piston. I don't know what you're asking for when you ask for chamber "type." Lots of words get used to describe combustion chambers. Compared to the 20/22R chambers, in the world I come from they'd be described as a "closed" chamber vs. an "open" or "hemi" chamber on the earlier heads.
A quick Googling just to prove I'm not lazy beyond redemption turned up LCE's tech page which states RE chambers are 58cc but there's a weird reference to the RET though it doesn't state any differences between them. I don't know much about the RETs so wondering if maybe they used the same head but a dished piston as the one thing I do know about them (other than that they had turbos) was that they had a lower compression ratio, which is typical of turbo motors. I saw some references to the RE heads on a couple other forums as well.
Thing is, I'm not working on RE engines and while they have a superior combustion chamber design they're going to respond the same way to performance modifications as any other 22R/RE, differences in carb/FI notwithstanding. Therefore I'm not terribly motivated to do a bunch of research to turn up a number that doesn't mean a whole lot to me. However, if I could verify that info I'd catalog it and pass it along to anyone who asked.
Which brings up the last thing I want to type before I head out to the garage to continue to be frustrated by aftermarket parts - I'm all about the free exchange of info. I'm happy to share anything I may have learned. If I know something for a fact, I'll say so. If I'm not sure, I'll try to make that clear. If someone asks a question and I know the answer I'm happy to share. I can't count the number of times I've posted this image on the Pontiac websites when someone asks how to identify a cylinder head: https://flic.kr/p/UPbMKq Ask me anything you want about Pontiac V8 engines, those are something I know something about.
Gnarly - YES, those are such beautiful cars.....
Plainview, Tod, Engnbldr's son does machine work. He's out of Portland. I know he'd do quality work and is very reasonable.
Geezz… Plainview, I’m going to have to relinquish my title of forum “Novelist” to you. LOL… The best, most interesting and informative threads I’ve read over the years have long-read posts.... “2-beer” posts....Gnarls.
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