Topic: Thinking about getting bigger cam??

[Gnarly4X]

I really appreciate you doing this.  Fun to see the differences.

How about this bad boy?  This is my final what if.

20R/22R Stage 2 Camshaft   Part Number: 1022036
4WD / Pre-Runner / Hot Street 2WD (1500-5500 rpm)

 

Intake
Exhaust

Valve Lash
.008
.012

Valve Lift
.460
.460

Advertised Duration
270°
270°

Duration @ .050"
240°
240°

Lobe Center
102°
118°

Lobe Seperation
110°



Intake Opens
15° BTDC

Intake Closes
42° ABDC

Exhaust Opens
59° BBDC

Exhaust Closes
0° ATDC

No.. no final what ifs required.... I like looking at the data myself.... it's fun.

I have always hoped that one of the cam suppliers would look at my mock pulls and cam profile specs and chime in to say that my Performance Trends data is ca-ca!.... but so far no one has "officially" challenged the data, and offered certified dyno test data... other than personal experiences and "butt dyno" feedback.

I'll plug in the specs tonight and update the sheet.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Well the numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt but I think what is valuable is the differences we can see from one cam to the next.  Looking at the stock profile numbers I would totally agree with the long, drawn out flat torque from what I feel driving the thing.

This stuff will help me make my cam choice for sure.  If that LC Stage 2 is a drastic departure from the others I may use it, if not then I would choose one of the cams with a little less lift.

[kneedownnate]

Have you seen any info on the old mikuni cams?  I bought mine nos off ebay years ago and have never come across any solid specs, don't even remember it coming in a box    This is what an old member found once:

I did a quick google on mikuni toyota cam, and came up with a lift of I think .430 and a duration of around 280*...the problem is that desktop dyno requires intake and exhaust valve opening and closing degrees..

IVO 2.0*BTDC IVC 32.0*ATDC
EVO 44.0* BBDC  EVC 0.0* ATDC

[emsvitil]

Have you seen any info on the old mikuni cams?  I bought mine nos off ebay years ago and have never come across any solid specs, don't even remember it coming in a box    This is what an old member found once:

I did a quick google on mikuni toyota cam, and came up with a lift of I think .430 and a duration of around 280*...the problem is that desktop dyno requires intake and exhaust valve opening and closing degrees..

IVO 2.0*BTDC IVC 32.0*ATDC
EVO 44.0* BBDC  EVC 0.0* ATDC

equals:

intake duration 214
exhaust duration 224

intake centerline 105
exhaust centerline 112

lobe separation 108.5

The 214,224 numbers sound like a .050 number, so I'm guessing 272,282

[Gnarly4X]

I updated the sheet and added the LCE cam specs that H8PVMNT posted last.

Please NOTE:  Because the HP numbers peaked after 5,900 RPM, I ran them out to 6,000+.

The Microsoft Excel sheet file name is changed to the date code that I make the update, so you won't overwrite previous sheets when you download it.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

...the problem is that desktop dyno requires intake and exhaust valve opening and closing degrees..

My DD will calculate the valve opening and closing events based on centerline degrees for intake and exhaust.  The program does not "require" the data.  The program will also calculate valve timing based on duration.

If I know the intake and exhaust opening and closing events in degrees, and don't know the lobe centers, the program will calculate the lobe centers in degrees.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

For those who may be interested....

I have attached an updated sheet - 11-20-2016.

At the bottom of the sheet I have compared the cam profiles that look to produce the best torque and HP numbers for my target build….more TORQUE between 2500 and 3500 RPM.

As you can see the factory stock cam profile is VERY impressive when adding a Doug Thorley header and free-flow exhaust.

I added two Comp Cam profiles. The Comp Cam 252S is a very interesting profile and has been installed by two guys that gave me feedback on their experience and butt dyno impressions – one was a 22RE the other was 22R engines.

My decision to install the 261C engbldr cam, first, in this rebuild is based in part on the Performance Trends numbers on this comparison.  I plan to tune and chassis dyno my truck around 5,000 miles.  Based on the dyno test results, I will decide the next camshaft to install and chassis dyno test.

Please keep in mind these number are for a 20R, but they should parallel the 22R and 22RE engines.

Gnarls. 

[kneedownnate]

equals:

intake duration 214
exhaust duration 224

intake centerline 105
exhaust centerline 112

lobe separation 108.5

The 214,224 numbers sound like a .050 number, so I'm guessing 272,282

Thanks!  I'd like to try this cam on a better engine.  With the 20r head it will rev to the moon and pull way harder than the stock cam

[Gnarly4X]

Thanks!  I'd like to try this cam on a better engine.  With the 20r head it will rev to the moon and pull way harder than the stock cam

Any idea what the advertised lift is?

Gnarls

[kneedownnate]

Honestly, no.  I think they were produced in the 80s, and the seller I bought it from got them in a bulk buyout.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey kneedownnate,

You don't know this, but I did intense research for the first 2 years I started researching cams for the 22s, around Christmas of 1999.  I looked for every available camshaft for a 22.  I spoke to a number of suppliers, manufacturers, and a number technical engineers.  I looked for any certified dyno tests.  I plugged in the profile specs into my DD software program and made 100's of mock pulls.  I have a nice library of camshaft profiles for the 20R, 22R, and 22RE.  Which, by the way, does NOT make me any kind of "expert" in camshafts.

I have some specs for a Clevite camshaft that has a 214/224 duration and .416"/.430" lift.  I have no idea if this cam is the same profile you have experience with. 

The only other similar profile that I know about is this one:  http://www.cranecams.com/282-283.pdf

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I have updated the sheet again.

If you are interested, please look at the bottom of the sheet, I added another profile.  Please look at the torque numbers, especially from off idle through 4,000 RPMs, compared to the other cams.

Any comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I have updated the sheet again.

If you are interested, please look at the bottom of the sheet, I added another profile.  Please look at the torque numbers, especially from off idle through 4,000 RPMs, compared to the other cams.

Any comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

Thanks. So the last profile is of your own design?

[Gnarly4X]

Thanks. So the last profile is of your own design?

Yes, I spent lots of hours "playing" with the software. Since I stopped playing when I totaled my 1985 22R, I did not talk to a cam shop to consult with them on "my" design profile. I was seriously thinking about having my own camshaft ground to my "tweaked" specs.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

 I enjoy beating a dead horse as much as the next guy. :beating dead horse:  Unsubscribed 

[Gnarly4X]

 

[79coyotefrg]

It's funny that the stock cam seems to do better for the 20r than it does for the 22r.  Kind of makes me think they designed the stock cam profile around the 20r and then just decided it was good enough for the 22r and kept using it.

DING DING DING we have a winner.

[79coyotefrg]

Yes, I spent lots of hours "playing" with the software. Since I stopped playing when I totaled my 1985 22R, I did not talk to a cam shop to consult with them on "my" design profile. I was seriously thinking about having my own camshaft ground to my "tweaked" specs.

Gnarls.

LCE offers this service

[emsvitil]

Oregon Cams is spoken of highly on the slantsix.org forum..........

They'll do whatever you want for a regrind.

[Gnarly4X]

Thanks 79coyotefrg and emsvitil,

Yeah, most cam makers, as well as other machine shops like Oregon and Delta, offer a custom grind.

Back in the early 2000’s I was very curious about and somewhat skeptical of the claims on the aftermarket engine products for my Toyota trucks.

I wanted to learn more about the mysterious bump stick. Any “real” test data on the camshafts offered by suppliers was very scarce or non-existent to the public.  The technical people I was able to talk to did not really want to answer all my questions about their cams.

I understand the concepts of trade secrets, intellectual property, and patents, however I also believe there are lots of marketing claims that are not substantiated.

After seeing the range of numbers and results for various cam profiles in my DD software, I decided to design my own profile using the software – looking for more torque.. My plan was to use my “customer grind” as a way to engage with the cam makers and consult with them on a technical level.  I did not necessarily believe my mock profile was any better than theirs, or that a $100 software program (even though it is highly regarded) was a magical crystal ball.

I simply wanted to know the how and why and more than…

“This cam has an offset duration between the intake
and exhaust side to create a strong low-end torque
curve while still providing good pulling power up to 5,000 RPM.”

Or ..

“Good idle, performance usage, off road, good with mild
aftermarket turbo systems, intercooler advised, aftermarket
intake/low restriction exhaust and ECM required, 9.5
to 10.75 compression ratio advised.”

And … “SOLID-Smooth torque and economy, Best cam to replace OEM grind. Very smooth idle.”

Actually seeing or reading a certified dyno test performed on a SuperFlo 902S, for example, comparing the Toyota factory stock 20R,22R, 22RE camshaft with any of the aftermarket profiles would be ideal.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I was looking at the Schneider Racing Cams site.  They have a bunch of different grinds.  I had one of their lower RPM cams in my first 22re and it was pretty good stuff.

The great thing about a dead horse is how much of the horse you can actually use. After you eat it there is the hide, bones can be used for tools, sinews can be used for sewing and backing bows, the stomach can be made into a water container...   

[Gnarly4X]

I was looking at the Schneider Racing Cams site.  They have a bunch of different grinds.  I had one of their lower RPM cams in my first 22re and it was pretty good stuff.

The great thing about a dead horse is how much of the horse you can actually use. After you eat it there is the hide, bones can be used for tools, sinews can be used for sewing and backing bows, the stomach can be made into a water container...   

I did a bunch of mock pulls on Schneider cams.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Anything worth while?

[Gnarly4X]

Anything worth while?

Hey H8PVMNT,

If you had not mentioned Schneider, I may not have looked at those cams again.

I looked at 7 of the profiles I have, in a short 10 increment spread on the RPM range, and I was REALLY surprised!!  The data is for my 22R engine that I was researching back in the early 2000's.

I need to go back and carefully re-look at the specs and numbers because they appear to be extraordinarily high! 

I will post  some numbers for you to get some valid comparison.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Cool.  They should have their head screwed on right.  They come from the old school hot rod scene.

[Gnarly4X]

Cool.  They should have their head screwed on right.  They come from the old school hot rod scene.

Hey H8PVMNT,

I looked at Schneider's site and YES they have some VERY interesting cam profiles for the 22s.  I plugged in some of their specs and got some very interesting numbers.  It takes me awhile to enter the specs, process the numbers (mock pulls),  compile them into the RPM range, then transfer them into the Excel sheet.

I should have some ready to post by Sunday.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey H8PVMNT,

Thank you for mentioning the Schneider cams.

At the bottom of the sheet I added the two cam profiles that interest me the most - for torque.  I used my current engine rebuild specs (22RE).  I compared the Schneider FI lobe separation spec (202-216 duration) and EB's 261C.

Schneider has some very impressive profiles!

It's interesting to see how Schneider uses different lobe separation specs in their profiles for carb vs fuel injection.  They also show the rocker ratio as 1.55 instead of 1.457.  Schneider also changes the valve lash specs.

Here's their site:  http://schneidercams.com/Toyota20R_NA.aspx

I added some data to the attached sheet.  For those who know Excel, you can apply the spit windows (vertical and horizontal) and compare your favorite data.

Oh.. and by the way, anyone who would beat a dead horse is a pathetic psychopath. 

Gnarls.

[boscounderfoot]

I had great luck with the 270 I ran in my 22RTE.  The engine was bored to 93mm, massaged head w/ HD valve springs, rebuilt rockers, '82 Supra VAFM, 440cc injectors, '89 Supra intercooler and 3" turbo back exhaust.  From 2500 to 5500 it pulled real hard!  My buddy ran a 260 in his stock 22RE and it was fine.  He picked up a gear's performance on the highway and "claims" he's getting better mileage.

[Gnarly4X]

I'm resurrecting this thread to get some input.

How many of you have tried or now running an aftermarket camshaft that is different than the factory stock...... AND have experienced ANY differences in cold starting.

The reason I'm asking is because I am working on figuring out why my rebuild has a problem with cold starting.  I have not completed all the tests on all the "sensors".  It's still not completely broken in, according to the experts who seem to agree that it takes about 500 to 1,000 miles.

The engbldr 261C cam I have installed has more overlap (6 degrees according their cam spec) than most of the aftermarket 22 cam profiles. The factory stock 22RE camshaft overlap is 2.6 degrees according to my DD.

I'm curious whether or not the amount of overlap can affect the cold cranking compression, or otherwise affect what the ECU sees during initial cold starting.

I measured the valve lash on #1 cylinder intake.  I measured the lash at the bottom of the  base circle, and then with the crankshaft at zero degrees on the oil pump tab.  I was surprised that the measurement at the base circle was to spec - .007".  However when I measured the lash by the crankshaft position, the lash was tighter, about .006".  Which would indicate that the intake valve will be opening earlier than the stock profile. Should there be a difference in measurement between the two areas on the camshaft?

I believe this confirms the increased overlap in the 261C cam.  Since increased cam overlap increases high RPM power and lowers low RPM power, I'm curious why the 6 degrees of overlap was designed into a "crawler cam".

I will take some more measurements.

Any comments and information will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

That cam, same one I have. Would not mess up your cold start.  What I'd do is replace your ECU temp sensor on the lower intake manifold as a replacement is cheap, check your cold start thermo timing switch and your cold start injector.