Topic: Thinking about getting bigger cam??

[H8PVMNT]

UPDATE 8-21-2016:  Cam Compare - 20R - see attached Excel sheet.
Please let me know if you cannot download and view it.

Well, I finally was able to do some mock pulls and transfer the data to an Excel sheet.

For those interested, please review and let me know what you think. 

Gnarls.

I was looking over this again today and I don't think I'd choose anything but a stock cam and exhaust upgrade on the 20r unless I was building the 20r/22r hybrid.  Then I think I'd Glen it up with the big nasty LC cam since we have video proof of his truck accelerating like a Celica.

The 261C look pretty good on it but the stock cam still kind of smokes it in the drivability area looking at the curve.  Funny how that smaller displacement and different head change how it responds to a cam upgrade.  I wouldn't have thought it would be much different than the 22r.

[Gnarly4X]

I was looking over this again today and I don't think I'd choose anything but a stock cam and exhaust upgrade on the 20r unless I was building the 20r/22r hybrid.  Then I think I'd Glen it up with the big nasty LC cam since we have video proof of his truck accelerating like a Celica.

The 261C look pretty good on it but the stock cam still kind of smokes it in the drivability area looking at the curve.  Funny how that smaller displacement and different head change how it responds to a cam upgrade.  I wouldn't have thought it would be much different than the 22r.

Yes, its interesting to see what changes do, at least what the calculated data shows.

It also confirms what I've believed for many years that the Japanese auto engineers are a lot smarter than some people give them credit.  Of course the auto manufacturers are bound by the our EPA laws, etc. Considering that other countries may have different environmental laws regardng automobiles, Toyota does a pretty good job at developing highly marketable engines and vehicles.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

For those who may be interested...

I was asked to make some comparisons on my Performance Trends Engine Analyzer v3.2, with the stock specs on a 20R engine, 20R stock cam, engbldr 261C, LCE Street Performer, LCE Pro Torquer.  I did 5 mock pulls for each camshaft profile, running from 1,000 to 5,900 RPMs.  I added a logical modification when doing a cam profile change by adding a header and 2” exhaust.

Running Conditions: Barometric Pressure: 29.82, Air Intake Temp: 80d F, Dew Point: 37d F, Elevation: 1,000, Coolant Temp: 195d F, Fuel Octane: 87

I have attached a Microsoft Excel spread sheet.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

I like the stock cam with header and exhaust....

[79coyotefrg]

Hi 79coyotefrg,

I think those specs are off? 

Isn't the 22 head considered a hemispherical?

Interestingly, the Engine Analyzer shows better numbers for the wedge head over the hemi head selection for the 20R.

Gnarls.

not really but close. the chamber is more of a wedge shape. the biggest difference between the 20R and 22R heads is the way the air flows into them.   you cant look in the intake port of a 22R and see inside the cylinder when the valve opens. the 20R you can. and the 20R is a true hemi shape

[79coyotefrg]

Tuning exhaust performance is very complex.

The cam profile, especially overlap and cam timing, can affect exhaust systems.  I imagine most of us that have modified our engines with larger valves, porting and polishing, cam, header, and larger exhaust pipe, free flow mufflers, don’t really understand what changes have occurred to flow and volumetric efficiency, and what affects those changes make in the ultimate desire for increase power.

Are the headers we buy equal length?

usually very close, within an inch.

What lengths are best for a 22R and 22RE?

30 to 34 inch headers seem to work best for me

 

Why does a tri-Y design scavenge better?

  because when #1 is about to suck fuel and air in #3 is still expelling so when #3 exhaust closes it finishes the syphoning effect through that #1 a split second sucking more air in. 

 

Does it scavenge better at WOT or partial throttle?

about half throttle to wot if you have an efficient intake.

I believe exhaust tuning has been historically trial and error.

  Downey offroad and LCE did extensive research in the 80's on desert trucks and ToySport in the Celica's.  they all worked tirelessly to give Toyota owners a great product.

Is the testing done at WOT or a range of RPMs?

varies depending on what application

There are physical “things” going on that may not be easily measured or even calculated.  Can you measure swirl on a flow bench? Can you measure the pulses at each tube and at the collector? Can you measure the sonic wave caused by exhaust pulses?  Can you measure the mass flow at WOT (wide open throttle)?

yes to all

 

What affect does increased compression cause?

it gives you more power but if you go too high you will have to use premium or even race fuel

 

How about the number of angles and cut degrees on the exhaust valve?

   I have done 5 angle grinds but a good smooth 3 angle grind is all you need.

  How about the AF mixture – wave velocity changes depending upon a lean or rich mixture.

its very important. if your af mix is too lean your engine runs hotter and can do bad things, too rich and its going to smoke and foul plugs and just run like crap not to mention getting very bad fuel mileage.

The size of the exhaust tuning from the collector back can be critical to maintaining the performance gained by the header and the cam.  Is the tubing mandrel or crimp bent?  Does a 2.0” diameter flow better than a 2.5”?

   whatever size your collector is is the size of tube you need to run all the way back.

Lots to think about and more that I will most likely never completely understand.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Correction:

With an inline 4 and a Tri-Y header:   cylinder 3 doesn't have much of an effect on cylinder 1 compared to the cylinder it's paired with.

The cylinder pairings are 1&4  and 2&3.       

[79coyotefrg]

Correction:

With an inline 4 and a Tri-Y header:   cylinder 3 doesn't have much of an effect on cylinder 1 compared to the cylinder it's paired with.

The cylinder pairings are 1&4  and 2&3.       

   are you sure? I'm not going out tonight to see so ok, use 1 and 4 instead

[emsvitil]

http://4wheelonline.com/doug-thourley-tri-y-headers-toyota.224605.0


The pairings get weird on V-8s.....

The stock manifold is actually a tri-y setup.

[79coyotefrg]

http://4wheelonline.com/doug-thourley-tri-y-headers-toyota.224605.0


The pairings get weird on V-8s.....

The stock manifold is actually a tri-y setup.

you are correct.  I hadnt looked at one lately,  I knew the stock 22r/re was a try y

[Gnarly4X]

I updated the spread sheet.  I added engbldr 268 cam and the running conditions for this comparison.

I also highlighted with blue the delta in the RPM range for torque and horsepower within 2 numbers.  In other words, the peak torque and peak horsepower and 2 numbers either side of that peak number.

You can see by the numbers and the ranges that the stock camshaft profile has a nice flat extended range in RPMs for torque.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Thanks Gnarls.  The stock cam really pulls out the torque but the 261C still looks like it gets it done.

I am surprised the LC cams didn't look better.

I'd love to see the LC stage 2 cam and the EB 270/.430 cam.  Based on Glen's video the LC stage 2 might be worth fly-cutting pistons for.  I talked to EB and they recommended the 270/.430 for my daily driver, winding it out pushing headwinds etc. Seems to be the cam they have for the guy wanting the "strung our 4 banger".

[Gnarly4X]

Hey H8PVMNT,

Thanks.  Yes, there are some very interesting numbers that come out of this software. The numbers may not be accurate for the baseline, but are probably very close and accurate for the "changes" in the physical (cam profile, compression, displacement, etc) and the enviromental (RH, elevation, ambient air temperature, etc).

Until and unless I can see for myself any certified dyno testing (engine or chassis) I'm going to assume these numbers are probably pretty close to actual testing, obviously debatable and have different experiences as expressed on the many sites I've been on for the past 18 years. Most of the numbers do parallel actual experiences and comments by guys who have made changes and modifications.  And, like those who do serious testing, what shows up on a chassis dyno may not be what the driver experiences on the track.

I will run some numbers that include the LCE Stage 2 cam and EB 270 cam and update the sheet.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Since I'm looking.... has anyone installed a camshaft from 22RE Performance and wouldn't mind sharing your experience, thoughts, and engine specs?  Or... does anyone know what the cam profile and cam specs are for any of the camshafts they offer?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I've visited with that guy on a few things and he HAS to have cam grinds figured out as knowledgeable as he is.  I know they have a different take on carb vs. efi which is good.

[emsvitil]

Throw a TRD stage 1 and stage 2 in there.  (I think they're the same as the crane cams)

[Gnarly4X]

Throw a TRD stage 1 and stage 2 in there.  (I think they're the same as the crane cams)

Hi emsvitil,

This sheet is for a 20R comparison. Are you asking me to add TRD profiles?

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I updated the spread sheet.  I added engbldr 268 cam and the running conditions for this comparison.

I also highlighted with blue the delta in the RPM range for torque and horsepower within 2 numbers.  In other words, the peak torque and peak horsepower and 2 numbers either side of that peak number.

You can see by the numbers and the ranges that the stock camshaft profile has a nice flat extended range in RPMs for torque.

Gnarls.

It's funny that the stock cam seems to do better for the 20r than it does for the 22r.  Kind of makes me think they designed the stock cam profile around the 20r and then just decided it was good enough for the 22r and kept using it.

[Gnarly4X]

It's funny that the stock cam seems to do better for the 20r than it does for the 22r.  Kind of makes me think they designed the stock cam profile around the 20r and then just decided it was good enough for the 22r and kept using it.

Very insightful observation.

Look, arguably the Japanese auto engineers have been, in more recent automotive history, the best automotive minds on the planet.

If you had an “auto shop” with a billion dollar budget, every imaginable tool and the most advanced automotive technology available, coupled with a 75-year history of successful design, testing, production, and global marketability, it does not surprise me that they could test and design a camshaft profile that works exceptionally well in multiple engines for vehicles designed for a world-wide production market.

With that said… we know that environmental “laws”, especially in the USA, restrict some degree “designed-in-power” in order to comply with regulations.  Add the consumer demand for good gas mileage, high reliability, low maintenance, comfort, wireless electronics….  AND we want it to perform on the street like a $2.5 million Formula 1 car!

I don’t believe it takes a huge amount of genius to figure out that moving the valve timing on a camshaft profile can and will effect the engine's performance… both in actual torque numbers and in ultimate horsepower calculations… for any given RPM range or RPM value.

Back to my original quest (starting in 1986) for more power out of my little 22R, I started looking for a camshaft profile (about 1994) that would give me more TORQUE between 2500 to 3500 RPM, where I need it the most for my driving style.

What other “bolt-in” engine component can increase the torque in a stock 20R, 22R, 22RE by about 10% for about $100?

That’s just my worthless opinion.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

It's funny that the stock cam seems to do better for the 20r than it does for the 22r.  Kind of makes me think they designed the stock cam profile around the 20r and then just decided it was good enough for the 22r and kept using it.

But,  they did change the cam when they went to the 22RE

Hi emsvitil,

This sheet is for a 20R comparison. Are you asking me to add TRD profiles?

Gnarls.

yes

[Gnarly4X]

Throw a TRD stage 1 and stage 2 in there.  (I think they're the same as the crane cams)

Hey emsvitil,

I looked at my old library of cam profiles and found TRD Level 1 and Level 2 specs.  I could not find any info on any site that TRD camshafts for the 20/22s are still available.

I did find the specs for Crane cams on their site.  The gross lift specs on the Crane cam is slightly different than what my specs are for the TRD cams.

I also found specs for Putney cams (22R and 22RE) that I got some years back.  Since these specs are from several years back, I would like to know if any of the specs have changed.  I will check with Jerry at 22RE Performance and see if I can get the specs for their cams.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

But,  they did change the cam when they went to the 22RE

Hey emsvitil,

I looked at the factory stock cam specs in *my library*, based on "my" research in the past, and they appear to be the same for the 20R, 22R, and the 22RE.

If anyone has information on different cam specs for these stock engines, I would really like to know what they are.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

This has the specs that I remember seeing on a different site:

http://www.22rte-trucks.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2428.0

For 1975 and up 20R's and non EFI 22R's:
   Intake Duration-   272 degrees
   Exhaust Duration-   248 degrees
   Intake Lift-      10.1 mm
   Exhaust Lift-      9.7 mm

For EFI 22R's:
   Intake Duration-   248 degrees
   Exhaust Duration-   280 degrees
   Intake Lift-      10.0 mm
   Exhaust Lift-      9.7 mm

[H8PVMNT]

I have a really old Haynes Manual with some cam information and it has the same difference for 20r/22r vs. 22re.  The cam I have in. my 22r now is the stock EFI profile because that is all that is available as a stock replacement these days.

I measured an original early 22r cam vs. a 22re cam and it did mic out a little bigger on the intake side if that means anything.  Biggest difference if this is all true is the difference in the duration intake/exhaust.  That has to do something big.

[Gnarly4X]

I have a really old Haynes Manual with some cam information and it has the same difference for 20r/22r vs. 22re.  The cam I have in. my 22r now is the stock EFI profile because that is all that is available as a stock replacement these days.

I measured an original early 22r cam vs. a 22re cam and it did mic out a little bigger on the intake side if that means anything.  Biggest difference if this is all true is the difference in the duration intake/exhaust.  That has to do something big.

There are some cam specs floating around on the factory stock 20R, 22R, and 22RE. The factory part number is the same for all three.... and as far as I know, the cam specs and profile is the same for all three.

There are "rumors" that the RTE (turbo) cam has a different duration to reduce valve overlap to avoid potential boost loss.... I don't have any specs on that rumor.
 
Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATE 11-18-2016

I updated the 20R sheet and added engbldr 270 camshaft.

The specs I have are:

222 degree Duration, 430/430 Lift, 110 lobe center.

Gnarls.

[OVRAROK]

   22ret cam specs
Code:     I     E
Duration @ .002"  308   336
Duration @ .050"   231   212
Lift @ stock lash   .383"   .373"
Lift at 0 lash   .391"   .385"
Centerline:   113.5   102.5

Seat to seat timing
(.002" lift)
Opens   30   80
Closes   98   64

.050" timing
Opens   -15   32
Closes   36   0

Overlap @ .002" lift:   106 deg
Overlap @ .050" lift:   -15 deg

[Gnarly4X]

   22ret cam specs
Code:     I     E
Duration @ .002"  308   336
Duration @ .050"   231   212
Lift @ stock lash   .383"   .373"
Lift at 0 lash   .391"   .385"
Centerline:   113.5   102.5

Seat to seat timing
(.002" lift)
Opens   30   80
Closes   98   64

.050" timing
Opens   -15   32
Closes   36   0

Overlap @ .002" lift:   106 deg
Overlap @ .050" lift:   -15 deg

Hey ovrarok,

Interesting.... I'll plug those into my DD tonight.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

UPDATE 11-18-2016

I updated the 20R sheet and added engbldr 270 camshaft.

The specs I have are:

222 degree Duration, 430/430 Lift, 110 lobe center.

Gnarls.

Interesting how it has a bit more in the lower rpms and a little more up top.  Pretty close to the 261C.

[H8PVMNT]

I really appreciate you doing this.  Fun to see the differences.

How about this bad boy?  This is my final what if.

20R/22R Stage 2 Camshaft   Part Number: 1022036
4WD / Pre-Runner / Hot Street 2WD (1500-5500 rpm)

 

Intake
Exhaust

Valve Lash
.008
.012

Valve Lift
.460
.460

Advertised Duration
270°
270°

Duration @ .050"
240°
240°

Lobe Center
102°
118°

Lobe Seperation
110°



Intake Opens
15° BTDC

Intake Closes
42° ABDC

Exhaust Opens
59° BBDC

Exhaust Closes
0° ATDC