1UZFE or 2UZFE into 93 4Runner - Auto Tranny Questions???

[cebby]

Well, my 3VZE 3.0 V6 gave up the fight.  ANOTHER headgasket.  I got alot of miles out of the last one, but this thing just can't get out of it's own way (with Auto trans) - the rig will be getting heavier, not lighter in the short term (still a DD)  I've seen the GM 4.3, Toy 7M, and Toy 5VZ swaps and started to look for an appropriate drivetrain to swap in.

I've also been intrigued by the Aussies and NZ that have put the 1UZFE (4.0 Lexus V8) into Hiluxes.  The fit seems to be reasonable and if running an auto tranny, not overly expensive.  Basically, you use the 1UZFE, 1UZFE ECU, 1UZFE bellhousing and bolt up most a340x 4WD auto trannies (with the correct side output).  The thing lacking in the 4.0 is low end torque sinze it is tuned for the street.  One of the benefits is that it is an alum block, so it's pretty light.  The natural progression from the 1UZ was the 2UZ.  Dimensionally the same as the 1UZ, but with an iron block.  Punched out to 4.7 L, this motor has the right torque band for an off road machine.

In my travels looking for a motor to swap in, I came across a low mileage 2UZ that I snatched up (just have to get it shipped in  )

From everything I've read, I don't need a bunch of custom things to make this work.  Really only custom motor mounts and some exhaust work...

So this brings me to the auto tranny.  It appears that the "most" compatible tranny for the 2UZFE ECU is a A340F from behind a 5VZ.  I currently have (2) top shift gear driven cases (with output) sitting in my garage.  I am toying with if I should put the crawl boxes on now (SAS in the future - will be a good ways off).

My question is this:  (If using my geared cases) Can I take any A340F and use it since I will be pulling and scrapping the original T-case?  I want to keep the output on the side where it is now since I'm keeping IFS for now.  If I bolt both geared cases behind the A340F, does it matter if the original tranny is right or left side output?  If it doesn't matter, I could get a newer low mileage tranny.

I know most of you run manuals, but Marlin has been helpful with my Auto tranny questions in the past.

[cebby]

Well, the 2UZ was sold out from under me (I even won the eBay auction).  I've got a line on a 1UZ (Lexus all allloy 4.0 V8). 

Marlin, anybody.....  Do you have an idea on the a340f question I posed above?  In a nutshell, if using a Marlin V6 adapter for an a340f, does it matter which side drop the tcase is since I'll be using gear driven reduction boxes and tcase for a passenger side drop...

The driver side drop trannies are very plentiful and cheap (and local!)

[cebby]

New developments on my engine swap:

I'm going with a 1UZFE out of an LS400 (JDM equivalent) with a LS400 auto trans converted to 4WD (A340F tailhousing and output shaft), Marlin V6 adapter, and dual ultimate setup.  I've accumulated most of the parts, (Engine, Harness, Trans, AFM, ECU), I just need the time to do it.

I've assumed that since I'm using two top shift gear drive cases, I don't need to worry about what A340F I get the tailhousing/output shaft from.  Anyone know for sure?

[raybie]

i was also looking into the 1uzfe, in fact i have one in my garage, but i want to stay manual.  i found this page http://lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=970&highlight=a340h  about autos.....  i have seen a few pics of 1uzfe's in hilux's and remember one from an LS400 in an IFS rig and he had to modify the oil pan.  i've been looking under SC400 and the oil pan looks more SAS friendly.  o' for my rig is a 90 4runner sas if that helps.

[cebby]

Well, I originally planned to use an A341E and convert it to 4WD.  I came across a 2000 4Runner with an A340F and thought it might be easier to use.  I'd just use a bellhousing and torque converter from a 1UZ application as folks had told me would work, but I ran into a snag.

The inputs are not the same on these two trannies as was originally thought.  The portion where the splines engage is a little bit different, but the actual length of the input shafts are different which is probably a bigger deal.  (A341E has the longer input)  The problem is getting the TC to bolt to the driveplate and still engage the splines.  It does not appear that it will work.

Here's a drawing I whipped up showing the difference:

http://rigs.corequipment.com/Cebby/93%204Runner/Transmission_Mods/TC%20&%20Input%20Dims%2050.pdf

So, I guess the question is: 

Do I swap out the output shaft and tailhousing from the A340F to the A341E

OR

Do I swap the input shaft from the A341E to the A340F?  Anyone have an idea which is easier?

I'd prefer to use the A340F trans if possible since it is newer and has better gearing for off-roading.

So, the statements about grabbing any A340x trans and swapping bellhousings to do this swap doesn't appear to hold water – unless I'm missing something...

[cebby]

Does anyone know if the input shaft comes out as an assembly after removing the flange around the input? Or do I need to dismantle 1/2 the trans like you do to change the output?

I have a diagram, but it isn't really clear about how to pull the input (not step by step llike an FSM).

[cebby]

Alright, time to update this thread.  Might be a little out of order tho...

Pic of the LS400 trans to be converted to 4WD:


2WD Tailhousing and output:


I will be getting my own garage "stall" at the race shop - stuff had to get moved around to make room for me.  Was supposed to move the 4Runner down there for a while now - looks like tomorrow if weather permits (we are supposed to get 4 inches of snow tonight and another 3 tomorrow)  I won't be able to get rolling on this until after May 3rd due to workload.

Aside from the Marlin "stuff" I need (easy enough, just order..), I need to locate an a340F tailhousing and output shaft (or an internally grenaded a340f to strip).

[cebby]

A few more pieces of the puzzle:











A340F trans and t-case from a 2000 4Runner V6, 67K miles.  After checking out the connectors on the trans, I will likely just use this A340F instead of converting the LS trans to 4WD.  There are 3 plugs.  Two are identical, one is slightly different, but had I think it had the same number of contacts.  I'll just need to get a pigtail for the a340f and splice it into my 1UZ harness.

The LS torque converter fits the input perfectly, but it's clear the VZ bellhousing won't work on the UZ engine.  It's too short and the bolt pattern is different.

I was investigating the various dual case adapters (MC07, MC08, and MC08-R10) and it was recommended that the MC07 is perfectly fine to use and that there is no significant advantage of using the MC08.  See this thread:  http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366164

OK, who needs a transfer case?  And what is all that "stuff" hanging off of the tcase in the last pic.

[cebby]

T-Case Removal from A340F

Got the case off tonight.  Piece of cake.  It seemed like the bolts holding the TC to the tailhousing weren't torqued much more than 30 lbs.  (Just a guess).

Together:



Apart:



Now, the coupler is another matter.  That thing is ON there.  I didn't want to run the risk of messing it up, so I didn't try too hard.

I think in discussing this we've found the answer.  If these couplers have a consistent inside diameter, then the problem isn't with the coupler being too large, but the tcase input being a thou too small.  If the OEM one is SO tight that it can't be pulled off by hand, that means the trans output and the tcase input are two different sizes.  My .02 anyway.

There is nothing between the shafts in the OEM couplers)  I'll try to figure out how to measure to see if there is any space between the shafts.  Might be tough without pulling the coupler.

Here's a few pics of the coupler:

[cebby]

Bellhousing Comparison

Here's some pics comparing the a341 and the a340f.

A341 bellhousing:







A340F bellhousing:

[cebby]

Bellhousing-Torque Converter Comparison

6 bolts to remove the VZ bellhousing from the A340F. (the ones around the perimeter - the 4 uppers take a 14mm socket, the 2 lower take a 17mm)



Unbolt the kick down cable (10mm socket):



Off she comes...



A shot of the A340F without the bellhousing:



Bellhousing and Torque converter comparison

VZ version on the left, UZ on the right.







 

Notice the designation on the bellhousings...



And the Torque Converters...

[cebby]

I ran into an issue with the input shaft lengths.  When using the UZ bellhousing/torque converter, you also need to use the input shaft and trans oil pump.

Guess what - swapping inputs IS a piece of cake.  Put the a341e input into the A340F and vice versa.

Here's the pic of the A340F input and oil pump.


The A340F with the input and oil pump removed.




Here's the A340F parts and A341E parts (A340F is on the left)


The ring on the input assembly on the right corresponds to a speed sensor on the A341E.  The A340F has a hole for the sensor and the mounting screw.  I just need to knock out the freeze plug.  I need to figure out is if the sensor in the tailhousing will work instead - looks to be the same, but I need to check their resistance and see what type of signal the ECU is expecting.


Here's the A340F area where a speed sensor could go:


Here's the one on the tailhousing of the A340F:


Here's the one on the case of the A341E:


Here's the input assemblies side by side - notice the A341E shaft is a bit longer:

[cebby]

Oil Pumps are the same:




The oil pump drive (splined hollow shaft sticking out) is a little longer on the A341E.


Completed hybrid A340F:


If someone else is attempting this, you won't need a complete donor trans like I have.  I'll figure out the fewest parts needed eventually and get this thing down to a shopping list.

[tawneybuilt]

This thred is sweet, very well done!
Ive ben reserching the same type of conversion, from what I can tell from the toyota/lexus repair manuals specs, all A340's have the same gear ratios and they where used in trucks, 4runners, t-100s, supras, previas, ... basicaly anything thats front engine/rear wheel drive, both 2x and 4x, The major difference is the number of clutch discs used for the gears. The A340 used behind a 22re has very few clutch discs because less torque is being used, 1uz-fe has much more torqe and needs more holding power so more discs are used. The other significant difference is the reduction ratio used in the torque converter, every modle/engine type is different. The ratios can very from 1.6-1 up to 2.2-1. This ratio is similar to a stall speed spec but Im not how to translate it. I would think that for rock crawling a higher ratio would be more ideal.
Keep the info coming-this is cool! 

[cebby]

Guess it's time to get to work...



MC07 lucky number 2554. 

[cebby]

Got to get my hands on it for a little while tonight.  Started tearing into one of the two gear drive cases I'll be using.

Easy as pie so far...

The victim:


Hmmmm....greasey:






Halfway there....

[Uncle Jesse]

On those speed sensors, it should just depend on whether the ecu that you will use is looking for an input speed signal, or an ouput speed signal, or both.  Some trannies use both as a means of self diagnosing that it is in the correct gear, or to see if anything is slipping.  An input signal could be used to interpret torque convertor operation, when comparing to engine speed.  Just an output speed sensor alone could just be used as a vehicle speed signal.

[cebby]

On those speed sensors, it should just depend on whether the ecu that you will use is looking for an input speed signal, or an ouput speed signal, or both.  Some trannies use both as a means of self diagnosing that it is in the correct gear, or to see if anything is slipping.  An input signal could be used to interpret torque convertor operation, when comparing to engine speed.  Just an output speed sensor alone could just be used as a vehicle speed signal.

Thanks for the tech Jesse - much appreciated.      That should help take some of the guess work out of this.

[cebby]

I was photographing everything which was eating up too much time.  Marlin's dismantle and assembly instructions are SO DAMN GOOD there is really no reason to document it.  You can find their instructions here:

http://www.marlincrawler.com/docs/470install/470install_2.html

OK, last night was maybe 1/4 of the way there as I found out tonight.   





Barely fits in the bucket...


I'm going to use a parts cleaner on everything, that's why I bagged and packed it up.

Pretty easy dismantle.  Only one casualty (OK, actually 3) - one of the alllen head detent screws would not budge.  I ended up stripping out the head of it with the 6mm allen, so I hammered a 1/4" allen into it and got it out.    The other two parts were 2 of the thick snap rings on the shafts - these things are almost impossible to get them off without bending them.  The expletives were flying.     


Hmmm.....Case #2.......deja vu....

[cebby]

Got the "custom" coupler back from Marlin.  The flash washed it out a bit, but basically it is an expansion plug (Dorman 555-120) epoxied into the coupler.









Looks like it should solve the leaking! 

[cebby]

Wahoo!  Finally got a little time this evening to start moving some of my crap down to the raceshop.

Here's my new little corner of the world:


I made up these shop lights out of some office furniture uplighting - made 2 setups like this.  There are wheels underneath to roll them around.


Here it is in all its glory:


I think I'll replace the starter contacts NOW.  I'd rather not have to pull the intake to do it later...


How about that new avatar...

[cebby]

A few general questions for everyone:

1.  I bought an engine stand.  I've never used one.  Do I bolt this to the engine where the bellhousing normally bolts up?  Newbie question I know...

2.  Anyone who has pulled this motor, what sizes of sockets/wrenches are needed?  I don't want to truck every single tool I own down to this shop (it's close by, but I'd need to lock up and set the alarm every time I run out, etc.)

3.  I know I'll be splicing some wires.  I want to get a few spools and was wondering what guage would be a suitable all around wire for hooking stuff up.  It will most likely just be computer control stuff mostly.  Anything thick, I'll get something specific to that app.  For the general stuff, should I go 18 ga or 16ga?

[Uncle Jesse]

Yes, just bolt the engine stand to the block bellhousing holes.

Toyota usually uses even sized metric bolts, so 10, 12 . . .and so on.

I would say that 18 gauge multistrand would be fine.  You may want to pick up a couple different colors, so not everything you splice has a red wire in it.  I just bought 100' spools online.  I knew that I would eventually use it, and it's nice to have good quality wire in longer lengths when you need it.  I bought mine online:

http://www.allelectronics.com/matrix/Hook_Up_100.html

It seems they have changed brands since I bought mine, but I have bought a few things from this site and have been happy with the quality.

I would also recommend getting some good quality shrink tubing.  Don't go and wrap everthing in tape, as tape will heat up and peel off.  The best shrink tubing is the adhesive lined kind, as it waterproofs as you shrink it.  If you are planning on using crimp connectors, they do sell "Extreme" connectors that are shrinkable with an adhesive lining as well(I bought mine at Orchard Supply Hardware).  If you go this route, make sure you have a good quality crimper.  After you are all done wiring, either put the wire back in the factory loom or add some split loom conduit to clean up the wiring and protect it from chafing and what not.

On a general note for an engine swap, check out this thread.  Lot of good pictures and specs.  http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=11982.0

[cebby]

Thanks Jesse!  I've been following Rick's thread.  He sure makes it look easy - I know it isn't though...

Decided to tear into the ol' girl a bit...



Got the hood, corner markers, turn signals, grille, headlights, battery, and AFM/K&N FIPK removed.


Here's a pic of the 1UZ motor mount.  Not sure how it will work with the 3VZ mounts, I guess the 3VZ mount bolts directly to the block - need the other motor out first to verify...




Now to figure out what is missing from the motor.  I'm wondering what this is right in the middle with the non-grooved 4 spoke pulley.  The connections look like PS pump fittings....hmmmm.




AC pump and Alt go somewhere on here - either on the left...



or on the right....

 

I'd bet the 2UZ (4.7's) have the accessories in the same place as the 1UZ - Hmmmm......

[cebby]

I received a Tundra bellhousing, oil pump, output shaft, and tailhousing today.   I have a Tundra torque converter coming next week.  Between the parts I have with the exception of the input shaft, I have two complete but diffferent approaches to automatic options for this engine coupled to a gear driven case (or two )

Opt. 1 - 3rd Gen 4Runner A340F - modified by changing input shaft, oil pump, and bellhousing to items compatible with 1UZ (could be either LS400 trans parts or Tundra/Seq/LC trans parts).  Transfer case pulled (wrong side drop) so gear drive case can be used (with Marlin adapter)

Opt. 2 - LS400 Trans A341E - modified by changing output shaft and tailhousing (I'm using Tundra trans parts, but A340F parts could be used also).  Gear drive case can be used (with Marlin adapter)

If a crawler isn't wanted/needed, T100's came with A340F trannies and removable chain drive t-cases with the correct side drop for 2nd Gen 4Runners.

Here's the Tundra parts I got today:



I haven't bolted these parts up yet, but after looking at them closely, it appears that the Tundra parts are interchangable along with the other stuff I've compiled.

[cebby]

I did some work from 11-2 last night, but forgot to bring my camera  so no progress pics. Here's the list...

- 3VZE ECU pulled and the harness pulled into the engine bay from the interior
- Removed the ADD solenoids and related vac hoses
- Removed the misc solenoids and vac hoses from the pass side fender
- Removed the coil and related wiring
- Unhooked the Alt wiring
- Unhooked various ground wires from the block

I need to pickup a large pan to drain some fluids before I can pull the rad, PS hoses, etc. I've never actually drained a cooling system before and not reused the coolant - what is the proper way to dispose of it?

Took some qualiity time looking at the rad and available space. The Tundra rad will not fit. In going to a wider rad, it will need to sit on top of the framerails. This limits my height to about 20" max (if I want my hood to close). My best guess is that a rad 19-20"h x 28"w is going to be the easiest to fit. The stock rad is roughly 22"w x 22"h (slips down betweeen the frame rails slightly and extends above the core support - fits the stock hood bulge in the center.

I have relatives arriving today and staying until Wed next week - probably not a whole lot happening between now and then. At least I'll have a hand for getting the trannies down to the shop...

[cebby]

TOPIC:  COOLING!!

I found through some research that a LS400 radiator just might be the ticket.

Dims:  1.5"th x 16"h x 33"w 

OK, so how you ask?  Here's the plan.  With the relatively short height of the LS rad, I can remove the AC condensor from the core support and widen the opening.  The rad will sit ABOVE the frame rails roughly where the condensor was and be the first thing to get air.  I will mount the condensor behind the rad.  Dual 16" electric pusher fans will go in front of everything and should fit behind an unmodified grille.

Not alot of room to work with:



Excuse the crude "sketch"



I'm thinking some sort of shroud for the pusher fans - not sure what yet.  As far as fans, I'm thinking maybe this fan:



Permacool PRM-19115, 16" reversible.  Moves 2950 CFM!!  $110 ea.

The trans will use the rad for initial cooling and then go through an aux cooler (or two) to keep it nice and cool. Keep in mind, I'll have a dual ultimate crawler also...

[Uncle Jesse]

With the condenser behind the radiator you might get a loss in a/c cooling performance.  This would be from the hot radiator air getting pushed through the condenser, that trying to transfer heat to the air from the refrigerant.  The better the cool airflow through the condenser, the better efficiency of the a/c.

You would definitly need to use some sort of shroud on your fans, especially using an electrically drive flex fan.  I think it would be simpler to find some normal (black plastic looking heheh) that already have some sort of shrouding built into them.  They make them pretty thin these days.

[cebby]

Jesse - someone on another board recommended against using the flex fans because they eventually fatigue and the blades come flying off.  He had this happen to him.  Black plastic should work fine - they move almost as much air.  I found this one:



Flex-a-lite FLX-398, $119 ea.  2500 CFM, 17a  Comes with a shroud.  i will use 2 of these side by side.  It's 4" thick though...

Thanks for the info on the AC condensor.  I know very little about AC.  How far away do you think I can relocate the AC condensor from the pump?  I'm wondering if I can find a different size/shape condensor that would fit elsewhere.  Have you ever heard of running two smaller condensors? (maybe flanking the radiator??)

EDIT:  I've found some others that are a little thinner, so this may work out afterall...

Regarding the AC, since the fan on the condensor only covers maybe a 3rd of it, could I get away without it and just use the condensor?

[cebby]

OK, here's a few more pics of the dismantling from the other night.  I had an extra set of hands last night, so we took the trannies down to the shop.











I want to get the coolant and oil drained out of everything next.  Here's some more shots of the core suppport/rad/AC condensor for reference as I breakout the sawsall!









Currently, the radator and electric fan extend 6" from the core support toward the engine:



Then the core support and AC fan take up another 4"