Am I an IDIOT?

[booger36]

Hows it going everyone? I'm new to the toyota 4x4 scene so please go easy on me. I have a 1988 Toyota Pickup with dual transfer cases and granny low gears. Now, heres my problem.....everytime I try and put the truck in 4wd high, the transfer case shifter gets jammed (no noise or grinding) and the truck gets stuck in the "N" position (truck is a 5 speed, but even if I put it in 1st gear and let the clutch out, it goes no where).
  Here is what I usually do; so I've stopped the truck, put it in neutral, and then i pull the transfer case shifter into 4WD High and thats where it gets jammed and I can't move the transfer case shifter.
  having said all that, this is when I have to pull the shifter off and go in there with a screwdriver and put the slots (whatever you call those lol) back in the correct alignment so I can drive the truck again. They always slide back into place with a screwdriver, and I've done this with the hubs locked, and unlocked..... sometimes the transfer case shifter works without any problems, and sometimes it doesn't work at all.
  I've been searching and searching on here and one of the only things that I have come across are those little spring things that marlin crawler makes for your transfer case shifter.
  Truck history: the guy I bought it from had a rear transfer case purchased brand new, and the front was rebuilt. The truck has sat for a while before I ended up buying up. idk anything else about it.

Any info you guys can give me will help me out. Posting was my last resort.
thanks in advance

[PhantomD aka Zach]

Sounds like the Detent for the shifter was removed (to allow Twin Sticks)  If this is removed and not using dual shifters then it can cause some weird problems.

Here is Marlins instructions,
http://www.marlincrawler.com/tech/guide/twin-stick-installation

here is a good one on 4x4wire
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/twin_stick/

however I have found that trail gears (GASP!) instructions are usually more thorough.

[booger36]

Sounds like the Detent for the shifter was removed (to allow Twin Sticks)  If this is removed and not using dual shifters then it can cause some weird problems.

Here is Marlins instructions,
http://www.marlincrawler.com/tech/guide/twin-stick-installation

here is a good one on 4x4wire
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/twin_stick/

however I have found that trail gears (GASP!) instructions are usually more thorough.

Thanks for the post. My shifter doesn't look anything like that. check it out...

[tgmaul88]

there is a gasket that goes between that shifter, I have a few of theose shifters and seen some have a different bend to them, idnk im not sure, but if its a dual t case wheres the other set of gears? or shifter

[booger36]

there is a gasket that goes between that shifter, I have a few of theose shifters and seen some have a different bend to them, idnk im not sure, but if its a dual t case wheres the other set of gears? or shifter

Ohh the other shifter (high/low) is the short middle one. The guy I bought the truck off of cut the top so the shifter itself wasn't long. The high low works perfect, its the other one closest to the back of the truck.

[H8PVMNT]

I had a 4.7 case bought new from Marlin that did the same thing. He had me ship it back and he had me a new one that worked in like 2 days.  I'm not sure what the problem was...

[booger36]

I had a 4.7 case bought new from Marlin that did the same thing. He had me ship it back and he had me a new one that worked in like 2 days.  I'm not sure what the problem was...

Yeah I hear that. I wonder what it was. My problem is that I might have to buy a new one if I can't figure it out haha. I'm trying to do all my research before I make a drastic decision like that. I'm not sure what these transfer case shifters are supposed to look like, but I know this one is bent and I wonder if that's a contributing factor? 

[BigMike]

everytime I try and put the truck in 4wd high, the transfer case shifter gets jammed (no noise or grinding) and the truck gets stuck in the "N" position

Hello booger36, you've come to the right place to get to the bottom of this. We need some more info to get this solved:

With it jammed in Neutral, are you also able to readily select between 4WD and 2WD? If so, then your transfer case was assembled without the shift rail interlock pin, as mentioned by PhantomD. Normally this isn't a bad thing, but for your condition as described it is its almost certain that the H-N-L 0.50" detent ball, or shift spring, or both are missing, or the spring is broken (both from the drive's side of the transfer case). To check this you'll need a 6mm Allen wrench or socket, and remove the bolt opposite what's shown in this picture (this is the passenger's side bolt but I'd like you to check the driver's side):


The detent ball & spring limit the H-N-L rail to three distinct positions. Without this, the rail is free to move on its own, and without the interlock pin, it could easily move into Neutral which moves its shifter head out of alignment with your shift handle resulting in the condition you've described.

An additional question I have is are you able to engage low range in the Crawl Box when the transfer case is in high range?

Thanks
Mike

[BigMike]

If missing, we offer the parts in question:

Our famous Heavy Duty Shift Spring (been selling these since 1995):
http://www.marlincrawler.com/hardware-tools/hardware/heavy-duty-shift-spring


And a Toyota 0.50" Detent Ball:
http://www.marlincrawler.com/hardware-tools/hardware/transfer-case-detent-ball

[booger36]

Big Mike. Thanks for that info. I called up MarlinCrawler and ordered myself two of the springs, but I had no idea about the detent ball. I will have to go and check if I have that ball tonight.
As far as ur question goes, once the transfer case 4WD/2WD H N L shifter gets stuck, I CAN still operate and move the middle shifter High Low in and out a long with the 5 speed. The only thing that's stuck is the 2/4WD  H N L shifter. Idk if that helps or if I made it more confusing haha

[PhantomD aka Zach]

You should be able to buy a similarly sized ball from a good hardware store (lowes or home depot will not carry them)   I am betting on the interlock pin being removed. The transfer cases are built very well and unless you have catastrophic bearing or housing issues I doubt you will need to replace the case. If you are mechanically inclined and you remove the case to inspect, you should be able to see the problem pretty easily (you need a beefy lock ring plier to do it, NOT a snap ring plier)

Just re-read big mikes thread and realized he posted the easier process to check this:
It's been awhile since I have torn one of these cases down, but I think an easy way to test to see if the pin is there is to see if you can put the shift rails in ANY position (have a friend slowly rotate the shaft back and forth to allow the gears to mesh) if you can do this, then you are missing the pin... so you need to replace it, or buy a set of twin sticks.

to test the positions I would place the left rail (high/low) all the way foreword and see if you have full movement in the right rail (4wd,Neutral,2wd), then move the left rail back and repeat. If both forks have the ability to be in any position independent of the other, then there is your problem, remember you might need to move the driveline a bit to get the gears to mesh properly (you should be able to have a friend manually rotate the driveshaft back and forth to do this)


If this is not the problem, I would guess that the shift collar is broken, but that seems unlikely, as it would be loud and crunchy.

I am curious to see what the issue ends up being.

[booger36]

BigMike,

I finally got around to taking off the 6mm screw. I managed to pull out the spring. It appeared to be "ok," so I just put it off to the side.
  Now, how would one pull out, view, or check to see if I have the detent ball?

Here are some pictures that I took today.

This is where I pulled the 6mm Allen from.......



Why are there two 6mm Allen's on each side? I pulled the one from the driver side...is there another one I should check on the passenger side?



Heres the spring with the 6mm Allen



I'm not sure if I accomplished anything, but now we know that the transfer case DID have a spring lol. I'll wait for your guy's response to see where I should go next. Should I assume that the passenger side would have a spring too (picture with both my fingers touching the 6mm Allen's...one on driver side and other on passenger side)!?

[PhantomD aka Zach]

The detent ball should be behind the spring, However I think the issue is the interlock pin, which can only be removed with the transfer case removed from the vehicle and the shift shaft removed. A good way to see how this is done, is to find an install manual for a set of twin sticks, it will walk you through the process.

However, follow the process that big mike mentioned to check the mechanical operation, if you are capable of performing those changes then you are missing the interlock pin. I do remember that particular detail being very well designed when I did my twin stick install.

if you end up needing an interlock pin, I think I have a couple in my parts bin.

[BigMike]

Now, how would one pull out, view, or check to see if I have the detent ball?

...is there another one I should check on the passenger side?

Thank you for the continued excellent pictures. Yes, the design is the same for passenger's side, however missing components from that side would result in your case popping out of 4WD or 2WD or both.

To check for the detent ball, the best way short of rolling your truck over on its side is to insert an extendable pocket-type magnet into the hole as the detent ball is ferrous.

Once you remove the ball, or find the ball missing, or are unable to remove the ball, insert a flat-head screw driver into the hole so that it bottoms out inside. Then while maintaining pressure on the screwdriver into the hole, shift between High-Neutral-Low and note what you feel at the screwdriver handle: If the ball is in there then you'll notice the screwdriver gently moving in and out three times, once for each shift position. If the ball is missing, then the flat-head profile of the screwdriver will get partially lodged in each of the three notches of the shift rail, to the extent that if you are pressing hard enough with the screwdriver you'd be able to make it very difficult to change gears. Which leads us to this important step and possibly the cause: If you do not feel the screwdriver moving three times, then your H-N-L shift rail was installed 180-degrees off.

However I think the issue is the interlock pin

Actually the symptom booger36 has described is unrelated to the interlock pin:

everytime I try and put the truck in 4wd high, the transfer case shifter gets jammed (no noise or grinding) and the truck gets stuck in the "N" position

If the 2WD/4WD shift rail is in the 4WD position, then the H-N-L shift rail is able to move by design. The interlock pin only prevents the H-N-L shift rail from moving when the 2WD/4WD shift rail is in the 2WD position.

For this very reason, my first question to booger36 which remains unanswered was:

With it jammed in Neutral, are you also able to readily select between 4WD and 2WD?

This will tell us right away if the interlock pin is missing. A follow-up question to this that may provide insight is if the issue occurs when shifting from 2WD-High into 4WD-High OR from 4WD-Neutral into 4WD-High OR both.

In opposition to the missing interlock pin, customers often request transfer cases to be built without the interlock pin to fulfill future plans of twin sticks. Often times however the t/case is used for many miles before the customer is able to purchase and install the twin stick, and it has never been reported to have caused a gear jam. The detent ball and spring are what position and hold each rail in their respective gear. Therefore, when a OEM shifter is used without the interlock pin, the only way for the shifter to get jammed in the wrong gear (neutral for instance) would be from a sudden jerk: Someone rear ends your truck on the motorway or you accidentally drive into a brick wall.

Unrelated to the interlock pin, I did consider what could possibly happen if shifting very slowly from 4WD-Neutral into 4WD-High while maintaining pressure on the shift handle towards the driver. This could possibly cause the H-N-L shift rail to float between H and N (with oil tension and vehicle acceleration determining which notch on the shift rail the detent ball chooses), however this would only be possible if the finger at the end of the shift handle was so extremely worn thin that it was on the brink of shearing off. The stock tolerances within the shifter head, fork, and the finger at the end of the shift handle would normally not allow this to happen.

However, follow the process that big mike mentioned to check the mechanical operation, if you are capable of performing those changes then you are missing the interlock pin.

booger36, regardless of the outcome, I think it would be good to know the answer to this:

With it jammed in Neutral, are you also able to readily select between 4WD and 2WD? If so, then your transfer case was assembled without the shift rail interlock pin, as mentioned by PhantomD.

Please also report back the results from the screwdriver test above.

Regards,
BigMike

[BigMike]

Note: I edited my above post after submitting it with what I believe may be the cause.

[booger36]

BigMike.

Here's what happens when it gifts jammed.

  I'm stopped and pulled the 2wd and 4wd selector straight back into 4wd high....and that's when it gets jammed. I don't pull or touch anything else and I can't move the transfer case shifter at all. It WONT move at all in or out of 2wd or 4wd. Completely stuck/jammed. I then try and put my 5 speed transmission into 1st gear and the engine just revs as if the truck is in its neutral position. I think I answered ur question.

[PhantomD aka Zach]

But you are able to remove the shifter and use a screwdriver to move the fork?

are you sure that when you install the shifter, its seating properly?
I have installed my shifter so that the shifter stick does not sit between the two teeth of the fork, and when I try and shift it it will only go one way... but it's obviously wrong and gets all floppy.

[booger36]

But you are able to remove the shifter and use a screwdriver to move the fork?

are you sure that when you install the shifter, its seating properly?
I have installed my shifter so that the shifter stick does not sit between the two teeth of the fork, and when I try and shift it it will only go one way... but it's obviously wrong and gets all floppy.

Hi, after it gets stuck, I remove the shifter and the forks will move with a screw driver. Thats usually how I align the forks (screwdriver) up so I can drive my truck again. When I put the shifter back in place, I can tell that it seated correctly because "sometimes" the entire transfercase mechanism will work like its supposed to, and sometimes it gets jammed up. I would say 4 out of 10 times it gets jammed. I purchased two shifter springs and two detent balls from Marlin Crawler and I plan on dropping the case this weekend. I'll keep you guys posted on whats going on.

Thanks again for all your help fella's 

[booger36]

Alright guys, a little update.

Today I dropped out the transfercase and pulled out the detent balls on both sides, springs, and changed out the interlock pins. I managed to get it all installed today and had a chance to test it out. At first, the shifter appeared to work and I could place the truck in 2wd then 4wd high, and finally 4wd low....but after going in and out a few times, the shifter got jammed and the passenger side fork somehow went into the "N" position not allowing me to shift or even move the vehicle. Im stumped





old springs/detent

[PhantomD aka Zach]

sometimes the gears wont mesh perfectly causing it to stick, does it get un-stuck if you rotate one of the output flanges? (assuming you are testing this with the case on the floor)

also those unsupported bearings can cause some binding too.

I hope big mike has some more insight because I would be stumped.

[Rocksurfer]

In a Samurai tcase the shifter seat will wear out and allow the shifter to move both rails at the same time. It causes the exact issue that you are having. You have to pull the shifter and manually move the rails with a long screwdriver. Toyota's shifter is different but I would imagine that if something is bent like the end of the shifter or the mounting is loose or worn out it could allow you to try to move both rails at the same time. That will jam the rails.

[booger36]

In a Samurai tcase the shifter seat will wear out and allow the shifter to move both rails at the same time. It causes the exact issue that you are having. You have to pull the shifter and manually move the rails with a long screwdriver. Toyota's shifter is different but I would imagine that if something is bent like the end of the shifter or the mounting is loose or worn out it could allow you to try to move both rails at the same time. That will jam the rails.

I think thats exactly whats happening. Once its jammed, i pull off the shifter and manually move the rails with a screwdriver. I've been looking at Marlin Crawlers twin stack kit. But I'm not exactly sure which kit i need. I see that Marlin crawler sells 5 of them. I know that 2 of those are for a 6 cylinder, so that leaves me with 3 to choose from lol.  please feel free to chime in a shed some light on my headache 

[PhantomD aka Zach]

There is a foreward shift case and a top shift case (you have a top shift)  there is also a version of his twin sticks that are bent to account for the 10 degree clocked dual case adaptor.


OH, and the top shift shifter does not have a rubber/plastic shifter seat, it's metal on metal if I remember correctly, so it should never wear out.

[Rocksurfer]

Try this:

When shifting from 2wd high to 4wd high physically hold the shifter as far left as possible when changing gears. Did it get stuck or did it shift?

Now continue that motion until you can push it to the right for 4wd low, continue holding it to the right (if you can) and shift into low.

Now reverse those actions making sure that while it is in low you hold it to the right and while in high you hold it to the left.

If it works smoothly then the shifter moved only one rail at a time, at that point Mike may be right (and he would know) that at one time the case may have had twins since you made sure you were only moving one rail at a time.

Now try it without holding it to the left or right and it will probably jam.

Also try and see if you can shift the high/low with a screwdriver while it is in 2wd. I'm not real sure how the twins work but I think you can't shift the high/low while in 2wd unless the shift rail interlock pin is removed. (correct me if I'm wrong)

[PhantomD aka Zach]

Rocksurfer you are correct... it is common practice to always remove the interlock pin with duals, so there might be more caveats then the one you questioned, but at least that should be true.

[Rocksurfer]

The bottom of page 4 and most of page 5 on this thread discuss the interlock pin, where it is and how to remove it.

http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=89180.90

[Rocksurfer]

Rocksurfer you are correct... it is common practice to always remove the interlock pin with duals, so there might be more caveats then the one you questioned, but at least that should be true.

I would imagine then, that with a sloppy/worn shifter you could possibly shift both rails at the same time jamming them.

[PhantomD aka Zach]

I hope Big Mike comes in with some prior experience, but I dont think it's a worn shifter, at this point I would guess there is either a ton of crap in the shift rails (the pictures show that there is a ton of dirt and shavings in the case) or that the shift collar has issues (broken teeth, etc)

[booger36]

Try this:

When shifting from 2wd high to 4wd high physically hold the shifter as far left as possible when changing gears. Did it get stuck or did it shift?

Now continue that motion until you can push it to the right for 4wd low, continue holding it to the right (if you can) and shift into low.

Now reverse those actions making sure that while it is in low you hold it to the right and while in high you hold it to the left.

If it works smoothly then the shifter moved only one rail at a time, at that point Mike may be right (and he would know) that at one time the case may have had twins since you made sure you were only moving one rail at a time.

Now try it without holding it to the left or right and it will probably jam.

Also try and see if you can shift the high/low with a screwdriver while it is in 2wd. I'm not real sure how the twins work but I think you can't shift the high/low while in 2wd unless the shift rail interlock pin is removed. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Alright guys, I finally figured it out. I took your advise before I was gonna rip out the transfer case again and when shifting from 2wd high to 4wd high/4L, I physically held the shifter as far left as possible when changing gears. Then I continued that motion until you can push it to the right for 4wd low, continue holding it to the right as I could and shift into low. After, I reverse those actions making sure that while it is in low, I held the shifter to the right and while in high you hold it to the left. 
  I tried this action about 20 times and it didnt get jammed once. I then tried it the "normal" way (pulling straight back) and thats when it got stuck. The good news is, I know know what caused the jamming, and I can shift into 4h and 4L without any problems. It appears that I have a little bit of play in the shifter, so holding it to each side is necessary for full functionality of the case.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I couldn't have done it without you guys 

[Rocksurfer]

Glad I could help, so now enlighten us so we can understand what was going on.