The Perfect Link Kit?

[crawlerdan]

so- hypothetical situation, if a fellow Marlin Board Member designed a link kit for our type of trucks, what would you like to see?for conversations purposes, lets say that the price differance in hiems vs johnny joints was only 100.00

Johnny Joints, or Hiems, please tell me why

feel free to add any other features that might sway you into purchasing a complete kit

[axled89]

well dan i would like to see strength , not no china steel crap that breaks of course.  and links that are tucked up and out of the way as much as possible.   other than that i don't know much of a differance in jonny joints and heim joints so that is my    hope that helps.

[pumkin toy]

I think i would rather see jonny joints than heim joints because they are rebuildable

[TacoRunner]

I vote Hiems they are way stronger than Johnnies and

http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Johnny-Joint-Assembly-Disassembly-Tool-p-2277.html

[crawlerdan]

maybe the kit could have an option so the end user could choose?

[axled89]

maybe the kit could have an option so the end user could choose?

x2

[TacoRunner]

x3

[pumkin toy]

maybe the kit could have an option so the end user could choose?

thats the best way to do it Dan

[germ]

Adjustable spring rates that would allow for heavier front ends (heavy winch, bumper etc) or lighter for more truggy applications.

Final cost that would make it a reasonable upgrade.

Erik

[87pickup]

I would like to see heims since i rarely hear of a quality 1.25 or 7/8 heim break but cartridge joints seem like their breaking pretty often. But more importantly id like to have the option of a upper control arm on the driver side so us 3rz guys can run it.

[BUDDERS]

I would like the upper link in the rear to be a Y shaped link so we could keep the gas tank in the factory spot.  I'm also thinking a bolt in cantalever setup where the spare tire normally goes to keep everthing under the bed - you could use shorter coilovers with this setup and still get ausome articulation.  I've seen it done on a heep before, but never on a yota.

I agree on the option between Heims and Johnny Joints.  I could see the hardcore wheelers wanting Heims for strength, but for people who have to daily drive their rig they will most likely want Johnny Joints for comfort.

[Jakesteads]

heims get dirty atleast in VA alot of people stayed away from them because of the mud and water out there... now i know out here alot more people run with them... i think it would be good to offer both and let the user decide...

[peacesells]

heims all the way, Ive seen thousands of dollars on the trail due to failed johnny joints. Break a johnny joint - odds are the coilover on that wheel is going to snap/bend.

One of my buddies hit a football sized rock with the pass rear tire, broke that joint, wiped out the other side joint, pinion twisted down, snapped his drive shaft, snapped both 2.5 coilovers, and bent the 2 upper links. the pinion was facing out of the back of the truck when all was done. scary thing was, he was 2 miles away from getting on the highway...

downside to heims- NOISY AS HELLLLLLLLLL

[TacoRunner]

heims all the way, Ive seen thousands of dollars on the trail due to failed johnny joints. Break a johnny joint - odds are the coilover on the wheel is going to snap/bend.

One of my buddies hit a football sized rock with the pass rear tire, broke that joint, wiped out the other side joint, pinion twisted down, snapped his drive shaft, snapped both 2.5 coilovers, and bent the 2 upper links. the pinion was facing out of the back of the truck when all was done. scary thing was, he was 2 miles away from getting on the highway...

downside to heims- NOISY AS HELLLLLLLLLL

Holy C&%p      that sucks big ones.

[94toytruck]

I would like to see heims since i rarely hear of a quality 1.25 or 7/8 heim break but cartridge joints seem like their breaking pretty often. But more importantly id like to have the option of a upper control arm on the driver side so us 3rz guys can run it.

Front upper link? Mine is on the drivers side with a 22re, minor exhaust work and its all good. No room to get the truck low if you run it on the PS.

Johny joint type joints for the links, heims for the panhard. I have no issue with my JJ type joints and they can be rebuilt with a shop press or balljoint press. You dont need any special tool to do it.

[TacoRunner]

I would like to see heims since i rarely hear of a quality 1.25 or 7/8 heim break but cartridge joints seem like their breaking pretty often. But more importantly id like to have the option of a upper control arm on the driver side so us 3rz guys can run it.

Yep, thats what I had to do to mine.

Front upper link? Mine is on the drivers side with a 22re, minor exhaust work and its all good. No room to get the truck low if you run it on the PS.

How do you figure?

they can be rebuilt with a shop press or balljoint press. You dont need any special tool to do it.

Not everyone has a press so I'd consider that a special tool.

[crawlerdan]

ok- how about more info-


what if?

this kit was designed for the 4runner or pickup that is drivin on the road regularly, driven to the trail, wheeled, and then driven home?

does that change the component desires?

this kit will not be for the "trailer queen", im thinking more-"weekend warrior/poor mans swiss army truck"

[-Matt-]

the reason people use johnny joints is its a ball joint encased in a urethane bushing that absorbs shock, so unless you want to feel every pebble in the road, and have your truck vibrate apart them id go with johnny joints over a hyme joint for the links. as far as them breaking...most likely cuz they were a shity brand. if you bought a genuine johnny joint (45$ a piece) your chances of ever breaking/bending one is extremely small.

as far as style.. 3 link with panhard. if you design it with the perfect dimensions it will perform amazing and ride great. its the most economical way as far as buying a plug and play kit that involvs minor fab work, the cost is minimum, and is vary strong if done right.

you cant beat a triangulated 4link as far as performance/ride/ and strength but that would involve way more changing and fab work, not probable in this application.

3 link wish a wishbone works well but unless you design the wishbone well, and have it braces well then they will break off because theres so much pivot force.

theres all sorts of other styles to but i vote for a 3 link with panhard bar setup with johnny joints for the links, and hymes for the panhard bars.

edit-- one of the beauty's of linked suspension is its pretty much all on dimensions..not as much about weight (thats where the coils/coilovers and different rates come into play. so as long as there was a general tire size/frame height/vehicle its going on, then it would be pretty universal between a runner or truck.

[TacoRunner]

the reason people use johnny joints is its a ball joint encased in a urethane bushing that absorbs shock, so unless you want to feel every pebble in the road, and have your truck vibrate apart them id go with johnny joints over a hyme joint for the links. as far as them breaking...most likely cuz they were a :pokinit:y brand. if you bought a genuine johnny joint (45$ a piece) your chances of ever breaking/bending one is extremely small.

Johnny joints only have half as much misalignment as a heim, so with a Johnny joint you need one at each end of each link, but with a heim you only need one, then you can run a bushing at the other end. Eliminating the harsh ride problem.

johnny joints for the links, and hymes for the panhard bars.

you're the second person to say that, why?

[Steve_925]

if you read any of the KOH competitors build ups most all of them are running heims, a few are running what taco said. heims on one end and bushings on the other

[TacoRunner]

Personally, (other than the soft ride point of view) I've never under stood why people want Johnny joints. I don't think they make any sense. At least not to me. I can buy two Johnnies for $45 each or one heim and one bushing for just a few bucks more than $100. They last longer and are stronger, so why go with Johnnies? If someone was worried about dirt getting in them, like lots of guys on the East Coast are, they you could always do what lots of Baja guys do, and put a rubber on them. Kind of like an off-road condom for joints. (no I'm not joking, I've seen it)

[-Matt-]

ballistic makes a johnny joint that has 70* of deflection. pretty pricey though. and i dont think its possible to just run one joint on a suspension like that?? and if sooo why doesn't everyone do it?

as far as the hyme on panhard.. for strength and since its fairly small it fits good. there might be more to it but thats all i know.

[-Matt-]

and as far as the KOH guys, there strickly a comp rig. im just stating what i think would work best with a streetable truck. i could totally be wrong becasue i haven't personally riden in a truck with hymes instead of johny joint but i would imagine on the road it would be a rough ride. and as far as strength...when has this really been an issue. you can break anything. im not gonna argue that johny joints are stronger cuz they aren't but im just saying most people that invest in a decent johnny joint aren't gonna have to worry about breaking it.

[TacoRunner]

ballistic makes a johnny joint that has 70* of deflection. pretty pricey though. and i dont think its possible to just run one joint on a suspension like that?? and if sooo why doesn't everyone do it?

I have one heim on my lower links and one on the upper, bushings at the other end of both with 16" coilovers, I have absolutly zero bind through the entire range of travel. ZERO! As to why others dont do it, I have no idea. Maybe because most Johnnies dont move that much.

could you provide a link for us please to that joint.

as far as the hyme on panhard.. for strength and since its fairly small it fits good. there might be more to it but thats all i know.

I was hoping that was all, I couldn't think of anyother reason why. 

[-Matt-]

hmm interesting. you may have a good point. the other good thing about that is you wont have your link ends loosen since one is a bushing. i know a lot of people have issues with everything coming loose and their link spining. makes it a little more difficult to adjust, but once you have it dialed it shouldn't be an issue.

how does yours ride on the road? cuz i know personally that would be my biggest issue. id rather sacrifice a little bit of strength for a nicer ride. only because its not vary common for johnnys to break.

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/Billet-Ballistic-Rod-End_p_1655.html

[TacoRunner]

and as far as the KOH guys, there strickly a comp rig. im just stating what i think would work best with a streetable truck. i could totally be wrong becasue i haven't personally riden in a truck with hymes instead of johny joint but i would imagine on the road it would be a rough ride. and as far as strength...when has this really been an issue. you can break anything. im not gonna argue that johny joints are stronger cuz they aren't but im just saying most people that invest in a decent johnny joint aren't gonna have to worry about breaking it.

Well, there have been a few guys here recently that said they were breaking Johnnies.  that's why. I guess my reason why was simply, a Johnny might be strong enough, then again I KNOW the Heim is. I've never seen a Johnny joint come with a load rating, maybe because the manufacturer has never test them, I don't know I'm just saying I've never seen one. But the guys that build the Heims, even the cheap ones all have load ratings. At least I know what I buying. Johnnies are good for what they are, but I personally don't trust them. As for ride quality, I'm sure the Johnnies are a bit soft, they do have urethane in them, and if you got one at each end, that would help. But I'll stick with my Heims.

[TacoRunner]

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/Billet-Ballistic-Rod-End_p_1655.html

Matt,

Sorry dude but thats not a Johnny joint, its a rebuildable Heim. They took the cool part of a Johnny joint (rebuildable) and stuck it with the cool part of a Heim (strength). The only thing I dont like about them is they use grease to lube the joint instead of Teflon. Grease attracts dirt and will cause it to wear faster. And I'd love to see a load rating on it too.

[87pickup]

I think ballistics 3" cartride joint offers alot of misalignment but thats with a 9/16 bolt I would much rather run a quality fk, aurora 1.25 heim on the lowers that still offers alot of misalignment but still uses a 3/4 bolt after high misalignment spacers. Also a quality heim wont rattle or wear out quick. Most heim that wear quick are chinese junk or evem qa1 heims are junk. But it would be better to offer either heims or cartridge joints and lewt the consumer decide but there is alot better cartridge joints out there then johnny joints.

Most importantly i think the geometry needs to be correct. It would be nice to have the option of kits that might not have everything included. Like no shocks in case someone wanted to run air shocks instead of coilovers, or for my i dont want to run lower links that are 5/8 thick, i want to run spidertrax heat treated 4130 links so it would be nice to have the option of no links in kit.

Front upper link? Mine is on the drivers side with a 22re, minor exhaust work and its all good. No room to get the truck low if you run it on the PS.

Johny joint type joints for the links, heims for the panhard. I have no issue with my JJ type joints and they can be rebuilt with a shop press or balljoint press. You dont need any special tool to do it.

Due to my 3rz i cant run my upper control arm on the passenger side due to the exhaust and drivline but most kits like offroad solutions and trail gear's 3 link ( Not that i would ever run it) all are designed to mount the upper on the passenger side.

A

[BUDDERS]

It would be nice to have the axle end of the lower brackets locate on the centering hole on the spring perches somehow to take the guess work out of where to weld them.  I don't know how you would locate the upper link brackets on the axle, but there has got to be an easy way

[-Matt-]

Matt,

Sorry dude but thats not a Johnny joint, its a rebuildable Heim. They took the cool part of a Johnny joint (rebuildable) and stuck it with the cool part of a Heim (strength). The only thing I dont like about them is they use grease to lube the joint instead of Teflon. Grease attracts dirt and will cause it to wear faster. And I'd love to see a load rating on it too.

ya your right, didn't read all the specs on it. either way its kind of a hybrid in between both.