Topic: INFO FROM BUDBUILT!

[UNBREAKABLE]

I talked to a friend of mine who works with Bud...Bud HAS completed 2(two) Dual transmission adapters. I am gonna talk to Bud about getting one from him(now I don't have to make an adapter)..

[lowgeared]

Please clarify.  What are you talking about?

[Prismo]

Adapter to join 2 Toyota trannys together

[84toy]

 I've been following the thread over at the PBB,I'm interested as well,but more so to see if they will hold up.

[BigMike]

I wonder if that's longer than tripple cases..

If a stock tranny had a 24:1 first gear, then I would use it 

[BigMike]

I've been following the thread over at the PBB,I'm interested as well,but more so to see if they will hold up.

Ya got a direct link for that one?

[csudman]

Heres the DIY version I'm doing. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301670&page=3

Heres the origanl thread.  Buds is at the end.  http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132841&highlight=csudman

[BigMike]

Thanks mang 

[BigMike]

Hey csudman,

I was thinking about the torque loads on the trans and then I saw it mentioned on the pirates as well so I thought I would bring it up.

22R-E: 3.95 x 112 hp & 142 tq = 442 HP & 561 TQ
22R: 3.93 x 96 hp & 129 tq = 377 HP & 507 TQ

I really dont think I would run a L- or G- or W-series trans behind a 500 ft-lb V8 engine!!!!!!!!

Im really courious to see how the trans hold up. Please keep us updated!!!

[Marketing]

It's not secret, or even anything new, Marlin says he saw this done years ago.

Why is Marlin Crawler not making such an adapter? The answer is a combination of extra weight, length and shifter issues. A dual case is a much more elegant solution. A transfer case crawl box adds just 40 lbs (including adapter) and is only 6.5" long. A transmission is 100-115 lbs and is well over twice as long as a crawl box. This extra size would require a much larger and heavier crossmember to cover the rear transmission and relocated transfer case. Shifting lever position is going to be a nightmare, with the transfer case shifter much further back. The shorter rear drive shaft on lifted application is going to require a higher angle rear CV shaft. Rotating the rear pinion up that high may cause oil starvation on the pinion. Not rotating the rear pinion as far will cause driver shaft vibration. In jeeps a rear high pinion diff is used to overcome short drive shafts but we already know the Toyota high pinion diff will not work in the rear.

[GrimReaper]

W and Ls gan be smoked easy. I don't see then taking tripple the power. It will work but its going to bust shafts either between the trannys or snap off the shaft for the case. Front bearing in the second tranny is not going to be long for the world.

 GM crows has done tranny stacking in the past. Stack two SM465s with 6.55 granny and you can break NP 205s pretty easy.  One guy put a SM465 behind a TH350 auto. the auto kept the shock load down but there was over 500lb of transmissions and cases and cross members. It broke two TH 350 Bell housings last I heard. Have not heard if they kept trying to run it.

[BigMike]

You know what's gonna go first in the 2nd tranny, the input gear, it's tiny and strips out all the time.

[lowgeared]

Two manual transmissions together sounds corny.  Why not stack three or four crawl boxes together?  Or an auto with a manual if you want to get real groovy-I've seen this.  I have never not made it at 100:1 and would have been able to make it at 100.94847473:1.  Just seems like splitting so many gears is worthless??      

[kyle_22r]

i saw somewhere on the internet a CJ3 jeep running a 22R mated to an L43 tranny, which had a T90 stacked behind it, and a dana 18 behind that.  had close to a 200:1 crawl ratio with both trannies in reverse.

the L43 would be the perfect transmission for this setup if it wasn't so weak.  if you take the bellhousing and tailhousing off, it's only about 8" long

[79coyotefrg]

would be ok if you put the 43 in front

[cgbemis]

Why not stack three or four crawl boxes together?

Because then you'd need to buy 2 or 3 adapters. Alot of people are doing this swap because it is different, (by some logic) seems to be cheaper, gives you more options for gear ratios, and they have the space to do it in (extra cabs, or long beds). I personally don't like  the idea, because it sounds kind of red neck to me. No offense to those who are interested in the idea, but dual cases and a single tranny makes sence, works well, is relatively light weight, has a relatively compact design, etc. Two tranny's is long, heavy, not necessarily cheaper, and all around bulky. I'll stick with dual cases.

[csudman]

Hey csudman,

I was thinking about the torque loads on the trans and then I saw it mentioned on the pirates as well so I thought I would bring it up.

22R-E: 3.95 x 112 hp & 142 tq = 442 HP & 561 TQ
22R: 3.93 x 96 hp & 129 tq = 377 HP & 507 TQ

I really dont think I would run a L- or G- or W-series trans behind a 500 ft-lb V8 engine!!!!!!!!

Im really courious to see how the trans hold up. Please keep us updated!!!

I honestly don't know if it will work yet or not.  But I've only got 100.00 in my 2nd tranny so I see no reason not to do it. 

[csudman]

EDIT: Hey guys this is BigMike......

Im sorry I just wrote over csudman's post which was very informative and included some really great questions regarding this idea of dual transmissions.

I've sent the following PM to csudman:

Hey dude Im really sorry but I accidently hit the modify button on your post instead of mine and I posted my words onto your post and completely lost your post.

Im really sorry as your post was a great contributor to this topic.

Sorry
BigMiike

csudman had mentioned some really great points... I'll try to rememer as much as I can

1) The weight of the trans isnt so heavy, only around 60 lbs.

2) He measured the distance, and the tcase shift lever will come up near the seat belt mounts so its right next to his hip and in a nice location for shifting.

3) He will need to make two custom crossmembers to support the load at two spots.

4) He has not considered the angle of the drivelines but he really isnt too concerned about it. The lengths of his lines are 30" and 36" so it should be ok

5) Since he is making his own custom adapter, he can clock it at the same time and have a nice flat belly with the dual transmission setup.


These are all that I can remember, and again I am very sorry csudman for over writing your post here. I hope you can reply back here for some more feedback and information, and also to let us know how everything is going with your project.

Regards
BigMike Forum Adamin

[BigMike]

Actually a transmission is more around 75 lbs which is about the same as two dual case Crawl Boxes (40+40) which are 13" long combined and would yield a compound ratio of 11.85:1 with stock gearing. So dual trans is a bit lower at 15.6:1, but that is their full potiential. tripple cases can yield 103.8:1  with 4.70:1 gearing, or if your crazy and like to replace parts, 122.8:1 with the A/A 4.97:1 modified 4.70:1 gearset.

With your 5.66:1 diff, the dual trans will give ya 201.3:1.
With dual cases ya got 116.2:1.
With a Dual case Ultimate (2.28 and 4.7) ya got 239.6:1.
With a stock tripple tcase, which is a bit shorter than dual trans, ya got 265:1.
With an all out 4.70:1 tripple tcase ya got 2,321.2:1

Tossing these ratios around is cool, but the problem is that a t/case is proven to hold up to torque loads much much much much much greater than transmissions....in fact so far up to 12.7 times more torque.

With a carburated 22R, 129 ft-lbs tq. With an ultimate, that's 42.3:1 entering the output shaft of the transfercase which amounts to 5,460 ft-lbs of torque in a perfect physical condition (using a physics setup) (ignoring all frictional [static and kinetic] and rotational [moment of inertia] loses).
With an EFI 22R-E, ya got 135 ft-lbs putting 5,714 ft-lbs on the output shaft of the t/case in an Ultimate.
With a 3.4l Supercharged engine, what maybe 250 ft-lbs torque? If so that's 10,582 ft-lbs at the output shaft of the t/case behind a Ultimate.
Futhuremore, Marlin's tripple Crawler with two sets of 4.70:1 yields a 198.9:1 ratio in front of the output shaft in his transfercase, and he's had this installed and operating since '97 I believe and he has yet to break an output shaft. At this rating, if his engine is putting out even 120 ft lbs of torque, then that's no-joke 23,873 ft-lbs of torque entering his output shaft.

Now as for the G-series transmission, the maximum amount of torque it sees is with a really fixed up carburated engine, let's be modest and say that some caburated engine is developing 170 ft-lbs of torque, then that's simply 170 ft-lbs of torque entering the transmission.
As for the W-series transmission, the strongest engine ever built in front of it is the 3RZ-FE which is 177 ft-lbs stock, but still, that is only 177 ft-lbs of torque entering it as remember it is the first item in line behind the engine.

So even if you had a 3RZ Tacoma engine, the most torque the W-series trans is gonna see if LESS THAN 200 ft-lbs. Even if you want to take two R-series transmissions from either a Turbo 22R-TE or a 3.0/3.4L V6, the most amount of power it's gonna see is no more than 250 or 300 ft-lbs of torque if you've got a TRD Supercharger on a well-built 3.4l or you have a 3rd gen Supra with a 7MG-TE single turbo engine infront of a 2WD R-series transmission, those engines also are only around 300 ft-lbs of torque (269 stock). Sure you can build a Monster Turbo 7M-GTE Supra engine and bust out over 500 ft-lbs if you wanted to, or even a 1,000 ft-lbs torque V8 Supercharged engine -- it's still only 1,000 ft-lbs of torque entering the front of the W-series or G-series or R-series or whatever-series transmission!!

And next you want to multiply that by a first transmission at a rate of 3.95:1, now you are stacking 3,950 ft-lbs of torque into the 2nd transmission with a Supercharged V8 engine! This is crazy!!!!!!!!!!! And yet this is still less than what a transfercase is holding up to with mearly a carburated 4 banger engine at 5,460 ft-lbs.

So its like asking an engineer what he thinks will last longer:
-- A Supercharged 454 V8 cranking out 1,000 tq with dual W56 transmissions (3,950 ft-lbs at the front of the 2nd transmission)
-- A transfercase behind a carburated 22R with an Ultimate Crawler (5,460 ft-lbs at the front of the output shaft in the transfercase)

Seem's like this is all just a joke, doesnt it? In fact with a stock transfercase behind the 2nd transmission of the SC V8, its still only gonna see 9,006 ft-lbs of torque at the output shaft. This is yet 1,576 ft-lbs tq LESS than what the same t/case is getting with a Supercharged 3.4 V6 and even 14,867 ft-lbs tq LESS that what Marlin is doing to his transfercase.

And you know what, you might think that dumping the clutch on a Supercharged big block 454 V8 is going to waste transfercases faster than Marlin's old 20/22R hybrid engine with his tripple cases BUT IT IS NOT. I dont care if you consider the greater moving weight of the V8 engine, IT IS OVER 14,000 ft-lbs of torque LESS! Can you imaging what 14,000 ft-lbs of torque would be like!! What if a 20R engine had 14,000 ft lbs of torque! See, now you are thinking as if it is some Turbo V8 with NOS but its not! Its a 2.0 litre 4 cylinder AND YET ITS PLACING MORE LOAD ON THE SAME TRANSFERCASE OUTPUT SHAFT.

All Im trying to say is that a Toyota gear drive transfercase can handle 5,460 ft-lbs of torque -- which is the lowest-ball figure just behind a whimpy stock carburated 22R engine -- and it will last all day, week, month, year, decade, who knows the limit! And then someone's gonna say "oh well I've broke a stock output shaft." Well that's great dude, but if you can brake an output shaft that is trying to take a 5,000 ft-lb load of torque, then how easy is it gonna be to break a transmission with just 510 ft-lbs torque coming from the same whimpy engine??
If you were to equal the amount of load that Marlin's Tripple case is putting on its output shaft by stacking transmissions, then it will take 50 transmissions stacked together to equal the same load that his tripple cases are doing to his output shaft of his transfercase which has been in service with this load for over 6 or 7 years now!

Could you believe a 50-transmissioned vehicle multiplying the torque that the 50th trans is getting by 195 (3.95 x 50) times! With a 3RZ (the strongest engine Toyota has dared to place in front of a W-series transmission) that will be 34,513.7 ft-lbs of torque into one poor ol' W56. 

So to anyone out there who is going to do this, by all means do it. I am not saying that you will break the transmission while rolling out of your driveway, but what I am saying is that people can break transfercase outputs that have been proven by Marlin to withstand loads almost 13 times that of which a transmission is acustomed to. No people do not break t/case output shafts every day, so you won't break your transmission ever day either. Futhuremore, look at me, I've never done this, I've never attempted this, I've never driven a truck with dual transmissions before, so I, just like you, have no experience with this. Just like Marlin had no experience with stacking transfercases and using lower gearing and running tripple cases, even he didnt know if it would hold up, but it is. So if the transmission was overengineered by Toyota by at least 12.7 times, then its gonna last just as long as Marlin's transfercase has. And that is like using a G52 for an engine that has 1,638.3 ft-lbs of torque at 2,800 rpm and then selling these trucks commercially and having the transmission last for at least 6 years as Marlin's transfercase has.

[Fireimp141]

Ive gone crosseyed...

[lowgeared]

Big Mikes fingers gotta hurt after all that.

[Gtown]

hey mike you need to get out more

[BigMike]

that took almost an hour including checking

[UNBREAKABLE [OP]]

              

[csudman]

Well, everything taken into acount.  I'm still gonna do it and see what happens.  I've already got everything biult.  Just gotta get it in.   

[FATB0Y]

    BigMike that made my head hurt

[FATB0Y]

csudaman      the Wright Bro. were told they were crazy 2.

[79coyotefrg]

  mike  im thinking you might need  bandaids on the end of your poor fingers    


me  im going single case stock gears, with a twin stick     soon as possible

[BigMike]

Well, everything taken into acount. I'm still gonna do it and see what happens. I've already got everything biult. Just gotta get it in.

Keep us updated! 

[csudman]

Here ya go.


Just because I'm posting pics.


I'm very proud of this.