Topic: Teaching gay marriage in school..

[toyotaboy]

do anyone even remember sex ed? i dont it was like an hour long explanation by watching a half hour movie made in the seventies and a half hour of questions which none of us cared about... why do ppl want Gay to be "taught" in school no one ever had to sit down and explain to me that im supposed to like girls why should we all have to have the first off wrong subject of Gay actually taught to our kids? some ppl need to read the bible and figure out gay isnt ok.... i dont hate the ppl that are gay. i know that there choices of doing so are wrong though. theres a reason two dudes cant reproduce... and isnt "nature" all about reproducing?.....God created man and then woman form man as a companion. not another guy to be his buddy. i dont need my children taught about gay marriage especially when there is no class nor has there been a class on why a man and woman should be married. if a kids gay great... someone should sit him down and explain the fact he's confused... how about teaching that in schools... why dont we hire special counselors to search out the confused and help them? Schools shouldnt taint the minds of the healthy by teaching them about gay as if it was an equal choice to being strait.

as for fighting ... seriously schools have issues with this.... not to support fighting as a healthy way of dealing with anger once your mature enough to deal with it but for heavens sake... let the kids have squabbles... let them bleed a little.. its healthy, not this horrible horrible thing.... ive never seen a fourth grader get hit so hard he got knocked out and had brain damage... its not to be encouraged but shouldnt be the end of the world. like abnormaltoy said.. its humbling getting your ass kicked cause you thought you were tough stuff.... and sometimes you have to put others in check when they pick on ppl... theres a difference of fighting for fun and being a bully and standing up for someone or yourself.

[Brandon [OP]]

well sex ed IS taught in school, has nothing to do with this prop.

This prop is to CHANGE something, voting NO changes nothing..

I am voting no..

I don't think any how to for gays would be taught, just that it is legal for same sex marriage which is fact. Procreation IS only man and woman and that is what is taught..

So.. the bible is your moral meter? Eeek that is scary..

It isn't a right or wrong it is just what it is and has been since the beginning of man/woman. It is history and if they teach when it was legal for same sex marriage like they may teach when it was legal for a black person to ride in the front of the bus, cool by me. Why is a gay kid confused? If he is he is..

[toyotaboy]

my biggest issue with 8 is that a preacher can get arrested for refusing to marry a gay couple in the church... that is completely wrong. a church should always have the right to do what they believe under there own roof. homosexuality is against Christian beliefs and is wrong. steeling is wrong. murder is wrong. shall we be taught about how murder can happen and that we shouldnt dislike or look down on the murderers just because they made a mistake or were "sick" when they murdered someone? or should we teach that its wrong to murder ppl.... or hey heres a great idea.... how about parents stop being so fricken lazy and spend some more time parenting and teaching kids about things that they know there child is ready to handle and let schools teach some math and science and history like a school should.

And really... please... sex ed isnt "taught" maybe "hey heres how to wear a condom so you dont get prego" is the most information there is about the suggestion or being strait cause they mention pregnancy and gay ppl cant have babies. but besides that is was about herpes and gonorrhea and how you should try not to get them

[*FFC*]

or hey heres a great idea.... how about parents stop being so fricken lazy and spend some more time parenting and teaching kids about things that they know there child is ready to handle and let schools teach some math and science and history like a school should.

[Brandon [OP]]

Right and wrong is measure by it's affects on you and other people. You getting married doesn't affect other people. You raping me does, big difference.

I can't comment on the gay getting married in a church that doesn't accept them cause that is just lame. I would never get married in a church because I think it is all hocus pocus brainwashing rather than thinking for yourself and it doesn't make sense for a gay person to get married in a place that doesn't accept them. Legality is another issue than acceptance.

I am married, but it was done by a justice of the peace or whatever they are called - NON RELIGIOUS commitment to my wife.

[Brandon [OP]]

[quote ]


[/quote]

History is that there have been gay people since there have been... people. Sure - teach history. What's the problem?

[*FFC*]

History is that there have been gay people since there have been... people. Sure - teach history. What's the problem?

True... the problem is the taking away of parental rights.  That's the problem. 

[Brandon [OP]]

what is taken away? My point is NOTHING is changing here, except that now it is legal for same sex marriage and that is fact. Not saying right or wrong just saying.

If you want to teach your kid and not have any other influence go for it, that is called home school. Not teaching them about the facts of life will just screw them up IMHO, if they are taught there is only man and woman and then they see woman and woman, man and man etc. You could say it is wrong and that is fine but the fact is that it.. just is what it is. I prefer to teach them up front, birds and bees and sex comes later. All I am teaching is that sometimes kids have two moms or two dads. The rest will come in time.

[*FFC*]

what is taken away? My point is NOTHING is changing here, except that now it is legal for same sex marriage and that is fact. Not saying right or wrong just saying.

If you want to teach your kid and not have any other influence go for it, that is called home school.

Alright, so a parent going to jail because they pull their kid out of class isn't anything new??

[BLACKDOG]

I'm not sure why the Bible as a moral meter is such a scary thing.  Modern civilization, including the building of the United States of America, is based on religious beliefs, including Christianity.  Even if you are not a religious person, the Bible is a pretty good guidebook for moral sucess in society.

Personally, I support Prop 8 (not that it matters, seeing as I don't live in CA) for several reasons.  I don't believe marriage should be between two people of the same sex.  In a civil union, gay partners get the same benefits as a man and woman in a marriage.  Personally, I think they should leave it at that.  IMO, voting no on 8 is just allowing homosexuals and liberal extremists to continue to push their agenda on the public.  I believe what I believe, and if someone wants to be in a relationship with a person of the same sex, go for it.  I'm not going to push my beliefs on them, but I don't want their beliefs forced on me.  As toyotaboy mentioned, it is dead wrong that censorship and govt control of the Christian church has gotten to the point that it has.  The fact that a preacher cannot refuse to marry a same sex couple because it is against his religious beliefs is just wrong.

So gay marriage at this time has been legalized.  The fact that gys want to be able to get married in a church, and have a minister not be allowed to refuse them, leads to the suggestion that they want their union to be recognized before God, thus bringing religion into it.  For some reason, they believe that if they get married in a church, then it is preceived as "right."  If religion weren't a concern, they gays would be happy with a civil union (which gives them the same benefits of a married couple) and be satisified with being married in a courthouse, as many opposite sex couple are that don't consider themeselves religious.  

As I mentioned before, I don't believe gay marriage is right, marriage is between a man and woman, and should remain so.  I don't agree with homosexuality, but what they do is their own business.  I won't push my beliefs on them, and expect the same courtesy from them.  I've got no problem working/associating with homosexuals, and in fact have a few friends that are gay, and have had co-workers that were in the past.

[Brandon [OP]]

Alright, so a parent going to jail because they pull their kid out of class isn't anything new??

heh? I don't get what your talking about with that one. It isn't illegal to home school.. There are "private" schools if you are so worried about it. Personally I want my kids to learn about life, not shield them from it.

[toyotaboy]

so is it ok for me to take your kids aside and teach them whatever values i please? whether you like it or not? or should i teach them non-controversial things like math, science, and history.

if you want to get into depth on history how about you let your children decide to take religion and history classes once they get to college and are ready to learn and understand these things? how about teaching history milestones like what has been taught not get nit picky about some things... you could spend a life learning about all the elements of history... it should be the choice of the student on what finite categories they pursue once they are of age... until then... wwII, holocaust, civil war, cowboys and indians, industrial revolution... those are what highschoolers and jr highers should learn about... elementary should be times tables and P.E. and the rest of the basics.

parents should have the power to teach what they want when they want if they want and prepare there kids for adulthood and parent the kid to be an adult to make his or her own adult decisions once he or she gets there upon the parents evaluation of their child. they SHOULD be the ones that know there child the best. if they dont they are doing something wrong.

[Brandon [OP]]

The preacher is doing a LEGAL union, if the church was just some group of people discussing this or that let them do what they want but that isn't the case.

I think there is some misconceptions with the church/gay thing but maybe that is on my part. A person could choose a religion and not be able to choose their sexual orientation. I believe that, and now they have a serious moral delimma.

What happened to separation of church and state? Marriage is a legal state thing, I realize it is a religious union to most but not all..

[Brandon [OP]]

so is it ok for me to take your kids aside and teach them whatever values i please? whether you like it or not? or should i teach them non-controversial things like math, science, and history.

if you want to get into depth on history how about you let your children decide to take religion and history classes once they get to college and are ready to learn and understand these things? how about teaching history milestones like what has been taught not get nit picky about some things... you could spend a life learning about all the elements of history... it should be the choice of the student on what finite categories they pursue once they are of age... until then... wwII, holocaust, civil war, cowboys and indians, industrial revolution... those are what highschoolers and jr highers should learn about... elementary should be times tables and P.E. and the rest of the basics.

parents should have the power to teach what they want when they want if they want and prepare there kids for adulthood and parent the kid to be an adult to make his or her own adult decisions once he or she gets there upon the parents evaluation of their child. they SHOULD be the ones that know there child the best. if they dont they are doing something wrong.

I said nothing about "values" only facts. If there is a law and it is taught great.

There is controversary in everything

Science - god or big bang?
History - Roman gay history, 70's drugs and gays, hitler, etc
Math - do we really need to know this stuff? Ok that one is tough but one could argue it I am sure..

Fact is fact, leave it at that. Morals are based on their affect on others, that is how I was taught not by religion. I did go to sunday school but I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

[Rocksurfer]

It is a religious ceremony, the license is the legal part of it. As to separation of church and state, I'm still laughing right now.

[*FFC*]

heh? I don't get what your talking about with that one. It isn't illegal to home school.. There are "private" schools if you are so worried about it. Personally I want my kids to learn about life, not shield them from it.

I'm talking about the fact that if you don't like that your kid is being taught in class, and you pull them out, you can be put in jail.  It's happened.... Granted yes, I will put my kids in Christian school, but still the fact that parents have no say over what their kids are taught is rediculous.

And homeschool is only legal if you use approved programs... IE: A Beka, PACE, etc.  

[toyotaboy]

The preacher is doing a LEGAL union, if the church was just some group of people discussing this or that let them do what they want but that isn't the case.

how would you have felt being that you feel the way you do about the church if someone had told you that you had to get married in a church with a religious ceremony?

Fact of the matter is the Preacher IS religious and should not be forced to do something that is against his and the church he represents religious views.

you dont want to be married in a church. no one forced you to. gays should not have the option of being able to force a preacher to do something he doesn't believe in or go to jail.

[Brandon [OP]]

I'm talking about the fact that if you don't like that your kid is being taught in class, and you pull them out, you can be put in jail.  It's happened.... Granted yes, I will put my kids in Christian school, but still the fact that parents have no say over what their kids are taught is rediculous.

And homeschool is only legal if you use approved programs... IE: A Beka, PACE, etc.  

If you discuss what your kids are taught at school and tell them the reasoning as to WHY they are being taught then so what, let the school teach what they teach.  So, a parent that pays attention to their kid will be able to "keep them in check" if that is what your going for..

[Brandon [OP]]

how would you have felt being that you feel the way you do about the church if someone had told you that you had to get married in a church with a religious ceremony?

Fact of the matter is the Preacher IS religious and should not be forced to do something that is against his and the church he represents religious views.

you dont want to be married in a church. no one forced you to. gays should not have the option of being able to force a preacher to do something he doesn't believe in or go to jail.

The difference is that there are gays that are religous, they choose the religion not the gay part. For the record I am defending something that of all people I should not (let's just say I'd rather not discuss), but I still feel that it is their right to be married. I probably feel that way because I was NOT in a religious marriage so I feel that what I did should be available to anyone regardless of sexual orientation.

Marriage is what it is about, not about some kids learning reality - that just comes with life.

I would not get married in a church, that would be hypocritical of me. I am glad I can get married without church

[toyotaboy]

I said nothing about "values" only facts. If there is a law and it is taught great.

There is controversary in everything

Science - god or big bang? neither is taught.. what is taught is the elements, biology, physics... last time i checked thats already been messed with against my liking

History - Roman gay history, 70's drugs and gays, hitler, etc no one taught roman gay history, nor the gays in the seventies and seriously hitler? how is that controversial? putting ppl in ovens is horrible, no one argues with that

Math - do we really need to know this stuff? Ok that one is tough but one could argue it I am sure.. balance a checkbook so morons dont go overboard into debt? thats a bad thing? 2+2 is fact not controversial at the elementary level

Fact is fact, leave it at that. Morals are based on their affect on others, that is how I was taught not by religion. I did go to sunday school but I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

[*FFC*]

If you discuss what your kids are taught at school and tell them the reasoning as to WHY they are being taught then so what, let the school teach what they teach.  So, a parent that pays attention to their kid will be able to "keep them in check" if that is what your going for..

I'll give you that.  It's still not the point though.  That a parent can go to jail for disagreeing with the teachings is just stupid.  

[Brandon [OP]]

I'll give you that.  It's still not the point though.  That a parent can go to jail for disagreeing with the teachings is just stupid.  

Well I'll give you that

You can't disagree that it is legal for same sex marriage though.  You can disagree whether it is right or wrong but THAT should not be taught. Pretty sure it is in your genes whether you are  or not, it is what it is and shouldn't be taught right or wrong IMHO. It isn't a right or wrong thing it just is a thing. Now your going to get me on the second part because we disagree but you can't get me on the first part.

I let my kid say the pledge of allegiance, I just let him know that we all have different views on what is god. Education is great, all of it. Let them have it all and let them choose right and wrong with guidance.

[toyotaboy]

The difference is that there are gays that are religous, they choose the religion not the gay part. I was NOT in a religious marriage so I feel that what I did should be available to anyone regardless of sexual orientation.

so if they are religious and they have found a church that will accept and marry them then great. i completely disagree but good for them. why force all churches to accept what the select few churches have decided. why make a law saying all must be like the few. let them be what they are and let the gays find a church that fits them not make a law saying all churches must change to fit them.

[Rocksurfer]

If you discuss what your kids are taught at school and tell them the reasoning as to WHY they are being taught then so what, let the school teach what they teach.  So, a parent that pays attention to their kid will be able to "keep them in check" if that is what your going for..

Still they should not be allowed to teach something out of the ordinary, you know stuff that builds knowledge like math, reading, science, history, etc, not religion, sexual choices, vegan, etc. What's the difference? Well it's pretty simple teaching math, science, reading, etc is just that teaching knowledge based info, teaching religion, vegetarianism, sexual choice are just that personal choices and subject to the teachers personal experiences and choices he/she has made in their personal lives.

[Brandon [OP]]

Well for one this prop is to CHANGE what it is right now - I have yet to see a church forced to do what they don't want to do, prove me wrong there.

I don't think we should force churches to do anything, but then again we shouldn't give them any legal rights either, or tax benefits etc..

[Brandon [OP]]

Still they should not be allowed to teach something out of the ordinary, you know stuff that builds knowledge like math, reading, science, history, etc, not religion, sexual choices, vegan, etc. What's the difference? Well it's pretty simple teaching math, science, reading, etc is just that teaching knowledge based info, teaching religion, vegetarianism, sexual choice are just that personal choices and subject to the teachers personal experiences and choices he/she has made in their personal lives.

Everything builds knowledge. I am an engineer so my math input will be different than some historian. My experiences will affect my teaching. My wife is a vegetarian, we have gay neighbors, life is life. I was born in the country and somewhat shielded but I would much rather my kids learn the facts of life at a young age than later in life. Teach the facts, not the opinions..

It's been fun, I gotta get to work though!

[toyotaboy]

Well for one this prop is to CHANGE what it is right now - I have yet to see a church forced to do what they don't want to do, prove me wrong there.

Exactly... thats why the prop is junk. a church shouldnt be forced and it should be left alone. if the prop gets passed which i highly highly doubt it will you will see preachers getting jail time. or if they have no backbone whatsoever do something they dont want to do.

[Brandon [OP]]

Wait a second, if it gets passed it changes things, if it doesn't nothing changes. So you are saying you are against or for it? Voting no means it does NOT pass..

[Rocksurfer]

Yeah you've got it a little backwards, if you are against gay marraige you'll be voting yes, if you want the California constitution to remain the same you'll want to vote no. Granted by voting yes you are voting to change the California constitution not to ban gay marraige. By voting to change the constitution it will reinstate the ban on gay marraige. Currently there is no provision to allow the banning of gay marraige.

[Brandon [OP]]

Bottom line is you want to take the rights away from other people you will be voting yes, if not your voting no. The whole teaching thing is just a bunch of mumbo jumbo to further the removing rights agenda