Author Topic: 22R Head (Read 15739 times)

Hottrod81 · « **on:** Oct 03, 2006, 02:13:28 PM »

I am having to rebuild the lower end of my 84 22R as it spun a rod bearing. I bought it this way. The previous owner got sand in the engine and the engine was starved of oil. The engine only has 131,000 miles on it. Since I will only put about 2,000 miles a year on it, is it worth it to rebuild the head? When I pulled the engine apart, the head looked to be in good shape. I am looking for a bit of advice. Thanks.

Duffil · « **Reply #1 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 02:15:21 PM »

Have a machine shop check it out. You can probably get away with a valve grind and surfacing. It's worth it to do it right the first time, IMO.

olivedrab85 · « **Reply #2 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 02:17:44 PM »

If the valves look good, I would just have it checked out and resurfaced.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #3 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 02:37:25 PM »

20R HEAD

Hottrod81 · « **Reply #4 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 03:18:30 PM »

I have thought about all of those things. I have heard about the 20R heads, but I don't know much about the benefits of them. I am going to have a machine shop check it out.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #5 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 05:12:51 PM »

Quote from: Hottrod81 on Oct 03, 2006, 03:18:30 PM

but I don't know much about the benefits of them.

most machineshops wouldnt have a clue

but get a good 20R engine, and just put your 22R block under it

6000 rpm down the interstate in 4th gear

what else you wanna know

Gittinit · « **Reply #6 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 05:59:32 PM »

don't ya have to install larger valves in a 20 r head to make the swap worthwile ?

Gittinit · « **Reply #7 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 06:04:38 PM »

I have limited knowledge of this mod, please enlighten me.
what block to use -tall deck or short deck
what block is an 84 block tall or short
how much is to gain from this swap
how much coin should one expect to spend

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #8 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 06:11:12 PM »

Quote from: gittinit on Oct 03, 2006, 05:59:32 PM

don't ya have to install larger valves in a 20 r head to make the swap worthwile ?

running stock 22R valves in the 20R head make for LOTS more power, but taking a stock 20R head and sitting it on a 1980-1984 "tall" 22R block will push that 22R from 105 hp to 135 easy

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #9 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 06:15:48 PM »

Quote from: gittinit on Oct 03, 2006, 06:04:38 PM

I have limited knowledge of this mod, please enlighten me.
what block to use -tall deck or short deck
what block is an 84 block tall or short
how much is to gain from this swap
how much coin should one expect to spend

tall deck 22R 1980-1984,

only difference between this block and a 20R block is the size and shape of the piston, THATS ALL

stock 20 on stock 22 block is 30 or more HP, put bigger valves, ie 22R valves in the 20R head and a nice stage 3-5 LCengineering cam and some dual valvesprings a 38weber, or maybe sidedraft carbs and you can get 200HP

Wermz84 · « **Reply #10 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 06:32:25 PM »

Glen, you talk so much about this swap it makes me want to look into doing it.

Maybee you should change your sig.. "20R head Advocate"

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #11 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 06:42:53 PM »

i run a 20/22 for a long time, had my truck sailing down the interstate at over 100, turning 6000 rpm in 4th gear when i dropped a exhaust valve, and thats the block i have in it now, EXTREMELY TOUGH MOTORS

Gittinit · « **Reply #12 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 07:00:51 PM »

ok tall deck vs short pistons different -no doubt there
deck height ie casting different <
combestion chamber= open chamber vs closed

kneedownnate · « **Reply #13 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 10:23:56 PM »

Quote from: 79Coyotefrg on Oct 03, 2006, 06:42:53 PM

i run a 20/22 for a long time, had my truck sailing down the interstate at over 100, turning 6000 rpm in 4th gear when i dropped a exhaust valve, and thats the block i have in it now, EXTREMELY TOUGH MOTORS

You got that right! You can't imagine the pure hell my 81 block has gone through, temp gauge pegged for long periods more times than I can count, but it still runs fine. Maybe it's time for you to do a writeup on the building of a hybrid. It'd be nice to have a sticky on it so we could reference it for knowing how to do the valves, etc. I have mine apart right now, so if I'm gonna slap bigger valves in now would be a good time, and knowing how to fit the 22r valves in would be great.

Marlin · « **Reply #14 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 11:15:50 PM »

Install the 4 spark plugs, turn the head upside down and spray soapy water on the valves then blow in the intake and exhaust runners with your blow gun.
The bubbles will show you the leaking valves and/or seats.

bluetoy84 · « **Reply #15 on:** Oct 04, 2006, 07:35:41 AM »

Quote

stock 20 on stock 22 block is 30 or more HP, put bigger valves, ie 22R valves in the 20R head and a nice stage 3-5 LCengineering cam and some dual valvesprings a 38weber, or maybe sidedraft carbs and you can get 200HP

Where do you come up with all this nonsense?

You are NOT going to gain 30hp by putting a stock 20r head on a stock 22r block. A 30hp gain on a 22r is huge. Also to get 200hp from a 22r will require a LOT more than the few simple mods you mentioned. Apparently you've never been around a 200hp 4cyl. I've helped a buddy who races a 4cyl circle track car for years. It's not easy to get that kind of power out of any 4cyl without some type of forced induction. Also a 200hp 4cyl runs so eratic at lower rpms that it would not be practical in a trail rig.

For most practical purposes a 20r heap swap is not worth the trouble. Don't believe all the hype.

yotabj · « **Reply #16 on:** Oct 04, 2006, 07:51:16 AM »

Quote from: bluetoy84 on Oct 04, 2006, 07:35:41 AM

Where do you come up with all this nonsense

Hottrod81 · « **Reply #17 on:** Oct 04, 2006, 08:43:07 AM »

Thanks Marlin, I will do that.

4inchToyotas · « **Reply #18 on:** Oct 04, 2006, 09:47:17 AM »

Quote from: bluetoy84 on Oct 04, 2006, 07:35:41 AM

Where do you come up with all this nonsense?
Blah blah blah

For most practical purposes a 20r heap swap is not worth the trouble. Don't believe all the hype.

You've got to be kidding me! If you've got the head off and have access to the parts and/or a bit of $$ you're dumb not to (unless you want "factory EFI" later or something like that) I've got an easy 150+ in mine and I went easy on the overbore. Could have built my own LC stroker, but didn't need a new crank. 6500 RPMs and it's beggin for more. Runs like a scalded turtle!!

Don't knock it till you try it.

4inchToyotas · « **Reply #19 on:** Oct 04, 2006, 09:50:57 AM »

Did find this on Pirate from 4RnrRick's 7M sawp thread:
Toyota Motors

20R, 2.2L, 90 HP@4800, 122 Ft-Lbs@2400
22R, 2.4L, 96 HP@4800, 129 Ft-Lbs@2800
22RE, 2.4L, 112 HP@4600, 142 Ft-Lbs@3400
22RTE, 2.4L, 135 HP@4800, 173 Ft-Lbs@2800, 6psi
20R/22R Hybrid, Estimated 135-155 HP depending on build
2RZFE, 2.4L, 142 HP@5000, 160 Ft-Lbs@4000
3RZFE, 2.7L, 150 HP@4800, 177 Ft-Lbs@4000
3VZ-E, 3.0L, 150 HP@4800, 180 Ft-Lbs@3400
5VZ-FE,3.4L, 190 HP@4800, 220 Ft-Lbs@3600
5M-GE, 2.7L, 143 HP@5200, 154 Ft-Lbs@4400
7M-GE, 3.0L, 199 HP@6000, 188 Ft-Lbs@3600
7M-GTE,3.0L, 232 HP@5600, 254 Ft-Lbs@3200, 5psi

Hottrod81 · « **Reply #20 on:** Oct 04, 2006, 10:13:55 AM »

I would be interested in doing this swap. Is it just a simple swap of the head? Will my intake off of my 84 Runner work. Anybody happen to have a 20R head?

kneedownnate · « **Reply #21 on:** Oct 04, 2006, 10:41:11 AM »

Quote from: bluetoy84 on Oct 04, 2006, 07:35:41 AM

For most practical purposes a 20r heap swap is not worth the trouble. Don't believe all the hype.

Have you built a hybrid? I'm guessing no, because I have and I know your statement is pure bull. I did it with a stock block and stock 20r head, no big valves, and I can tell you it was very worth it. The 20r head is a better design, period, and the 20r intake manifold breathes way better than the old 22r heads. I've never had a 22r that wanted to rev at all, but when I put on the 20r head it came alive. No I didn't gain 30hp, but it pulled better everywhere and pulled the long steep hill going to work without losing speed, something it NEVER did before.

Not my 2 cents, my factual real world experience.

kneedownnate · « **Reply #22 on:** Oct 04, 2006, 10:44:11 AM »

Quote from: Hottrod81 on Oct 04, 2006, 10:13:55 AM

I would be interested in doing this swap. Is it just a simple swap of the head? Will my intake off of my 84 Runner work. Anybody happen to have a 20R head?

No, your intake will not work on the 20r head, but you don't want it either. You can just snag a 20r intake manifold. For me it was just a straight swap, but I have an earlier block than you. I have a 20r head and intake, but I know the head isn't flat. You should be able to dig one up at a pick n pull or other yard.

yotabj · « **Reply #23 on:** Oct 05, 2006, 05:26:24 AM »

Quote from: 4inchToyotas on Oct 04, 2006, 09:47:17 AM

You've got to be kidding me! If you've got the head off and have access to the parts and/or a bit of $$ you're dumb not to (unless you want "factory EFI" later or something like that) I've got an easy 150+ in mine and I went easy on the overbore. Could have built my own LC stroker, but didn't need a new crank. 6500 RPMs and it's beggin for more.

So you mean to tell me that just by doing what mods you have listed on your signiture that you got 150+ hp.......Tell me what other mods are done because i sure don't see 150+ hp

bluetoy84 · « **Reply #24 on:** Oct 05, 2006, 06:02:45 AM »

Yes I have built a hybrid 20/22R. And I have also built plenty of 22Rs and 22REs. Have you ever built a good 22R

20Rs have a 80/81cc combustion chamber, early 22Rs 82/83cc. 20R valves measure 43mm/intake 35mm/exhaust, 22R valves 44.5mm & 36.5mm. By putting a stock 20R head on a stock 22R block you have decreased you combustion chamber by 1 or 2 cc's, but you now have smaller valves. I'm sorry but decreasing the combustion chamber by 1 or 2 cc's and DECREASING the valve size is not gonna give you a 30hp gain. If you believe that, then you can probably get at least another 20hp just by using a K&N air filter. You might even squeeze an extra 15hp out of it if you go get yourself a chrome plated import muffler!!...... Don't fool yourself .

If you were building a highly modified motor from scratch, and never wanted to run EFI then a 20R head is a good option. But putting a junkyard 20R head on a high mileage 22R block is not gonna be worth the effort. Ya'll also failed to mention that a stock aisin 22R carb will not bolt up to a 20R intake without an adapter plate, and you have to re-route some heater hoses. Also beware that the majority of 20R heads do not have anywhere to bolt a mechanical fuel pump or power steering. I think '79 & '80 where the only 2 years with the FP and P/S mounts. This is an awful lot of trouble just to decrease your combustion chamber by only 1 or 2cc's. Yes, I've heard that a 20R head will flow more air, but with a stock head , stock cam, stock valves, stock exhaust manifold , what are you achieving? 79coyotefrog is trying to tell people you'll have this tremendous hp gain by swapping all stock parts. This is simply not true.

Those of you who "estimate" you have a 150+ hp 22R. Have you ever drove a 3RZ. A 3RZ has around 150hp stock. I have seen very few "built" R series motors that will even compare to a 3RZ. Hmmmmm?

Gittinit · « **Reply #25 on:** Oct 05, 2006, 06:50:50 AM »

Quote from: Hottrod81 on Oct 04, 2006, 10:13:55 AM

I would be interested in doing this swap. Is it just a simple swap of the head? Will my intake off of my 84 Runner work. Anybody happen to have a 20R head?

I got two with intake. Let me know if you are interested.

4inchToyotas · « **Reply #26 on:** Oct 05, 2006, 07:00:20 AM »

Quote from: bluetoy84 on Oct 05, 2006, 06:02:45 AM

20Rs have a 80/81cc combustion chamber, early 22Rs 82/83cc. 20R valves measure 43mm/intake 35mm/exhaust, 22R valves 44.5mm & 36.5mm. By putting a stock 20R head on a stock 22R block you have decreased you combustion chamber by 1 or 2 cc's, but you now have smaller valves.

But you've also raised the compression ratio 0.5~1.0:1.0

Quote from: bluetoy84 on Oct 05, 2006, 06:02:45 AM

79coyotefrog is trying to tell people you'll have this tremendous hp gain by swapping all stock parts. This is simply not true.

There have been no written results of his or mine or anyone else's hp numbers because it's not worth spending money or time for a dyno. There IS hp gained, but the number depend on your build. and using stock 20r parts is not completely worthless. I was running stock 20r head and there WAS a hp gain (again no actual numbers to verify, but the truck was faster just based on a stopwatch (0-60 time decreased) I had an exhaust manifold leak and wasn't gettin all I could out of the motor and noticed a good increase.

Quote from: bluetoy84 on Oct 05, 2006, 06:02:45 AM

Those of you who "estimate" you have a 150+ hp 22R. Have you ever drove a 3RZ. A 3RZ has around 150hp stock. I have seen very few "built" R series motors that will even compare to a 3RZ. Hmmmmm?

see, you can't compare the 3rz unless you're comparing a 22r stroker 2.7L > 2.4L so yes the 3rz is going to be better - no replacement for displacement. But why stop with the 3rz, have you ever tried a SC'ed 3.4L..it's apples vs. oranges again

As for my motor I can't give you 100% factual hp numbers but it's close to 140. My specs from what I can remember: 20r head - 46mm,38mm valves, port/polish, 3 angle valve grind, comp cam 268s (may be 260s). 22r block - bored 0.20 over, stock stroke. Thorley header, Weber carb.

Nothing said here is the bible of engines. Just opinions and experinces. Don't believe anything??...don't do it. Some people say it's worth it some don't. It's just like some say that 37's are too big, or synthetic winch rope is better than steel cable.

4inchToyotas · « **Reply #27 on:** Oct 05, 2006, 07:03:46 AM »

If it wasn't worth it at all I don't think LC Engineering would bother posting 150+, 185+ and up hybrid motors, they'd just stick with the plain 22rs.

dcg9381 · « **Reply #28 on:** Oct 05, 2006, 07:26:33 AM »

Quote from: 4inchToyotas on Oct 05, 2006, 07:00:20 AM

There have been no written results of his or mine or anyone else's hp numbers because it's not worth spending money or time for a dyno. There IS hp gained, but the number depend on your build. and using stock 20r parts is not completely worthless. I was running stock 20r head and there WAS a hp gain (again no actual numbers to verify, but the truck was faster just based on a stopwatch (0-60 time decreased) I had an exhaust manifold leak and wasn't gettin all I could out of the motor and noticed a good increase.

It's not worth spending time on a dyno? If not, then it's your buttometer vs my buttometer for bragging rights. Not terribly scientific.

Yes, people HAVE spend time and money on a dyno.. Even with a 22R-series.
Here's a dyno run of a 22RE:
http://lakebox.dnsalias.com/photos/1988%204runner/engine/dyno/4Runner%2520Dyno.jpg
Mods: engn bldr's head, DOA 270 cam, .040 over, header, flowmaster, new cap rotor & plugs.
Not real impressive is it?

Note, I haven't built a 20R big-valve hybrid, but from what Ted has said, the 20r will improve flow at higher RPM. If you look at the dyno graph above, the 22RE is done by about 4k. That's at least in good part due a port design (I think there is a hump in the intake port, produces much better torque). You CAN port a 22re to flow... Trust me on this, I've got one that flows 218cfm @ .425/16" water... I'll bet a 22R-series that pulls above 4500 will feel a lot bigger.. I'd be suprised if it puts out beyond 145 FLYWHEEL hp...

See what kind of work it takes LC to get 145-160 hp out of these things and you'll understand.. It's not as simple as bolting on a 20r head.

Quote

see, you can't compare the 3rz unless you're comparing a 22r stroker 2.7L > 2.4L so yes the 3rz is going to be better - no replacement for displacement. But why stop with the 3rz, have you ever tried a SC'ed 3.4L..it's apples vs. oranges again

It think the max size for a stroker is 2.6L - that's it.. no bigger...

Quote

Nothing said here is the bible of engines. Just opinions and experinces. Don't believe anything??...don't do it. Some people say it's worth it some don't. It's just like some say that 37's are too big, or synthetic winch rope is better than steel cable.

Opinions can be backed by dyno runs.. It'd be ashame to spend all that money on a motor and then not bother to spend the $50-$75 to dyno it with A/F so you can get it tuned correctly!

yotabj · « **Reply #29 on:** Oct 05, 2006, 07:31:59 AM »

It costs alot of money to build a high hp 4cly....4.3 is the way to go if you want more power and run toyota running gear...I believe telling people 30 hp by just swapping the head is crazy.....I don't want anyone to waste their money on something and not be happy with the end result..But don't kidd yourself 200 hp is ridiculous

Hottrod81 [OP]

Hottrod81 [OP]

Hottrod81 [OP]

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