22R Head

[bluetoy84]

But you've also raised the compression ratio 0.5~1.0:1.0

That's not gonna give you 30 hp.

see, you can't compare the 3rz unless you're comparing a 22r stroker 2.7L > 2.4L so yes the 3rz is going to be better

Why not? 150hp is 150hp, anyway you look at it. If you have 150 hp it should be comparable to a 3rz.

As for my motor I can't give you 100% factual hp numbers but it's close to 140.  My specs from what I can remember: 20r head - 46mm,38mm valves, port/polish, 3 angle valve grind, comp cam 268s (may be 260s). 22r block - bored 0.20 over, stock stroke. Thorley header, Weber carb.

With the mods you done to your motor, yes a 20R head is great. Sounds like you built a good motor.

What I'm trying to say is people don't need to think they can swap a 20R head and see huge power gains without doing anything else to the engine. Power is not cheap on these motors. What was the total cost of your motor??

If it wasn't worth it at all I don't think LC Engineering would bother posting 150+, 185+ and up hybrid motors, they'd just stick with the plain 22rs.

They also build '85-'95 22R's with just as much horsepower. 

[4inchToyotas]

My rebuild cost me $2k. I already had the head and intake ( did this swap since which I bought the truck it had a bad cam and I wanted to be safe). the head, new timing set was $750 (head, cam, valves, etc...this work was also done in the complete rebuild) I'd say that if I did the rebuild all at once (convert to 20r head and upgraded components) would have run me about $2,200+/- the LC numbers for their motors are way high...DOA's are more reasonable, but why ship a motor twice when there was a machine shop across the street.

[4inchToyotas]

Just to get things "settled" I'll see if I can get the truck to a dyno by the end of this month. LTB's and 5.29s don't like the hwy too much in  the ATL!

[yotabj]

the LC numbers for their motors are way high

are you meaning motor specs?

[insane04]

dam am i on PIRATE too much BS. arguing over advertised HP is a pile of crap. i like my 20r/22r and downey cam with propane very much .

its not the HP monster by any means, if that is what you need do a 4.3 vortec chevy.

[yotabj]

Well there is no sense in giving out wrong info

[4inchToyotas]

are you meaning motor specs?

I meant prices. I never felt it worth the tiem and money to actually put my truck on the dyno, mostly because I don't care what the hp is. It's 100% better for driving but I was fine with the 90ish hp version too.

[79coyotefrg]

  oh man  im gonna  hurt myself falling in the floor  laughing my off

i see 4 or 5 guys including myself,  that have run 20/22 hybrids,


6000 RPM  IN GEAR on the interstate,  not when i mash the clutch for it to rev,  but IN GEAR, get your 22R  to do that


bluetoy,   i too  have a close friend with a 77 Celica running the circle track scene,  he started out with the 20R and 32/36 weber, LC cam,  he did ok,  but wasnt winning.

he swapped in a 22R  used the same carb and cam,  did better  because of the better torque,  but  consistantly got passed

he asked me one sunday afternoon what he could do,  we went to his shop  i flipped his 20R head over and used som antifreeze as a test liquid,  the 77 20R head,  which  had  P/S  and a mechanical fuel pump,    , had 75cc  combustion chamber,   we decked it .005  i personally ported the head, and notched the pistons for him,  he had brand new LC StainlessSteel valves in the 22R head  so we had new 22R valve seats  put in the 20R head  and matched the porting to them,  i personally swirl polished the valves to each individual  seat,  blueprinting the head,  we then installed  a new stage 4 LCengineering race cam

20R/22R - Stage 4 Camshaft
Hot Street / Circle track / Drag Race (2500-7200 rpm)
Side drafts, Holley 2 Barrel, 1 5/8" Header
                                            Intake     Exhaust
Valve Lash                              .008         .012
Valve Lift                                 490°         490°
Advertised Duration                  310°         310°
Duration @ .050"                     264°         264°
Lobe Center                            104°         104°

  , 
new  MLS gasket  and  head bolts from toyota,  new LC dual springs  and titanium retainers,


now  he dyno ed  at just under 180HP,  but won  the next 3 races he ran   

so  just go play with your 22R  or whatever, i know,  and everyone else that takes  the mod seriously  knows too.

see you at the stop lights 

[Hottrod81]

This is a good debate guys, keep it going.  I have decided to not do this mod as I don't believe it will have any benefits for me as my rig is built for rocks and I don't think I will ever reach 5,000 RPM much less 6,000.

[4inchToyotas]

That's what I said too...and I ended up doing it anyways.

What Glen described isn't anything that could only be done by racers. Decking the head, port/polish valve seats etc can be done at home or any machineshop that does engines. The cam can be ordered no sweat.

[dcg9381]

Why not? 150hp is 150hp, anyway you look at it. If you have 150 hp it should be comparable to a 3rz.

Because there is more to how a motor behaves than peak HP.  It's all about the area under the curve, not necessarily the peak point of that curve.  I've seen hondas put down 400hp, but they run like a light switch.


I think a "budget" 160-180 hp 22RE can be built at a cost of $2k.  I think this would suprise most people.  I'm working on a high dollar version of the build now - main differences are forged internals and a @#$#@ expensive DOA head, and a big turbo, but it can be done for a lot less money with great results.

Basic formula:
stock 22RE, rebuilt correctly. $600-$800, depending on the condition of the motor.
22RTE pistons, included in the above cost
turbo manifold $300-$550
t3 turbo $250 (reman) .42./.48
megasquirt, alternate injectors (used/cleaned), 190 LPH pump, $500

A small turbo version can easily put down 150+hp (rear wheel), with a great torque curve, 87 octane, and great reliablity.
With modern / moderate turbos I've seen put down 170-180hp.  There's a guy on the Celica forums with a GT28RS.
The problem in the 22R community has always been that the only way to do this was with a 22RTE computer and electronics, which complicates the build and STILL requires some fuel system patches past about 150hp.  Or alternately to spend $1100-$1700 with LC engineering for SDS.

Megasquirt too hard?  Talk to me - I can show you how to do it and make it a lot easier (for free).

[79coyotefrg]

directly quoted from www.toysport.com      In 1985 Toysport raced a 22RE Toyota Celica GTS in the Macao Grand Prix.  The original plan was to use an 18RG, but since the vehicle had US serial #'s (from Toyota Motorsport) we were forced to use the U.S. engine the 22RE!  To the entertainment of the other Toyota Teams from Japan, we qualified at the last minute, in the last half of the grid.  The other Celicas (with their Twin Cams) were all in the top 6 positions.  At the finish the Toysport Celica placed 3rd- behind 2 BMW Motorsport prepared 6 cylinder BMWs!  This is the highest finish achieved by the 22RE in international racing competition.

From 1984 to 1989 Toysport prepared a Spec-Engine for SCORE / HDRA Toyota private entrants.  The winnings from the Toyota Contingency Program testify to the racing capability of the set-up.  The engine package kit is still available, as complete engines.  This set-up won National Championships for Toyota in Class 7 and Class 7 4WD.  The carbureted engines developed 185-195 HP, but consistently out ran the 239-240 HP Ford engines in the same class.  The secret is in the torquey characteristics of the power band. The limiting factor of this engine is also its strongest point.  The long stroke limits RPM capability to about 6200 maximum, but the bottom end will take a lot of abuse.  The crankshaft is forged.

[yotabj]

 What are we doing here building race motors now.......i don't know but i don't build 4x4's to race with...Marlin Crawler is a OFF ROAD website.......I don't care how much motor you think you got...I go slow....I don't need power...

[4inchToyotas]

OWNED!!

[olivedrab85]

 

[79coyotefrg]

What are we doing here building race motors now.......i don't know but i don't build 4x4's to race with...Marlin Crawler is a OFF ROAD website.......I don't care how much motor you think you got...I go slow....I don't need power...

you know,  not everyone  on this forum  rock crawls,  many run mud  or sand  or  a mixture of all 3.           those who have done the 20/22 mod  im sure will never go back,  those who havent  will always  dispute the mod,  big whoop.
different engines  in different vehicles  do different things for different reason.   I built i engine that could run 90 on the interstate  as well as sling mud 40 feet in the air,   and  with dual cases  any motor can climb a wall

a couple of you seem to think  that because you dont have first hand experience  that  those of us that do  are full of .   well  thats too bad  for you. if  i see further name calling  or talking bs  those threads will be locked also, if not completely removed

this thread is locked.       

[79coyotefrg]

one 6 inch rubber boot,  1 inner tube,   and a little over 7000 miles  and still going strong.    not one leak 

[79coyotefrg]

at yotabj's  request  i am going to unlock this thread.       i will say i can and will delete  the entire thing if it gets out of hand again

[yotabj]

  thanks coyote o.k where we we

[Wermz84]

 

[79coyotefrg]

the only problem i ever had was  when i tried to tow ,  because of the increase in compression  i had problems with detonation,  thats why,  after my last piston replacement   i  went back to a 22R head,  but  i have decided  the next time i need to  do anything  i 'll probably go back to the 20R head.   even with my stage 2 cam,  the 22R head runs out of breath at 5000

i can always try  some efi pistons  to  lower the compression  for towing  or just  retard the ignition timing when i tow 

[Rocksurfer]

I never had any issues with my truck and I used to tow my Willy's with it and it was ab out 2300lbs. wet. Maybe it's the type of fuel you are using.

[bluetoy84]

Any stock 22RE will hit the rev limiter (6000 rpms) if you push it hard enough, but just because a motor will rev real high don't mean it's making any power at a high rpm. The power curve on most R series motors starts dropping drastically around 4k rpms unless you have a HIGHLY modified engine with a very wild cam.

You can easily get a 22R to turn high RPM's.The motor in my '83 street rig is an '85 22R with .040 kieth black pistons, comp 280S cam, dual valve springs, ported head, weber 38mm, 1.25" header with 2.5" exhaust and a flowmaster. It will flat out haul butt on the highway, but it is terrible trying to drive it off-road. It's way too touchy for trail use, if you try to let it lug it will bog and when you give it gas it revs too fast. It runs great on the road, but I would not want that engine in my trail rig. I have built two 22REs with a comp 260s cam and no other mods for trail rigs. They work awesome off-road. The torque curve with a low end cam is great. It's no speed demon on the highway, but you can easily spin 38's with 5.29 gears off road.

Like I said before, a 20/22 hybrid is a great choice if your building a high rpm motor and you don't need EFI , but your not gonna see a huge increase just by swapping heads and not doing any other modifications. For most people's application a 22R works great so why mess with it.

[yotabj]

Biggers higher comp. =better top end moter  smaller valves = more bottom end  is that right or am i thinkin backwards

[TRHS1980]

I don't think it's come up yet so I'll just come out and say it...

"Does that thing got a hemi?"

"Why yes, yes it does..."

[79coyotefrg]

I don't think it's come up yet so I'll just come out and say it...

"Does that thing got a hemi?"

"Why yes, yes it does..."

no  rocksurfer,  it might have been the 3600 lb truck i was towing 

[kneedownnate]

Like I said before, a 20/22 hybrid is a great choice if your building a high rpm motor and you don't need EFI

Just to spice this up a little:  I have a hybrid, am building another for another truck, and one of them will end up with efi.  Not just any efi, but a stock toyota setup.  We'll see how it works with a 20r head and big valves, though I'll hafta stay fairly mild on the cam. 

On a side note, since I'm doin a head gasket I'm gonna throw in my mikuni cam.  I'd like to do the bigger valves right now, but I don't think I can afford to buy the valves, seats and have the work done. 

[yotabj]

Just to spice this up a little:  I have a hybrid, am building another for another truck, and one of them will end up with efi.  Not just any efi, but a stock toyota setup. 

How are you planning on mounting the intake?

[4inchToyotas]

I don't think it's come up yet so I'll just come out and say it...

"Does that thing got a hemi?"

"Why yes, yes it does..."

Once I get mine streetable again, I'm going to drive it down to the local dodge dealer and see if I can get one of those sickers, and put it on the hood right there in the parking lot. (after I cut the identifying emblems off)

[TRHS1980]

  I love it, that will really piss off those mopar guys