Topic: Muhammad cartoon and general rants regarding the state of the world!

[BLACKDOG]

that would be sweet


Road trip it!!

[abnormaltoy [OP]]

Mexico, Venezuela, Bolivia - somewhere in Latin America.  That is where my research is going to be done (working with indigenous populations - hopefully Yucatecan Mayans.)  I'm hoping to get a position at a university in one of those countries.  And yes, I am a natural born American.  Truck - 3500 to 4000.  Bobbed, chevies, duals, aussie, l52hd, superlift fronts, 34 x 10.5s

Seriously, what do you think you'll find there that is going to so much better that it is here? Other than the aboriginal people you want study. Or, do you think these people had/have some wondrous relationship with nature?
Socialism hasn't worked anywhere. There's rampant poverty. Governmental corruption (far worse than even the left-most nightmares of our government.) diseases, poor medical care and really big bugs! 
I'm not baiting you...I really want to know.

Mark

[TigerToy]

Seriously, what do you think you'll find there that is going to so much better that it is here? Other than the aboriginal people you want study. Or, do you think these people had/have some wondrous relationship with nature?
Socialism hasn't worked anywhere. There's rampant poverty. Governmental corruption (far worse than even the left-most nightmares of our government.) diseases, poor medical care and really big bugs! 
I'm not baiting you...I really want to know.

Mark

Poverty in Latin America is largely caused by unfair trade agreements (NAFTA, CAFTA, and GATT are unfair to workers everywhere.  It creates an environment that forces workers to compete against each other, thereby driving the cost of labor down.  Simple supply and demand.  The winners - giant international corporations.)  I could go into the nitty gritty of deflation, community based economies, but its really dry and boring.  As for socialism.  Democratic socialism is the preferred method of government in Canada, Europe, Israel, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Chile.  Chile is a very prosperous country, and Venezuela under the leadership of Hugo Chavez has cut poverty by fifty percent in five years (largely through reallocation of profits from oil).  Chile is also a nice case study in privatized social security - it has utterly failed in that country.  Bolivia just elected the first indigenous person to hold chief of state in a Latin American country.  Chavez has been villanized by the western media, but every election that he has won has been certified by international voting watchdog groups as legitimate.  He has virtually eliminated illiteracy and given land back to indigenous groups that held it for thousands of years before colonialism.  The story of the coup attempt when Chavez was deposed for two days was truly remarkable (possibly to the point that its not entirely true).  Anyway, the story goes that the higher ups in the military led the coup, but when the lower level officers found out about it they rebelled and defeated the coup before it could really get started.  There is also some evidence that the coup was CIA backed which would not be suprising given the CIA's reputation in Latin America.

Basically, the reason that I want to work in Yucatan is that I like the people there.  Milpa (slash and burn agriculture) has been practiced for thousands of years and is still practiced today.  Though land intensive, it is one of the most environmentally friendly forms of farming on the planet.  I also have certain values about shared wealth that aren't congruent with American culture.  It would probably be better for me to leave than to try to change them.

[kneedownnate]

Wow, I can see being disgruntled enough with how california is run to leave the state, but not the country!  If you don't wanna be here I say good riddance!  That goes for anybody, if you're disgruntled enough to be so far left to start thinking as they do then hit the bricks!  Our boys aren't training/fighting for you, they're doing it for those of us who appreciate them!  And I'm referring to everything from they do to protect our freedom, not just the middle east bs.  Love it or leave it man.  I love it, so I'm gonna stay racht tere!

[abnormaltoy [OP]]

It's bed time. I'll reply in depth on the morrow. I think you're  wrong on many issues, but I've GOT to get to sleep now!
Mark

[gedean]

   I really enjoy getting on here and hearing the variety of views (thankfully most aren't the typical Californian ones though).  It really does take all kinds to come to a nice medium.  It's sad to see that you really think you'd be better off leaving Tiger Toy.  However, you can leave if you want to, it's another one of the great freedoms you enjoy as an American... for now.  Kneedownnate, we don't just train/fight for the people who love the military either.  As I heard it put once "I will continue to defend your right to whine".  You really do have to have everyone's opinions to have it work.  If it was up to me I'd help the Middle East out by tunring them into the largest producer of glowing glass in the world.  There have to be few liberals around to keep things ideas like that from coming to fruition.  Here are a few thoughts of my own.

[gedean]

Yes having an image of Mohammad is no muy bueno, but last time I checked so is burning a flag, and I'm pretty sure they know that one or else they wouldn't do it.  They also wouldn't be all over the media being outraged if
A. Westerners hadn't made the printing press and subsequent inventions allowing for mass information.
B. There weren't Western sympathizers that would listen to them.
C. It didn't further an Anti-Western sentiment.
In short the Muslim world could certainly chill out about it... maybe not calling for "Heads and Hands" would be a good start.

I do agree that you should know and respect a person's / ethnicity's / religion's values.  You don't have to win hearts and minds.  I don't really think it is possible.  What we can do is try to keep the issues to a minimum.  Not everyone there hates us.  Most people in the world are fundamentally just like us.  They want to live their lives, and not be interfeared with.  There is no reason to be a p*&^s if you don't have to.  On the other hand when being proper gets in the way of business that needs to be conducted, politeness goes out the window.  For example, as a general rule Americans will not go inside a Mosque.  The Muj realized this and as a result these "Holy" grounds became a haven for fighters. 

The actions of those Army reservists in Abu Garib were also deplorable and it's not because they played some frat, retard games with the prisoners and violated their precious rights.  It is because that kind of behavior is unprofessional, immature, and embarrassing for us.  It wasn't even done for the sake of interrogation, only amusement.  I'd have rather had a video of detainees being lined up and shot in the head, or systematically tortured.  At least then it would have sent a strong message that we aren't screwing around.

A lot of you obviously feel that Iraq/Afghanistan are not the right places for the US to be.  I've spent a little time there and I still don't know enough to answer that one.  I don't think that just leaving now is the answer to that one.  If you wanted that you should have voted for Kerry.  I think if the US left now a number of bad things would happen. 
A. I think the whole thing would just fall apart over night.  Neither country can sustain itself.
B. Yes oil prices are not cheap now, going into Iraq has not made them any cheaper.  However if we can get the joint un-f*&^%$d that might well change.  Iraq has approx. 22 percent of the worlds oil.
C. Most of the bad guys in Iraq/Afghanistan are not locals.  They are foreign fighters.  This means we are killing a lot of other a-holes from other countries that hate America too.
D. My index finger might atrophy from lack of use.

[gedean]

As far as respecting the rules of engagement, that is a western construct. It is impossible to expect people to respect an idea that they feel has no legitimacy. Law must have its basis in consensus or it will not be followed. People choose to follow laws only if they feel them to be just or representing a just or legitimate power. Anyway, I'm not sure why anyone thought it would be different. The Koreans did it, the Viet Cong did it. I mean the word is out, guerrilla warfare is the way to outlast the American military. The American public has little patience for a long, costly war, and our enemies know that. our enemies know us better than we know them. The whole rhetoric of we they can't win militarily is totally, utterly BS. You win politically or you don't win at all. Read 'On War' by Clausewitz. It is basically the military bible. The theme - war is an extension of politics. BTW, Rush is a nice speaker and good manipulator, but not the most logical guy in the world. I heard him one day say that 'Fox News and this show constantly beat the liberals.' This implies that the news is for sale to the highest bidders. Now thats democratic. I have heard him say some other choice pieces of idiocy that some 'dittoheads' swallow up like arsenic laced koolaid. I always thought dittohead was ironic. Who wants to be someone that repeats everything the person before them said. I guess dittohead kinda means programmed robots.

BTW, since when were liberals weak. Che Guevara and Fidel Castro took over a whole country with less than 100 men. Of course, they weren't the most moral of individuals, but still, less than 100 men. Of course morality has rarely figured into any decision amongst political leaders, including in the US.

Tiger Toy is correct on several points here, on others... not so much.  Yes insurgents do not follow laws of war (different than rules of engagement by the way), I wouldn't if I was one.  However not following those rules by say taking civilian captives and then cutting their heads off, would mean you can't complain when you in turn are not treated humanely.  They still complain regularly however.  It is a one or the other thing as far as I am concerned.  I wouldn't expect any culture that has several words for exhuming a dead body and then dragging it around the streets to follow any laws of war. 

It is pretty much an accepted fact that an insurgency can beat the American public, not the military, but the public opinion.  The American sense of justice and respect for human life will not allow the military to fight fire with fire, nor will it allow a long war.  If there were a few less liberals that cared about our enemy, and supported the troops instead, I think we'd have a shot.

As for liberals being weak, no, they just have a different take on some issues and gasp sometimes they are right.  As an afterthought if Castro is an example of liberal strength I think I'd re-examine my association with the word LIBERAL.   

 

[gedean]

Finally, I know a lot of you would still love to bomb all of the Middle East back into the Stone Age....
 
Well, you can't....

Most of it is already there.

[Lady Di]

i voted for the knotthead

I was just bustin' yer chops, I was too tired to really think of something funny. Now to go back and read the rest. By the looks of it there was some good raging debate going on!

[Lady Di]

http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=451.msg33268#msg33268

[Lady Di]

It's bed time. I'll reply in depth on the morrow. I think you're wrong on many issues, but I've GOT to get to sleep now!
Mark

Wow, there is some incredible debating going on here. GEDean, that was all very impressive and enlightening.

abnormaltoy, I look forward to your take on this.

TT, I am impressed by your knowledge (albeit classroom taught knowledge, and not yet real world knowledge) and glad you are not one that would whine about injustices in the world with the US being the top of the your hit list but yet sit cozy in your warm safe home watching 300 channels of on the TV.

I too am a love it or leave it kinda person, and it seems you are too. I like to see someone actually stand behind these words. You have my respect. More power to you, I hope whatever your endevours are work out as you expected and reality doesn't slap those rosey liberal student glasses off your head in another 5-10 years.

Seriously, what do you think you'll find there that is going to so much better that it is here? Other than the aboriginal people you want study. Or, do you think these people had/have some wondrous relationship with nature?
Socialism hasn't worked anywhere. There's rampant poverty. Governmental corruption (far worse than even the left-most nightmares of our government.) diseases, poor medical care and really big bugs! 

two words terrestrial leeches


As far as slash and burn agriculture being the most most environmentally friendly forms of farming on the planet, I would beg to differ, but that is an debate for a different thread.

[Lady Di]

This just in:

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule

For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd

If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.

And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange, red or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.

The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.

In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state

We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.

They've outlawed guns, but first the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.

It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.

We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.

But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd

It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.

So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!

Amen

(and don't forget, respect muhammad!)

[rlwjaw]

One thing muhamed and all of his or her followers can rejoice in is that I will NOT be joining them in any after life, my wife is enough of a woman for me.
I wish I to could live out the rest ov my days in the Yucatan especially Playa Del Carmen or Tulum or perhaps, Pez Maya. The yucatan coast is very nice. However going there would mean giving up more than I care to, so my yearly visits will have to do. I dearly love the Mexican people and would like to see better relations between our two countries.

[Lady Di]

I would love to see pictures from your travels rlwjaw, I am sure it is completley amazing country.

[TigerToy]

Wow, there is some incredible debating going on here. GEDean, that was all very impressive and enlightening.

abnormaltoy, I look forward to your take on this.

TT, I am impressed by your knowledge (albeit classroom taught knowledge, and not yet real world knowledge) and glad you are not one that would whine about injustices in the world with the US being the top of the your hit list but yet sit cozy in your warm safe home watching 300 channels of on the TV.

I too am a love it or leave it kinda person, and it seems you are too. I like to see someone actually stand behind these words. You have my respect. More power to you, I hope whatever your endevours are work out as you expected and reality doesn't slap those rosey liberal student glasses off your head in another 5-10 years.
 two words terrestrial leeches


As far as slash and burn agriculture being the most most environmentally friendly forms of farming on the planet, I would beg to differ, but that is an debate for a different thread.

My experience is real world.  The fundamental principle of my discipline is fieldwork and application.  I don't have cable, I don't watch TV, I use the internet access at the school.  I work full time.  I go to school full time.  I write a column for the schools anthropological newsletter.  I work on independant research.  I am also 27 years old, and worked for about seven years as an auto technician before I came to college.  The blue collar background is what gives me my left leaning.  The means of production must be owned by workers in order to have social and financial equity.  Now, tell me some more about my rose colored glasses.  I live a life of austerity (except for maybe my truck) because those are the morals that I adhere too. 
And, milpa farming is one of the most environmentally friendly forms of agriculture on the planet.  They deplete certain tracts of land and let the lie fallow for twenty to thirty years.  It is only since giant international logging companies have adopted slash and burn methods in the Amazon that the environment has suffered.  Indigenous populations have a very deep understanding of using renewable subsitence methods.  This has been coroborates scientifically by tons of long term research.  In fact. Native American populations probably had the earliest and most sophisticated environmental engineering project in the history of humanity - corn/maize.  (Although, I do admit that my knowledge of the Middle East is second hand from books and people who do research there.)

[TigerToy]

Please don't misunderstand what I am saying.  I respect people in the military.  In fact, I would like to get some military training, but I don't want to put the time or dedication into going into the US military.  I respect what they do.  I do not think they are fighting for my freedom.  In fact, I am not exactly sure what they are fighting for.  Of course, this isn't the individual soldier's fault - it is the decision maker's fault.  Anyway, questioning the use of the military is a very democratic action.  The military is a tool owned by the people.  I vote, so I have the right to speak out when the military is misused.  The highest ranking officer in the military is a civilian (the President) and this was designed as a symbol of who controls the military by the Framers.  As far as what should we do now?  I am kinda of the Colin Powell leaning.  The US broke it the US bought it.

[Lady Di]

My experience is real world. The fundamental principle of my discipline is fieldwork and application. I don't have cable, I don't watch TV, I use the internet access at the school. I work full time. I go to school full time. I write a column for the schools anthropological newsletter. I work on independant research. I am also 27 years old, and worked for about seven years as an auto technician before I came to college. The blue collar background is what gives me my left leaning. The means of production must be owned by workers in order to have social and financial equity. Now, tell me some more about my rose colored glasses. I live a life of austerity (except for maybe my truck) because those are the morals that I adhere too.
And, milpa farming is one of the most environmentally friendly forms of agriculture on the planet. They deplete certain tracts of land and let the lie fallow for twenty to thirty years. It is only since giant international logging companies have adopted slash and burn methods in the Amazon that the environment has suffered. Indigenous populations have a very deep understanding of using renewable subsitence methods. This has been coroborates scientifically by tons of long term research. In fact. Native American populations probably had the earliest and most sophisticated environmental engineering project in the history of humanity - corn/maize. (Although, I do admit that my knowledge of the Middle East is second hand from books and people who do research there.)

LOL! Just testing the waters with my rose colored glasses comments, TT. I am impressed. You are very well read and very well written. When I read slash and burn I was seeing things on the large scale. Of course I know nothing about these people.
I am very glad to see someone like you using your powers for good rather then evil. If one person could make a difference in the future of our world, it is someone like you that would make it happen.

[Lady Di]

As far as what should we do now? I am kinda of the Colin Powell leaning. The US broke it the US bought it.

The US bought it? Lets plow it under and build another... DISNEY WORLD!!
Hell, they've already corned the market on hotels and convenience stores.
Would you like a squishy? Thank you, come again. 

[chim]

I personally think that the Muslims were just looking for an excuse to start more crap..  and it always ends up being over the jews and Israel... if you dont know the Muslims are calling for cartoons that make light of the Holocaust.. Like the jews had anything to do with the cartoons.... this will just cause more contention.. because we back Israel, then the Muslims will be more pissed at us then they already are..  its never going to stop...  its going to get worse.

[Lady Di]

But we didn't even post the cartoons in the first place, it was the Danish, wasn't it? I haven't followed the whole thing, but wasn't it a Danish paper that printed them?

[Lady Di]

Yup, I was right:
Danish PM Calls for Global Calm

COPENHAGEN, Denmark

Denmark's Prime Minister on Tuesday called protests over drawings of the Prophet Muhammad a global crisis and appealed for calm.

"We are now facing a growing global crisis," Anders Fogh Rasmussen said. "It now is something else than the drawings in Jyllands-Posten."

The Jyllands-Posten, a Danish paper, first published the drawings that have sparked violent protests in Muslim countries worldwide. They have since been reprinted in media around the world.


And then this... in part from Reuters.. so now we get into a battle of nanny nanny booboo do we? :

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's best-selling newspaper has launched a competition to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust in retaliation for the publication in many European countries of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.
The Brussels-based Conference of European Rabbis (CER) denounced the idea and urged the Muslim world to do likewise.

The Anti-Defamation League, which fights anti-semitism, described the competition as "deliberately inflammatory".

The Iranian daily Hamshahri said the contest was designed to test the boundaries of free speech -- the reason given by many European newspapers for publishing the cartoons of the Prophet.

"Does Western free speech allow working on issues like America and Israel's crimes or an incident like the Holocaust or is this freedom of speech only good for insulting the holy values of divine religions?" the paper asked.

[chim]

Thats the stupid part..  it was about the Danish to start out with, now its an excuse to go after the Danish and the Jews too!

[Lady Di]

Sounds like it's an excuse to go after anybody who is not them

http://"Does Western free speech allow working on issues like America and Israel's

this is really getting insane! (and btw- yes, western free speech does allow working on issues like America, I am sure we have all seen plenty of editorial cartoons mocking us) .

Besides, they are not evey arguing apples to apples, if the mocking was the mocking of a diety

or is this freedom of speech only good for insulting the holy values of divine religions?"

then shouldn't the argument be "Does Western free speech allow working on issues like mocking God" and to that I would again have to say, yes it does.

Some wouldn't like it for sure, but it would not merit rioting in the streets.  Unlike say, something so horrific as the Lakers losing the NBA title (or is it winning) which of course merits the rioting and looting of downtown LA.

[rlwjaw]

I dont know much about slash and burn but is my understanding that the American Indians that spent the summer arround the rubicon area and camped at Wentworth Springs used to set the forest on fire wen they left in the fall. If you look at wEntworth Springs today you have to search but some evidence is still there. When I was a very young kid summers there were very beautiful and almost devoid of people. I know this is kinda off topic but I thought interesting about the burning . If any one elese has any info about the history of Wentworth Springs I would love to hear from you and maby start another thread.
The Yucatan is a beautiful area and exploration is still going on and discovering new and wonderful forgoten ruins.I would love to be 27 and impressionable again with all the opportunities that are available to our youth today.One more thing not all blue collar working people belive that we need to try to understand muslims and the middle east cultures, I dont even think they understand themselves. Oppression seams to be a way of life over there and as long as they are being oppressed by one of there own they dont seem to fuss too much but when westerners intervine they get very up set and start killing anyone and everyone like a rabid dog atacking without distinction.

[TigerToy]

Thanks Mrs. Mammoth.  The Danish are having a rough year.  Aruba is a danish territory and van der sloot was a Dane.  Maybe Denmark is the new France.

[Lady Di]

Thanks Mrs. Mammoth. The Danish are having a rough year. Aruba is a danish territory and van der sloot was a Dane. Maybe Denmark is the new France.

 

[alwayzbroken]

Tigertoy, I respect your views very much. I am in college as well and have recognized through all my general ed. sociology and mass com classes that if college only does one thing it is enhance a person's bullshirt detector. I have been able to sift through the crap that is fed to us by our political leaders. Because either they don't want the public to know the truth or don't want to complicate our lives. We are bred to be sheep and most are good sheep questioning very little because they are largely uniformed or just don't care. The impact our industry has on other developing nations really is sad but it is all for the good of US citizens like us. Aspects of sociology push people to left as it teaches how the United States is  (economically oppressive not violently oppressive in most cases) oppressive to other cultures and nations. The globalization by the United States is a large force keeping the 3rd world nations poor. The same people pushing globalization are the ones living lavishly making millions of dollars per year in control of our major corporations with goals of increasing their fortunes. They live off the working class exploiting our labor while they sit back and make unimaginable profits. There are countless ways that the United States reaches out overseas and hurts others in foreign nations by non-violent means. While I recognize that the United State's policy hampers the growth of other nations, I recognize it is all to make our lives better. The people of the United States are able to live like kings everyday compared to the people of western Africa because of this policy. I understand the shortcomings of our nation but that does not mean I am against our country. I am just as Pro-America as everybody else and would choose to live no place else but at the same time I see things a different way than most which happens to be similar to the way Tigertoy sees a few things. I think he should keep his truck because he is gonna need it to escape the non-aboriginal people that hate Americans of any kind whether or not they hate America as well.

The Iranian action of calling for Holocaust cartoons is just plain childish. I just laugh at the region. Those people are such a joke. Why would they target a whole religion for the actions of a few journalists exercising the right to freedom of speech. It is not about Westerners VS. Middle East. There was no survey sent to every white man on earth asking if everybody approved of the Muhammad cartoons. Why retaliate against a whole mass of people for the actions of a few cartoonists. The views of those cartoonists does not necessarily reflect the views of all Christians. The sad thing is that they will never understand how foolish they are. As I am typing I see Headline News is reporting violence by protesters as result of the Muhammad Cartoons.

[abnormaltoy [OP]]

    I believe the things I believe because they have worked in my life. Although I know there are going to be shades of gray in life, I see things mainly as black or white, right or wrong, etc. Example…you cannot be partly pregnant. So, now you kind of know how I think.
   Socialism goes against every thing that makes mankind…mankind. Socialism can only exist where mediocrity is the goal. Socialism seeks to “level the playing field”, toward this end it shaves off the peaks (human excellence) to fill in the valleys (human complacency).  As a result, the end is malt-o-meal. I mean it’s food but not really. No one excels and no one fails. One cannot succeed with out failing first. The pursuit of perfection, while futile, nonetheless leads us towards excellence.
    Capitalism allows people to succeed…if the government of a given nation will allow it.

[abnormaltoy [OP]]

[quote   Chile is also a nice case study in privatized social security - it has utterly failed in that country. 

I first of all wouldn't base anything we do on anything Chile does. Convince me how taking my money and letting someone else retire on it is better than letting me invest MY money towards my own retirement!
Mark