Thinking about getting bigger cam??

[toyodaaddict]

Jim told me that someone was stealing and selling their designs or something to that effect, so he wasn't in a big hurry to give info on his secret sauce.

I do know I have his 272, the idle is like stock and the motor has POWER.. for a 22re

[Gnarly4X]

Jim told me that someone was stealing and selling their designs or something to that effect, so he wasn't in a big hurry to give info on his secret sauce.

I do know I have his 272, the idle is like stock and the motor has POWER.. for a 22re

That seems a little strange to me.... all anyone has to do is mic the camshaft to get the profile. 

Gnarls. 

[H8PVMNT]

Yes but while most people would probably feel comfortable stealing and reproduce specs off a cam card, micing a cam and copying it to resell is probably a little to blatant for another supplier to feel good about.  Plus they would have to actually buy the cam.

I am happy to try a mystery stick based on his recommendation  .

[Gnarly4X]

I am happy to try a mystery stick based on his recommendation  .

NOT me!.... Trust, but verify!

I've been burned too many times by "experts"!!

As Bob Seger says... "Work'n on mysteries without any clues".... no bueno for engine builders!

Copying someone's camshaft profile to resell isn't going to be done by any manufacturer.... no need to.

Copying the specs and then having a regrinder make it is more expensive than just buying the original.

And besides, I want to know WHY the camshaft works, not because it works!

Just me. 

Gnarls. 

[H8PVMNT]

I sent him another email.  We will see.

[emsvitil]

NOT me!.... Trust, but verify!

I've been burned too many times by "experts"!!

As Bob Seger says... "Work'n on mysteries without any clues".... no bueno for engine builders!

Copying someone's camshaft profile to resell isn't going to be done by any manufacturer.... no need to.

Copying the specs and then having a regrinder make it is more expensive than just buying the original.

And besides, I want to know WHY the camshaft works, not because it works!

Just me. 

Gnarls. 

me too.........

[emsvitil]

I sent him another email.  We will see.

maybe a link to this thread would help...........

[Gnarly4X]

maybe a link to this thread would help...........

OHHH BOY~~~!!!!!  That could be very interesting!

I always enjoy "expert" input.

I've read highly debated and emotionally charged, sometimes flaming exchanges between experts and others who have strong opinions or experiences.  But, those threads, for me, are most often the best revealing and enlightening forum discourses I've read.

On another well-known Toy site, some "experts" did post, and it was interesting.

I'd be surprised if Jim would engage much here.  Probably for a good number of reasons. 

His input here would be incredibly valuable.  He would most likely dispel some misinformation and urban legends that may be somewhat shocking for some.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

He gave me the lobe centerline of 105 and says the other specs are locked up.

He did say he is developing an intake for the 22r that will be good for an extra 20 HP . That should be fun.

[Gnarly4X]

He gave me the lobe centerline of 105 and says the other specs are locked up.

He did say he is developing an intake for the 22r that will be good for an extra 20 HP . That should be fun.

Hey...  "locked up"....

I spoke to Jim sometime back about the intake manifold he is developing.  Although some information about that has been available, I chose not to reveal anything public about it until he goes public with it and makes it available.  I can hardly wait to see the dyno results!!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

He gave me the lobe centerline of 105 and says the other specs are locked up.

OK... now I think I can do some number crunching!!

Thank you.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Is that the intake centerline, the exhaust centerline, or is what he is calling lobe centerline actually lobe separation?

[Gnarly4X]

Is that the intake centerline, the exhaust centerline, or is what he is calling lobe centerline actually lobe separation?

Good questions.

I made the assumption that the ICL is 105 and if the LSA is 110, then the ECL has to be 115, making the cam timing 5 degrees advanced.  If it were flipped, ICL 115, ECL 105, and the LSA 110, then it would make the cam timing 5 degrees retarded.

I have attached the updated Excel Sheet adding the Putney 282 Camshaft, based on skimpy data from H8PVMNT.

Let me know what you think.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Is that the intake centerline, the exhaust centerline, or is what he is calling lobe centerline actually lobe separation?

Good question.

In post 417..

OK Jim sent this info on the 282 cam grind:  "The lift on both is 433. Duration @ .050 is 226 and the LS is 110."

So.... I assume LS means Lobe Separation Angle.

This is frustrating for me because without all the cam specs, the variables - that I have to assume - produce different results in the torque and HP numbers within the RPM range.  For example....  I can make the ICL and ECL 105 degrees, LSA will be 105 - that places the peak torque at 3500 RPM and cam timing at zero.  If I make the ICL and ECL 105 and 115, LSA will be 110, it will move the peak torque to 3100 RPM, and cam timing is 5 degrees advanced.

Not providing the cam specs for a camshaft is Bravo Sierra.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Yes, LS is LSA which was 110.  Thanks for doing what you did with what we got.  Yeah all he said was lobe centerline is 105, I can only assume that is for both sides since he failed to specify but who knows since with the 110 LSA it doesn't quite add up.  What he says about this cam would lead you to believe the peak torque will be higher in the RPM range.  I am both uninformed and talking out the side of my I don't know what I'm talking about so...

Anyway I'm going to run the sukkah!   

[Gnarly4X]

H8PVMNT,

Please keep in mind I have been comparing the cam profiles in the same engine.

If you narrow down your engine specs for your "nasty strung out 4 banger", I will be happy to plug it into EA and see what we get with that Putney cam.

20r/22r hybrid?

Weber 38?  ... side drafts will make you crazy.  Better yet, if you can afford it, Jim's new intake manifold may be the best bolt-on 20 HP goodie you can buy.

Are you going to punch it out a bit? 

Who's head, if not a 20R?

What compression ratio?

Header?

But... just from the numbers I've compared, and you are interested in a power band at  3,000 RPMs up, I would seriously look at one of the Crane or Schneider profiles.

I will run some numbers on Schneider's carb profile and Crane profiles.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

I managed to bring up my OLD copy of the Toyota EPC program (parts lookup) on my OLD Windows ME machine..........


Found the Toyota part number for the 22R(x) camshafts.

There is only 1 part number,   so the camshaft for the 22R, 22RE, 20R is the same (also turbo).....

Toyota number  13511 38011


then found it here:

https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~camshaft~13511-38011.html


Toyota
4Runner
1984-1995
DLX, SDT, SR5, SR5 Turbo, STD
4 Cyl 2.4L
22R, 22RE, 22REC, 22RTEC, 2L, 2LT; LN56, LN65, LN66, RN101, RN106, RN110, RN120, RN121, RN130, RN131, RN50, RN55, RN60, RN61, RN65, RN66, RN70, RN75, RN80, RN85, RN90, VZN100, VZN105, VZN110, VZN131, VZN61, VZN66, VZN85, VZN90, VZN95

Toyota
Celica
1978-1985
GT, GTS, LT, ST
4 Cyl 2.2L, 4 Cyl 2.4L
20R, 22R, 22REC; MA61, RA42, RA64, RA65

Toyota
Corona
1976-1981
DLX, LE
4 Cyl 2.2L
20R; RT119, RT134, RT135

Toyota
Pickup
1979-1995
DLX, SDT, SR5, SR5 Turbo, STD
4 Cyl 2.2L, 4 Cyl 2.4L
20R, 22R, 22RE, 22REC, 22RTEC, 2L, 2LT; LN40, LN56, LN65, LN66, RN101, RN106, RN110, RN120, RN121, RN130, RN131, RN32, RN34, RN37, RN38, RN42, RN44, RN47, RN48, RN50, RN55, RN60, RN61, RN65, RN66, RN70, RN75, RN80, RN85, RN90, VZN100, VZN105, VZN110, VZN131, VZN61, VZN66, VZN85, VZN90, VZN95

[Gnarly4X]

.....

Found the Toyota part number for the 22R(x) camshafts.

Hey emsvitil,

Wow.. that's good info.  Assuming this data is accurate, it should dispel the historically posted comments that there are different factory Toyota profiles for these engines.  There may be "Toyota factory published" cam specs, but as far I can remember I have not seen any.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

OK you asked for it...

This will most likely be a 20r/22r hybrid but I am considering a straight up 20r just because I want to use the flat top pistons and I'm not sure the .2 liters wouldn't be a wash for the better quench and flow of the flat tops. It will depend on what block I can get ahold of and what work it needs. I have a 20r block I am pulling out of a low miles Celica derby car and if it is pristine, which I doubt, I might just hone and re-ring it.   I also have an early 22r sitting at a buddy's house I can go grab.  It is of unknown condition but turns over and is not spun out.  I will be balancing piston/rod assemblies this time.  Thinking about a single row chain and aluminum rockers for this one.

For he sake of throwing up numbers, lets say it's a 20r/22r hybrid.

For the head: Probably the 20r style oversized valves with things hogged out to match and a typical port and polish for the head. I don't want to use the shorter 22r valves in it because that limits the amount of lift you can ultimately use.  Already have an old tri-y header of decent quality on the truck. Exhaust will be larger and straight through to match the higher RPM tuning goals. I have a set of used side drafts I can get reasonably.  I like going nuts so I think I will try them.  This is what will make it a strung out pain in the ass, which is one of my goals.  I want to be popping the hood all the time and cussing at it  .  When I get it to go, I want it to go.  If I have to pick at it all the time that's OK.

This thing will have 4.37 ring and pinions and probably 28-29" tires on nicely oxidized aluminum wheels so gearing will be nice and tight.  I have had no trouble towing and doing 80 with that setup even with a stock 20r so I am sure it will be on the quick end for what it is with any kind of improved engine.  I might try a light weight flywheel if I can find room in the budget but it's low on the priority list. This truck will be stripped down though. There will be no duals, winch etc.  Bumpers will be light.  A light weight flat bed is probable.  I may even take off the sliders.  The truck this engine is intended for may see some mild wheeling and it will get driven but this will be my take on a Toyota 4x4 version of a rat rod.  Street and lousy dirt farm roads will be it's main habitat.  It will be use as a pickup, it will go to work a time or two a week and driven like the dukes of hazard recreationally.  A buddy does an occasional overland scavenger hunt/rally race type event every once in a while and it will be used for that kind of thing.

Jim's manifold will be for a 22r head so that is out of the picture since I am totally sold on the 20r head after trying it on the 4runner.  I also have several good 20r heads now for some reason.

Compression ratio, it's not like I will choose it because it will depend entirely on how far the block will be punched out and the head milled, but more than a stock 22r since the 20r head all ready has a slightly smaller combustion chamber and there will certainly be milling.  I'll let you take an educated guess on final CR.  This will be tuned for pump gas though, I'm not going nuts with CR and I will have an un-milled 20r head to send to the machine shop so it won't be shaved down too awfully far.

Adjustable cam gear is a must have.

I will use the 282 cam just because I have it and Jim thinks it will be a good fit for my goals.  If it ends up a little more mid and a little less wound out I will probably be better off anyway.  If it disappoints I can always swap cams later.  I really doubt I will be disappointed in it though as much thought and experience as this guy puts into his stuff.


I guess it's really not that crazy and I do have somewhat of a budget.  Getting the carbs going and the proper manifold to use them will be expensive.  Head work will cost a bit.  But I'm already a good $300 ahead on the project because I traded junk-to-me cores for the cam and valve springs.  I also have a pristine crank from a free parts truck I polished up in my office so that saves another $160.  So my total so far is -$460 .


In summary:

20r/22r Hybrid
OS 20r valves/port & polish
Putney 282 cam ?
Adjustable Cam Gear dialed to perfection
Side Drafts
CR 9.5:1 ?
Tri-Y Header and 2 1/4 straight exhaust

[Gnarly4X]

OK you asked for it...

I love getting into the weeds!!!! .....or even a rain forest!   

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

OK you asked for it...

...
In summary:

20r/22r Hybrid
OS 20r valves/port & polish
Putney 282 cam ?
Adjustable Cam Gear dialed to perfection
Side Drafts
CR 9.5:1 ?
Tri-Y Header and 2 1/4 straight exhaust

OK, great!  I will massage these specs and plug data into EA and then run some numbers.  I will also swap a few cams that look like they may perform well at the upper RPMs where you will most likely be crushing your MPG.  By EA's numbers, I'm not 100% convinced that the 282 profile is the best choice....just look'n at the numbers, not saying Jimbo hasn't done some dyno testing.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Hey emsvitil,

Wow.. that's good info.  Assuming this data is accurate, it should dispel the historically posted comments that there are different factory Toyota profiles for these engines.  There may be "Toyota factory published" cam specs, but as far I can remember I have not seen any.

Gnarls.

Damn,   might not be a myth.........

Found another part number   13511 35010

Goto here:

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/xref    (part of http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/q.html)

And search for 13511 35010    and     13511 38011


13511 35010 seems to be in less vehicles,   and show up in non EFI
13511 38011 shows up in carb and EFI

Might have to go by VIN,   by VIN mine shows up as 13511 38011


still no specs

[Gnarly4X]

Damn,   might not be a myth.........

Found another part number   13511 35010

Goto here:

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/xref    (part of http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/q.html)

And search for 13511 35010    and     13511 38011


13511 35010 seems to be in less vehicles,   and show up in non EFI
13511 38011 shows up in carb and EFI

Might have to go by VIN,   by VIN mine shows up as 13511 38011


still no specs

Both part numbers show up in some of my searches as well, but everything I've seen indicates they are the same camshaft.

As I mentioned, I have not seen any officially published Toyota factory specs on the cam.  It may exist?

I HAVE seen cam specs published by manufacturers of OEM Toyota cams, and ALL four engines - 20R, 22R, 22RE, and 22RET, show the exact same part number and specifications. 

What is interesting is that in typical cam profile designs a turbo cam will usually have wider lobe centers to shorten the overlap.  Since the Toyota factory profile seems to have a narrow overlap (about 3.2 degrees), I assume the Toyota engineers figured it was fine for the 22RET.... or there is a different cam profile out there for the 22RET?

So, until and unless I can find, or someone produces other data, I have to go with what I know so far.  I've researched the Toyota 20/22 cams for years.... BUT a new discovery is always a possibility.

Cam Type   Mechanical

Ext (.006/Rocker Arm Ratio) Cam Lift Duration 254
Ext Cam Lift   .264
Ext Gross Valve Lift   .383
Ext Rocker Arm Ratio   1.45
Ext [email protected] Cam Lift Duration   224
Ext Valve Lash Clearance   0.014
Grade Type   Stock

Int (.006/Rocker Arm Ratio) Cam Lift Duration   244
Int Cam Lift   .262
Int Gross Valve Lift   .380
Int Rocker Arm Ratio   1.45
Int [email protected] Cam Lift Duration   212
Int Valve Lash Clearance   0.008
Lifter Type   Mechanical

NOTE:  Those specs do not provide ICL or LSA?  I have slightly different specs from other sources?

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

Did I just read that right?  You're saying the stock cam has duration @.050 = 224?  That's bigger than a lot of aftermarket cams and a lot bigger than anything I've ever read about stock cams.

[Gnarly4X]

Did I just read that right?  You're saying the stock cam has duration @.050 = 224?  That's bigger than a lot of aftermarket cams and a lot bigger than anything I've ever read about stock cams.

Hey Plainview,

Where you been hid'n??

I apologize if I confused anyone.  I've edited the spec to common camshaft profile measurements to avoid confusion.

This is off of Melling's website.  I assume this is a stock cam and factory specs. The TCS-1 Part Number is the same listed for 20R, 22R, 22RE, and 22RET.  This is an example of my issue with factory cam specs for the Toyota 20R, 22R, 22RE, and 22RET.  And, yes, those numbers are slightly different.

CAMSHAFTS - Part No. TSC-1

Cam Type   Mechanical
Grade Type   Stock
Lifter Type   Mechanical
   
Ext Gross Valve Lift - .383
Ext Rocker Arm Ratio - 1.45
Ext @.050 Cam Lift Duration - 224
Ext Valve Lash Clearance - 0.014
Int Gross Valve Lift - .380
Int Rocker Arm Ratio - 1.45
Int @.050 Cam Lift Duration - 212
Int Valve Lash Clearance - 0.008

The other, more common, specs that have been posted on various sites for the same engines are:

INT ICL – 110
Duration @ .050" – 210
Max Lobe  Lift - .273
Valve Lash - .008"
Gross Valve Lift - .398
Rocker Arm Ratio – 1.457
Lobe Separation Angle  – 110

EXH ECL – 110
Duration @ .050" – 210
Max Lobe  Lift - .264
Valve Lash - .008"
Gross Valve Lift - .385
Rocker Arm Ratio – 1.457
Lobe Separation Angle – 110

As I have said before, there probably is some actual Toyota factory published documentation on these camshafts, BUT I have yet to see any.

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

Been a busy summer and work has been kicking my ass.  Haven't had any time to work on the truck or do much else.

Those numbers your posting for "stock replacement" cams seem long on the .050" from what I've seen.  I don't remember where I saw it, but the numbers I saw reported for a stock cam had the .050" on the intake side less than 200 degrees.  IIRC, it was about 198 degrees.

The Sealed Power CS719 which Federal Mogul markets as a stock replacement cam shows 199/202 @ .050".

http://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?pNum=CS-719&partType=Camshaft&brandId=SP

A lot of aftermarket cams marketed as "mild" or "stage 1" or whatever performance cams don't even have 210 @ .050.

Guess I'm going to have to degree the stock cam in my xtra cab.  I know for a fact that's the original factory cam.

[emsvitil]

Something is OFF with the stated melling specs....

The advertised duration is what you'd expect for a stock cam, but the .050 numbers are better than the comp cams 252 replacement cam....

[Gnarly4X]

Something is OFF with the stated melling specs....

The advertised duration is what you'd expect for a stock cam, but the .050 numbers are better than the comp cams 252 replacement cam....

What source for the specs should we believe are accurate? 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Been a busy summer and work has been kicking my ass.  Haven't had any time to work on the truck or do much else.

Those numbers your posting for "stock replacement" cams seem long on the .050" from what I've seen.  I don't remember where I saw it, but the numbers I saw reported for a stock cam had the .050" on the intake side less than 200 degrees.  IIRC, it was about 198 degrees.

The Sealed Power CS719 which Federal Mogul markets as a stock replacement cam shows 199/202 @ .050".

http://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?pNum=CS-719&partType=Camshaft&brandId=SP

A lot of aftermarket cams marketed as "mild" or "stage 1" or whatever performance cams don't even have 210 @ .050.

Guess I'm going to have to degree the stock cam in my xtra cab.  I know for a fact that's the original factory cam.

Yes, I've seen that part number from Sealed Power on one of the Celica forums.  Are those the "real" Toyota factory cam specs? 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Here's some specs from Jack Alford that have been around for a long.  Are those specs accurate?   


http://www.off-road.com/trucks-4x4/toyota-4-cyl-engine-information-18589.html


Gnarls.