Topic: Thinking about getting bigger cam??

[Plainview]

Gnarls.

I just opened it from my work computer and it was fine.  I think there's something funny going on with my home computer, it's been acting a little wonky lately

[andykrow]

are you on a Valium drip?

No but that sounds pretty good right about now

[Gnarly4X]

No but that sounds pretty good right about now

andykrow... are you OK?   Valium is used to treat anxiety disorders, alcohol withdrawal symptoms, or muscle spasms.   

Are you having anxiety about your rebuild?....  there's been several nights when a Valium drip probably would have helped me get over the nightmares I was having about my engine. 

Gnarls.

[andykrow]

Are you having anxiety about your rebuild?....

This motor is so quiet I can finally hear every OTHER noise my truck is making

[Gnarly4X]

This motor is so quiet I can finally hear every OTHER noise my truck is making

Man... I am SO envious!!!

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

Geez Gnarly, why didn't you tell me the FSM doesn't have any cam specs in it?

I finally found one for a not-too-outrageous price and was looking through it today.  No mention of cam specs at all except how to measure lobe height, which really doesn't tell you anything except how to check if a lobe is worn.  No duration, no lobe position, nada. Bummer.

[Gnarly4X]

Geez Gnarly, why didn't you tell me the FSM doesn't have any cam specs in it?

I finally found one for a not-too-outrageous price and was looking through it today.  No mention of cam specs at all except how to measure lobe height, which really doesn't tell you anything except how to check if a lobe is worn.  No duration, no lobe position, nada. Bummer.

Well.... I thought somewhere along the thread I mentioned the factory specs were published but I haven't seen anything from Toyota.  There may be some data out there, I just don't remember seeing it on any "official" Toyota publication or internet data.

I think you'll be glad you have an FSM.  It's does have some good stuff in it.

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

Well I'm not at all disappointed I bought it.  Way better than the Haynes manual I've been working from.  The detailed diagrams of the emissions and electrical systems are worth it just by themselves.  I now know how the HAC works!

When I was blathering about cams earlier I mentioned that I thought the specs would be in the FSM and was surprised they were so hard to find.  If you said they weren't then I missed that.  Not really blaming you man, just flinging poo to stir things up.  I've seen factory cam specs on the web but where did they come from?  How do we know they're accurate?  The fact that one source I saw showed the carb and EFI cams having basically the opposite specs of each other for the intake and exhaust lobes has me wondering.  That's why I was hoping the FSM would have that stuff in it as Toyota would be the ultimate authority on this stuff.  The GM service manuals from the late 60s and early '70s that I have contain much more information about the various cams including duration, lobe positions, and lift so I was kind of thinking Toyota would do the same thing.

Oh well, hope you're having a good weekend!

[Gnarly4X]

Well I'm not at all disappointed I bought it.  Way better than the Haynes manual I've been working from.  The detailed diagrams of the emissions and electrical systems are worth it just by themselves.  I now know how the HAC works!

When I was blathering about cams earlier I mentioned that I thought the specs would be in the FSM and was surprised they were so hard to find.  If you said they weren't then I missed that.  Not really blaming you man, just flinging poo to stir things up.  I've seen factory cam specs on the web but where did they come from?  How do we know they're accurate?  The fact that one source I saw showed the carb and EFI cams having basically the opposite specs of each other for the intake and exhaust lobes has me wondering.  That's why I was hoping the FSM would have that stuff in it as Toyota would be the ultimate authority on this stuff.  The GM service manuals from the late 60s and early '70s that I have contain much more information about the various cams including duration, lobe positions, and lift so I was kind of thinking Toyota would do the same thing.

Oh well, hope you're having a good weekend!

" just flinging poo to stir things up." .... can you imagine how boring it would be without "poo-flinging" on a cult-like, passionate Toyota owner's 4-wheeling site!

Yeah... I appreciate the good wishes for good Holiday weekend.  Back to you.

I caught a bug and been hacking for 3 days, and I had to work yesterday and I was miserable!

This is just my experience...

Engine specs... well I have found that cam specs in general are available and published, but not always accurate, they can change for the same advertised part number, and often incomplete - and of course the power gain claims backed up with dyno test data are as rare as hens teeth.

Manifold and head porting "specs" are even more of a mystery.  I have not found Flow Bench testing data readily available by the ANY factory auto manufacturer, and only rarely openly discussed with an aftermarket supplier.  Like camshaft profiling, I understand that most of that testing is done in the racing communities.  And.... for the average DIYer, the data most likely won't mean much.  Example, assume that 22RE Performance sells a ported 22 head and engbldr sells a ported 22 head, and assume each has been ported based on their flow testing.... which one flows better?... and how do you know?  Were they flow tested at 10" of H2O or 28"?  What does that mean? What was the increase in cfm from stock? What does that mean?

You'll enjoy the Toyota FSM.  If I had a dime for every time I cracked open mine since I bought it in 1986 I could take a nice 2 week vacation to Cabo.

Compared to Detroit, perhaps the Japanese are more secret about they automotive engineering prowess.

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

As far as heads and porting go...

Going back to the Pontiac example because I'm familiar with it. The factory never published any flow numbers but enough people have flow tested factory heads and published the results that the info is readily available.  The speed shops who supply ported heads and aftermarket heads supply flow sheets that show lift at every point from .050" up to .550" or higher if needed for an all out racing application.  Flow is typically measured at 28" pressure drop but if done at less than that it's fairly easy to convert between the different pressures.  Therefore you can see how much  better a ported head will flow than stock.

Going back to Toyota - even though the stock flow rates aren't available, if we have a flow sheet from a ported head that can still be useful for helping to select a cam and estimating the potential power output of an engine.  For example, a head with a very high intake/exhaust flow ratio doesn't need a cam with extra exhaust duration unless you're trying to crutch a restrictive exhaust system, but why would you spend the money for head porting/flowing to saddle the engine with a stock manifold? 

Does the flow rate plateau at a certain lift point?  Let's say the head doesn't gain very much if any flow from .450" to .500" lift and again the gain is very small or non-existent from .500" to .550".   That tells us that running a cam with a whole lot of lift isn't really necessary.  Just puts extra strain on the valvetrain components, though keeping the valve at it's max flow lift for as long as possible is beneficial.  A custom cam grinder can come up with a "flat nosed" lobe that gets to a certain lift then stays there awhile.

It's interesting to me that most of the performance cams for these little engines are on narrow lobe separation angles (LSAs), usually around 108-110 degrees.  You posted some specs for some Schneider cams that went out to 112 and what I noticed with your dyno sim plots of those is what I would expect from a cam with a wider LSA - a flatter torque curve that starts earlier in the
RPM range but doesn't have quite as much peak torque.

This is what makes me REALLY want to see some verifiable info on the stock cams.  Most stock cams for GM engines from GM use really wide LSAs because they provide smooth idle and good low speed operation with broad torque bands.  Aftermarket cams typically use narrower LSAs, often a lot narrower, because if you're building a race car with a loose torque converter and steep rear gears you want to build the engine to make maximum power and set the drivetrain up so the engine stays close to its peak powerband while running down the strip.  Idle quality and low-speed torque and drivability aren't much of a consideration.

If the Toyota factory cams are on narrow LSAs, say 108 or 110 there could be several reasons for that.

Anyway, that's my brain-dump at lunchtime.   Gotta get back to work.

[Gnarly4X]

As far as heads and porting go...

...

Hey that’s good stuff!

So we could get into the weeds on this, and it IS fun.  And there is a whole lot more to talk about.

However….my years of research on the available Toyota 20/22 cam profiles I’ve compared and tested – only in my software so far - and discussed with a few suppliers and grinders, Toyota engine builders, and the anecdotal feedback from the guys who actively participate on these forums, I think I have more questions than answers about what it really takes to get 10, 20, 30, or more added HP and torque out a little 144 cubic inch stock 22....... that WE can afford and makes sense and still be able to drive the vehicle every day.

Perhaps the difference with our 30+ year old Toyota engines is that they’re not as popular as a “race” engine like a Chevy, Mopar, Pontiac, or Ford.  So the effort to uncover and test for more juice is probably only interested by a very small group of devoted early Toyota owners.  It’s interesting that Toyota has really created some attention in NASCAR racing.

There is some debate amongst the “experts” about flow bench testing, methodologies, how many inches of water column is the most accurate, and extrapolating from 10” to 28” is still mathematics.  Then, like you said, how do you translate those hours of porting and those precious cfms that show up on your flow bench into a calculated gain without really understanding the effects of a cam profile or exhaust flow technology?  That’s where the race guys that can afford to do dyno testing to get their “education”.

For me, it’s mostly over my head and I just try to use my basic understanding and gut feelings to make my best guess. 

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

Hey Gnarly,

Have you looked at the Crower cams?  Crower makes high quality stuff.  Some interesting grinds here.  Notice the wide LSA for EFI vs. narrow but requiring high compression for carb:

https://www.crower.com/camshafts.html?cat=1068

Hmmm, and I just went and looked at the Schneider cams.  They have wider LSAs for the EFI applications vs. narrower for carb, too.

Thing is, there's no reason you couldn't run the wider LSA in a carb'd engine.  Spreading out the lobe centers increases vacuum and idle quality and decreases overlap.  It tends to flatten the torque curve.  Honestly, I'd rather have a fairly flat torque curve with more torque down low than go for peak torque and give up torque down low.

"Area under the curve" is where it's at for a truck you drive a lot.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey Gnarly,

Have you looked at the Crower cams?  Crower makes high quality stuff.  Some interesting grinds here.  Notice the wide LSA for EFI vs. narrow but requiring high compression for carb:

https://www.crower.com/camshafts.html?cat=1068

Hmmm, and I just went and looked at the Schneider cams.  They have wider LSAs for the EFI applications vs. narrower for carb, too.

Thing is, there's no reason you couldn't run the wider LSA in a carb'd engine.  Spreading out the lobe centers increases vacuum and idle quality and decreases overlap.  It tends to flatten the torque curve.  Honestly, I'd rather have a fairly flat torque curve with more torque down low than go for peak torque and give up torque down low.

"Area under the curve" is where it's at for a truck you drive a lot.

Yes, I've looked at the Crower cams.

I agree that the increase in throttle response in a broader RPM range is better for daily driving.  And for me its between 2500 and 3500, with a need for added HP at 4500 when I needed to down shift on long up hill grades while I was loaded down for a 4-day week end event.  Since I had a Marlin Crawler, the issue with torque didn't really matter to me because 98% of my 4-wheeling was rock crawling.  Some long steep hill climbs and the sand dunes is where I missed that upper RPM juice and would love to have had another 20 HP!

The Schneider profiles are very interesting and the difference in LSA for carb vs EFI makes me really curious about what they know.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

..... When I was blathering about cams earlier I mentioned that I thought the specs would be in the FSM and was surprised they were so hard to find...

Hey Plainview,


Since I was in my Toyota dealer to buy an oil filter and tranny fluid for my Corolla, I decided to ask the Service Manager if he had access to ANY specs on a factory Toyota 22R camshaft.  He asked "What do you mean by specs?"   I said "You know, like lift, duration, lobe separation angle."  He looked at me with dazed eyes, like he had no idea what I was asking for!  I said: "Try 1994, I think Toyota was still selling vehicles with the 22RE".  He said "We don't have any information on that".  I said:  "You mean you have no access to any web site or any technical libraries?"  He started to look up on his computer and pulled up what looked like factory FSM.  He said:  "Do you mean tolerances?"  I said:  "Nope, just the camshaft profile data."  He acted like that was asking for a secret design or something!  He wanted to know what I would do with that information.  I told him I just do research on camshaft performance to increase power in a 22RE engine.

He acted clueless.

I said:  "Thank you for trying".

So... I don't know where else accept perhaps Toyota Corporation to find the actual published cam specs.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Some of the aftermarket "stock" replacement cams have a little data available.  Look on ebay and such and you will find some that list lift and duration, etc.

[Mudder]

Why not find someone you can ship it to and have them tell you?

[Gnarly4X]

Some of the aftermarket "stock" replacement cams have a little data available.  Look on ebay and such and you will find some that list lift and duration, etc.

Yes, but I don't see any specs?  Should I question... "stock replacement"?.... what does that mean?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

 

Why not find someone you can ship it to and have them tell you?

I've measured and calculated the base circle and max lobe lift and the cam from my 22RE is spot on.

The Engine Analyzer software will calculate other specs.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

So what are those specs?

[Gnarly4X]

So what are those specs?

What would you do with them? 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

So what are those specs?

Sorry.. I forgot to post them...   

I'll do it tonight.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

So what are those specs?

Here ya go....  no charge 

Toyota 22R/22RE Camshaft Specs

TOTAL CAM ADVANCE 0 Straight Up

INTAKE
Intake Centerline deg ATDC 110
Duration @ .050”  210
Open @.050” BTDC  -5
Close @ .050” ABDC 35
Max Lob Lift, in .273
Lash at Valve, in .008
Rocker Ratio 1.457
Calculated Lobe Separation 110.0
Gross Valve Lift, in IN  .398

EXHAUST
Exhaust Centerline deg BTDC 110
Duration @ .050”  210
Open @.050” BBDC  35
Close @ .050” ATDC -5
Max Lob Lift, in .264
Lash at Valve, in .012
Rocker Ratio 1.457
Calculated Lobe Separation 110.0
Gross Valve Lift, in EX  .385

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I just sent Jim at 22re Performance a bunch of cam and rocker cores and he is sending me I think his 272 grind and some valve springs.  Supposed to be a higher rpm profile.  I plan to use it on my "pinky" 20R/22R build, which will probably be next year...

[Gnarly4X]

I just sent Jim at 22re Performance a bunch of cam and rocker cores and he is sending me I think his 272 grind and some valve springs.  Supposed to be a higher rpm profile.  I plan to use it on my "pinky" 20R/22R build, which will probably be next year...

Can you get the cam specs for that cam?  I would love to see them!

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I will get them if at all possible.

[Plainview]

I've measured and calculated the base circle and max lobe lift and the cam from my 22RE is spot on.

The Engine Analyzer software will calculate other specs.

Gnarls.

Am I missing something?  How can a program possibly calculate duration and lobe position specs from nothing but base circle size and lobe lift?

I'm going to have to figure out how to mount my degree wheel to a 22R.   That would be the best way short of an actual cam grinding machine to get meaningful numbers.

Went on a 4-day camping trip last Thurs - Sun and it showed I still have work to do on the Xtra cab - the engine sounds like it has timing chain slap, it tried to overheat going up Snoqualmie Pass, and 5th gear started making noise.  If I'm going to do the timing chain, might as well get the degree wheel on there and see what it can tell me about the stock cam.

[Gnarly4X]

Am I missing something?  How can a program possibly calculate duration and lobe position specs from nothing but base circle size and lobe lift?

I'm going to have to figure out how to mount my degree wheel to a 22R.   That would be the best way short of an actual cam grinding machine to get meaningful numbers.

Went on a 4-day camping trip last Thurs - Sun and it showed I still have work to do on the Xtra cab - the engine sounds like it has timing chain slap, it tried to overheat going up Snoqualmie Pass, and 5th gear started making noise.  If I'm going to do the timing chain, might as well get the degree wheel on there and see what it can tell me about the stock cam.

Magic!

Gnarls.

[Plainview]

Magic!

Gnarls.

LOL... but seriously...

[:)bestgen4runner]

Am I missing something?  How can a program possibly calculate duration and lobe position specs from nothing but base circle size and lobe lift?

I'm going to have to figure out how to mount my degree wheel to a 22R.   That would be the best way short of an actual cam grinding machine to get meaningful numbers.

Went on a 4-day camping trip last Thurs - Sun and it showed I still have work to do on the Xtra cab - the engine sounds like it has timing chain slap, it tried to overheat going up Snoqualmie Pass, and 5th gear started making noise.  If I'm going to do the timing chain, might as well get the degree wheel on there and see what it can tell me about the stock cam.

[Gnarly4X]

LOL... but seriously...

OK, seriously.  You are correct.  The software cannot calculate other specs from only the lobe lift and base circle measurements.

The program can calculate the LSA (Lobe Separation Angle) from the Intake Centerline and the Exhaust Centerline.

For example, if you know the ICL is 106 degrees and the ECL is 112 degrees, the program will calculate 109 degrees for the Lobe Separation Angle.  The program does not allow user input for the LSA… I’m not sure why.  The algorithms used and how the mathematic calculations are programmed is above my pay grade.

The software can calculate 100s of data values.

The attachment is just 1 page of data that the program will produce!

Gnarls.