Topic: Thinking about getting bigger cam??

[Gnarly4X]

let me know the specs, lift, duration, lobe center lines and stuff.

79coyotefrg,

Do you want to know the profile specs for engbldr 261C cam??

I would like to know the cam specs on the camshaft you noted in your video clip....

"LCE's Stage 2 racing cam.  thats 290* duration and .460 lift."

In my past research on camshafts, I've noticed that some supplier's advertised specs are wrong, and sometimes change from what is advertised when you go to buy one, even though their part number is the same.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

Changing the ring & pinion would provide a gearing advantage so having more power might not be necessary.  The goal is better overall performance.  You can get this my doing modifications to increase you horsepower and torque or you can reduce the load on your current engine. Smaller tires or improved gearing are both ways to do this but I am sure you don't want smaller tires.

My 4.88 ring & pinion with 35s are mathematically the gearing equivalent of stock tires and gearing. I the extra weight of the tires and rolling resistance clearly put me at a disadvantage compared to being stock, but if I still had 4.10 gearing I would expect it to take a significant increase in horsepower and torque (i.e. swap) to achieve similar performance results.

[Gnarly4X]

Changing the ring & pinion would provide a gearing advantage so having more power might not be necessary.  The goal is better overall performance. 

I guess it's just a matter of perspective.  But, just looking at the math, and cost per increase in power....

Spending $600 for ring & pinions and 8 hours to move my 149 lbs of peak stock torque up to 3400 RPMs is not the same as spending $112 and 2 hours to gain 2 to 5 lbs of added torque between 2900 and 3400 RPM.  Also there will be a great advantage of increased torque and HP from 2900 RPM to 5900 RPM! - not that I'd tac it to 5,900 very often.  Before this rebuild, I took my truck to 5 grand every day getting on freeway in 1st and 2nd gears.  Having 10 lbs of extra torque and 8 HP at 5,000 RPM will be a huge difference in throttle response!!  When passing and dropping down to 4th gear, I will have a very noticeable increase in throttle response and power over the stock numbers.  When driving on steep long upgrades, it will be nice not to have to shift down the 3rd gear and keep the engine at 4,500 RPM for 5 minutes.

Since the power curve, especially torque numbers, for a stock 22RE starts dropping significantly after about 3600, with lower ratio R&Ps I may run out of RPMs before I reach my desired MPH in every gear.

TJMWO. 

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

I guess it's just a matter of perspective.  But, just looking at the math, and cost per increase in power....

Spending $600 for ring & pinions and 8 hours to move my 149 lbs of peak stock torque up to 3400 RPMs is not the same as spending $112 and 2 hours to gain 2 to 5 lbs of added torque between 2900 and 3400 RPM.  Also there will be a great advantage of increased torque and HP from 2900 RPM to 5900 RPM! - not that I'd tac it to 5,900 very often.  Before this rebuild, I took my truck to 5 grand every day getting on freeway in 1st and 2nd gears.  Having 10 lbs of extra torque and 8 HP at 5,000 RPM will be a huge difference in throttle response!!  When passing and dropping down to 4th gear, I will have a very noticeable increase in throttle response and power over the stock numbers.  When driving on steep long upgrades, it will be nice not to have to shift down the 3rd gear and keep the engine at 4,500 RPM for 5 minutes.

Since the power curve, especially torque numbers, for a stock 22RE starts dropping significantly after about 3600, with lower ratio R&Ps I may run out of RPMs before I reach my desired MPH in every gear.

TJMWO. 

Gnarls.

Do both in parallel and I'd guess the performance gained from regearing would be a more significant improvement.

You're looking at a smaller change so it might be closer than trying to add power to make up for a significant tire size upgrade.

[79coyotefrg]

79coyotefrg,

Do you want to know the profile specs for engbldr 261C cam??

I would like to know the cam specs on the camshaft you noted in your video clip....

"LCE's Stage 2 racing cam.  thats 290* duration and .460 lift."

In my past research on camshafts, I've noticed that some supplier's advertised specs are wrong, and sometimes change from what is advertised when you go to buy one, even though their part number is the same.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

261 C Crawler Cam Specs

Valve Lift In/Ex .410
Adv. Dur 261
Dur @ .050 222 deg
Lobe Center 110 deg
Overlap 6 deg
Intake Opens 3 Deg BTDC
Intake Closes 41 deg ABDC
Exhaust Opens 41 deg BBDC
Exhaust Closes 3 deg ATDC
Valve Lash .007 In .009 Ex

[Mudder]

But if we're talking about drop in cam's 79coyotefrg's is not the one for you. You'd have to run LCE's kit to beef up your head and then get the valve guides honed for proper clearance. But it is a wonderful cam.

[Gnarly4X]

Do both in parallel and I'd guess the performance gained from regearing would be a more significant improvement.

You're looking at a smaller change so it might be closer than trying to add power to make up for a significant tire size upgrade.

I'm looking for as big a power increase as I can get for the buck, and specifically in torque.

Not to beat up the topic, but it is an interesting discussion....  Regearing would not give me any more power.  I can use 4th gear to get the RPM up to a higher torque number.

Spending the money for a gear change, would not be my first choice.  I'd rather spend $112 for the cam, and $600 for a header, 2.25" exhaust tubing, a free flow cat, and a turbo muffler.  THEN, I'd have the increased power I want and would not need to change my gear ratio.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

But if we're talking about drop in cam's 79coyotefrg's is not the one for you. You'd have to run LCE's kit to beef up your head and then get the valve guides honed for proper clearance. But it is a wonderful cam.

Hey Mudder,

In the past, I have not been a big fan of LCE's cams, although they may be excellent profiles.  That profile appears to move the total cam timing 8 degrees advanced with the 102 and 118 lobe centers.  That profile would not be one of my choices for this engine rebuild.  But... just for grins I'll run some numbers on it and see what it shows.

Gnarls.

[Snowtoy]

Hi Snowtoy,

LOL…. Your posts read like a person possibly with H.A.S. (Hyper Analytical Syndrome)… I have it. 

 It’s not necessarily a bad thing and seems to be found more often in people with extra brain cells and higher I.Qs. 

Side effect of my education and original career choice.

I did not know about tire sizes not being actual? 

Wasn't an issue anyone thought about, until IIRC Interco made it a marketing issue 10-15yrs ago, some manufactures have upped their mounted sizes to be closure to their sidewall size, others have not.  Overall height is also effected by the rim size, and overall tire diameter, my BFG 33's and 35's both on 15x10's measure 31 and 33 inches, yet the

I’m sure you’ve watched a funny car burn out.  You noticed the tire diameter expanding radically.  That’s what happens, to a lesser degree, to tires running down the freeway at 75 MPH.  Right now my 31” BFGs measure 30” diameter, but they have been sitting for 3 ½ years, and may be a little low on air pressure? I’d make a good guess that if I could measure my tire diameter at 75 MPH that they would be more that 31” in diameter?

Not quite the same thing, dragster tires are usually filled with less than 15ps, most under 10psi, and use nitrogen since it is wont expand much/if at all under heat.

At 80 MPH my 31s are running down the freeway at about 15 revolutions per second, and in this Arizona 100+ air temp, plus the pavement will get 170+ degree F, I would think that BFG rubber is expanding.

If this was happening, there should be a noticeable power loss at that speed, and your speedometer should be off more than just the % between the stock 225's(27") and your 31's.

Your idea to “buy-low-swap-sell-salvage” is not a bad idea, but at my age my clock is speeding up and I’m much more lazy and slower than I was at age 42 - which was my peak! :-

I hear ya, but there is a member on here w/a front IFS section in So.Cal, that can get you halfway.
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100092.msg247122;topicseen#new

With both my 22R/RE pickups, I never changed the ring & pinion, just ran the stock 4.10s.  I ran 33s on my 85 22R and that did cause a gear ratio issue.  1st gear starts were sluggish and 5th gear was sometimes not useable, and had to use 4th.  But, I got used to it. Since I had lockers front and rear and Marlin Crawler, doing a R&P swap would have been the hot ticket, looking back I’m not sure why I did not.

True. most find 31's and 4.10's tolerable/livable, for the most part, and with the fresh rebuild it may perform just fine.

As I mentioned, yes, a R&P change to lower gearing will be noticeable on your butt dyno, and can move the peak torque to a more useable RPM, BUT…. it still doesn’t increase any power.

On doing an R&R on camshaft, I have only done that while doing a head job.  We have read about guys that have done it without any issues with the head gasket.

It would interesting if the guys that have done cam swaps without moving the head, could comment on that, as I would like to do some cam swaps and dyno tests in the future with my truck.

R&Ring a head on 22RE is WAAAYYY more time consuming compared to just removing the rocker cover, removing the cam sprocket, un-torquing the head bolts, lifting the rocker rack, removing the 3 cam bearing caps, lifting off the camshaft, and then re-assembling.  I could be wrong about that, but that’s how I envision it.

Gnarls.

If you are going to test different cams, then I would wait until you have bought the different cams you are considering, swapone in, tune/dyno, then repeat with the others, after you fond one you want, redo the HG.

One thing you have to remember, often theoretical power/performance gains on paper don't often transfer to the real world, which is why, as you have found, cam manufactures don't/wont state HP gains, only "x"%, nor do many post dyno runs.

I'm looking for as big a power increase as I can get for the buck, and specifically in torque.

Not to beat up the topic, but it is an interesting discussion....  Regearing would not give me any more power.  I can use 4th gear to get the RPM up to a higher torque number.

Spending the money for a gear change, would not be my first choice.  I'd rather spend $112 for the cam, and $600 for a header, 2.25" exhaust tubing, a free flow cat, and a turbo muffler.  THEN, I'd have the increased power I want and would not need to change my gear ratio.

Gnarls.

Once you get the rebuilt in, you should dyno the truck with a set of 225's and the 31's to see what the actual hp/tq loss is, it would give you a number to test your mods against.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi Snowtoy,

“Not quite the same thing, dragster tires are usually filled with less than 15ps, most under 10psi, and use nitrogen since it is wont expand much/if at all under heat.”

Nitrogen is used in tires primarily to avoid the water vapor content that is in our air, which is about 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen.  With nitrogen, the fluctuation in air pressure with temperature change is reduced as well as fluctuation in nitrogen gas temperature.

“If this was happening, there should be a noticeable power loss at that speed, and your speedometer should be off more than just the % between the stock 225's(27") and your 31's.”

Yes, if my 31” tire diameter increases at 80 MPH to say 32”, then the final gear ration will also change, and it may be noticeable, mathematically it will be decrease between 80 and 90 RPMs on my tach.


"I hear ya, but there is a member on here w/a front IFS section in So.Cal, that can get you halfway.
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100092.msg247122;topicseen#new"

Yeah if I were 40 years of age…… Well as I said, I’m just not into the “work-on-my-truck-every-weekend-guy” I was 15 years ago. 

“True. most find 31's and 4.10's tolerable/livable, for the most part, and with the fresh rebuild it may perform just fine.”

I’m hopeful that this rebuild, 020” over bore, slight increase in compression ratio, new head with 261C cam, larger valves, rebuilt injectors, and new larger exhaust system will meet my expectations.

“If you are going to test different cams, then I would wait until you have bought the different cams you are considering, swapone in, tune/dyno, then repeat with the others, after you fond one you want, redo the HG.”


Yeah, that would be a logical way to test the camshafts.  I imagine I’d want to drive the truck with each cam for a while after it’s been on the dyno.  Since I have about 3 camshafts I’m mostly interested in testing, I’ll have to start a cam-kitty.

“One thing you have to remember, often theoretical power/performance gains on paper don't often transfer to the real world, which is why, as you have found, cam manufactures don't/wont state HP gains, only "x"%, nor do many post dyno runs.”

I realize that my dyno software produces projected and somewhat theoretical data, however it happens to be one of the most respected dyno software programs available.

And, yes, you can dyno an engine on a Superflow SF-902S and read gobs of data, then install that engine in a race car and the driver will experience something different.  But, in the absence of any certified dyno tests on the camshafts that are advertised, I’ll just have to make some assumptions and test them myself on a local chassis dyno.  Advertising and marketing claims are often more Bravo Sierra than actual facts.

“Once you get the rebuilt in, you should dyno the truck with a set of 225's and the 31's to see what the actual hp/tq loss is, it would give you a number to test your mods against.”

I stated that I have BFG’, that’s what I ran mostly in the past. Now I have a set of Michelins:  http://www.michelinman.com/US/en/tires/31/10__5/15/109/R.html

I don’t want to run tires smaller than 31s, so there would be no point to buy or borrow a set of smaller tires just to dyno test.

Good discussion. 

Gnarls. 

[79coyotefrg]

But if we're talking about drop in cam's 79coyotefrg's is not the one for you. You'd have to run LCE's kit to beef up your head and then get the valve guides honed for proper clearance. But it is a wonderful cam.

um you sure about that?  because I've been running this cam for 14 years in a 20R head and a 22R head and Ive never used any "beef kit" and no you dont have to 'hone' the valve guides.   where did you hear that??
 the ONLY thing I had to do with this cam is some clearancing of the pistons.

[79coyotefrg]

Hey Mudder,

In the past, I have not been a big fan of LCE's cams, although they may be excellent profiles.  That profile appears to move the total cam timing 8 degrees advanced with the 102 and 118 lobe centers.  That profile would not be one of my choices for this engine rebuild.  But... just for grins I'll run some numbers on it and see what it shows.

Gnarls.

a few years ago my daughters 88 4runner broke down 50 miles from here. She called and I headed west in my truck with a trailer.  Son in law winched the 4runner on the trailer and we strapped it down. Trailer and runner was probably 4500-5000 lbs.  when we crossed the river there was a long steep hill.  We crested that hill at 45mph and when I double clutched to 4th gear she told me via CB that cresting that long hill under that load I was shooting 3 feet of flame from my exhaust.   I grinned and mashed on it. never hit a hill on the way back here that I needed to drop out of 4th.   

[Gnarly4X]

Hi Snowtoy,

I re-read your comments and you indicate that there is POWER loss or gain with gear changes.  Perhaps its just semantics?

Its my understanding that changing ring & pinions to lower the gear ratio or changing tire sizes which affect final gear ratio, has zero effect on the torque or horsepower numbers produced by the engine.  Changing gear ratios will only move the torque and HP numbers up and down the RPM range.

For example, the result of changing from 4.10 R&P to 4.88s when going from 28" tires to 33" tires will have a very noticeable "feel" of power increase because the gearing will put the higher torque number in a more usable RPM range.

I could be totally wrong - and if I am - please explain. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

a few years ago.... We crested that hill at 45mph and when I double clutched to 4th gear she told me via CB that cresting that long hill under that load I was shooting 3 feet of flame from my exhaust.   I grinned and mashed on it. never hit a hill on the way back here that I needed to drop out of 4th.   

Hey 79coyotefrg,

You have my curiosity working here.  So you were in 5th gear at 45 MPH before cresting the hill and then shifted down to 4th gear?

Would you mind helping me with details on your truck?

I read about your LCE cam and you're running a Weber 32/36 -  what else have you done to your engine?

What is your ring & pinion? 

What size tires and rims are you running?

I did a very quick check on that cam and your engine based on your initial comments and it looks like it produces some very big torque and HP numbers in the higher RPM range.  I would like to plug in some more accurate data and then do some mock pulls on my dyno software.

Then, if you want, we can compare your "BD" (butt dyno) with my "DD" (desktop dyno).
Thanks,

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

um you sure about that?  because I've been running this cam for 14 years in a 20R head and a 22R head and Ive never used any "beef kit" and no you dont have to 'hone' the valve guides.   where did you hear that??
 the ONLY thing I had to do with this cam is some clearancing of the pistons.

Quoted that directly off of LCE's site. It says "WARNING: LCE highly recommends using our Pro Camshaft Kit Part# 1020000 in order to allow proper spring retainer to guide clearance for any cam that has over .450" lift or in any application that requires a sustained RPM of 6,000 or higher" and that cam has .460 of lift. It also says on their site to hone valve guides to proper clearance.

[Gnarly4X]

Quoted that directly off of LCE's site. It says "WARNING: LCE highly recommends using our Pro Camshaft Kit Part# 1020000 in order to allow proper spring retainer to guide clearance for any cam that has over .450" lift or in any application that requires a sustained RPM of 6,000 or higher" and that cam has .460 of lift. It also says on their site to hone valve guides to proper clearance.

I have been all over LCE's site many times.  I've been down to Lake Havasu City toured their shop and talked to the guys.    I read the same thing when I was looking for the cam specs.

At least two things are possible... 1 - that cam profile 14 years ago was different, an 2 - LCE discovered through mechanical failures or other information, that they needed to add the kit and mods to use this cam profile.   

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I regards to the ring and pinion vs. engine upgrade discussion:  I have tossed some cash at cams, headers, 3RZ swaps and other tweaks at these trucks over the years and my experience has been that no amount of power upgrades will take the place of proper gearing.  Also I have had a hard time noticing the perceivable gains from power upgrades unless I am in the sweet spot in gearing, if that makes any sense.

I have never built anything as hot as Glen's engines though.

All this being said 31" tires are not that big.  I will be curious to see how you like your engine and cam with the 31s and 4.10s.  I would guess it will be pretty tolerable.

My personal favorite for 31s are the 4.37 gears found in 1st gens or the 4.30s from auto/22re IFS 4runners.

[Mudder]

I'm running a freshly rebuilt engine , 31's, 261 C cam, chromoly connecting rods, and have 4.56's. I can run ,70 all day long in 4th gear below 4k rpm's. I will be interested in seeing how it does on my next trip to Salem. I took my last engine down there before it snapped a rod. I still have the stock exhaust and my timing is set at 8* BTDC.

[Gnarly4X]

I'm running a freshly rebuilt engine , 31's, 261 C cam, chromoly connecting rods, and have 4.56's. I can run ,70 all day long in 4th gear below 4k rpm's. I will be interested in seeing how it does on my next trip to Salem. I took my last engine down there before it snapped a rod. I still have the stock exhaust and my timing is set at 8* BTDC.

Is your tranny a 5 speed?

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

5 speed W56B, I prefer to not use 5th gear as 4th is better suited with the rpm range I like to be in. Also that 70 is achieved without ever going over 4k.

[Gnarly4X]

.. that no amount of power upgrades will take the place of proper gearing....

Hi H8PVMNT,

Yeah... I guess it's what is "proper" for me.  I've always run larger tires and NOT changed R&Ps and felt the sluggishness, but it never bothered me that much.  Again, I want more power.  I also want to be able to use my 4th gear when traveling at freeway speeds (here the speed limit is mostly 75 MPH), going up grades and bucking the winds we have here quite often.  With my stock 4.10s and 4th gear, 31" tires, I will be right where I'm comfortable at 70 to 75 MPH at 3100 to 3500 RPM with this cam producing peak torque.

When I figure cost per increase in torque, there's only one way to get that and it's NOT with re-gearing.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Yup, where you live and how/where you drive has so much to do with what you will run for tire/gear combos and what is and what isn't acceptable.  I am pretty interested to hear your driving impressions of the 261C and your setup.

[Gnarly4X]

....  I am pretty interested to hear your driving impressions of the 261C and your setup.

Yes! Me too!

[79coyotefrg]

Hey 79coyotefrg,

You have my curiosity working here.  So you were in 5th gear at 45 MPH before cresting the hill and then shifted down to 4th gear?

Would you mind helping me with details on your truck?

I read about your LCE cam and you're running a Weber 32/36 -  what else have you done to your engine?

What is your ring & pinion? 

What size tires and rims are you running?

I did a very quick check on that cam and your engine based on your initial comments and it looks like it produces some very big torque and HP numbers in the higher RPM range.  I would like to plug in some more accurate data and then do some mock pulls on my dyno software.

Then, if you want, we can compare your "BD" (butt dyno) with my "DD" (desktop dyno).
Thanks,

Gnarls.

no when I crested that long hill I was at 5000-ish rpm in 3rd then dropped into 4th and rolled on down the two lane

35 PitBull Rocker radials on 15x10 eagle alloys, 5.29's, rear elocker converted to cable, slightly elongated oiling holes in the 20R rocker rail with 22R rockers.
no reason then to change the depth of the valve guides, seats or stems but I always put a 5 angle grind on my valves and port my own heads with some "custom" stuff done to my intake.

 I asked Carl at LC back then what the kit involved.  I already had new 22R rockers and ran dual valve springs a while but had problems with the adjusters splintering off under the rocker where it rode on the valve stem  and after designing a double roller rocker with an adjustment and made a mock up out of wood and one from clay  my dad passed away and then I had "the wreck" so I just dialed back a hair, installed 20R springs and never looked back.   
that kit is what you have to run to be able to claim on the warranty. doesnt mean you HAVE to run it to make it work.
OH I have an ifs rear axle LC rotors and IFS calipers on the front, 1/4 wall sliders, 3 inch c channel driven in the rear frame rails with a 8 pound sledge, another 3 inch channel across the back for a bumper and a receiver from a 95 4Runner for trailering.  front bumper is a 1/4 wall flat box bumper with 3/8 plate in places with a WARN 9000.
she weighs right at 4500lbs and can out run any stock truck at over a 1000 pounds lighter.
About 4 maybe 5 years ago I made a trip north and from FtSmith AR to Fayetteville the grade is rediculous.  A friend that had a stock Tacoma with 3rz and 5 speed with stock tires said with anything more than laundry in the bed he would have to grab 3rd in places rev it out to redline then shift to 4th and try to hold.  My truck pulled a 1000 pound trailer (84 toyota bed with a couple axles a piece of 4runner floor a a couple doors and I think a 22R and a five speed plus tcase in the back of my truck.   Up that grade I held 70 mph in 4th gear.

[79coyotefrg]

I'll also admit that my 32/36 has some slightly larger jets and at just the right spot in the torque curve that secondary jumps in and gives it hell.

[79coyotefrg]

yall got to know I bought a little truck on 31's with 4.37's and a weak little side shift 4 speed in 1995.  CRAP  its been twenty freekin years?? 

I went from 32's and 4.37's to 35's and 5.29's and it made some difference but not a lot.  I had a LC header already but started cutting valves.  I couldnt figure it out but then talked to a old friend of my dad's and he asked me. "every time it does this were you full throttle?" well yeah I drive it like its a stolen race car. He told me to pull that carb I had (stock 20R carb) off and throw it in the junk pile.  First I got the weber i'm running now. once it was tuned in it made a HUGE difference but I had the header and cam at that point so it was starving for fuel.

[79coyotefrg]

Gnarly I have desktopdyno but its for XP and I have windows 8 
when I ran the numbers and spend some time carefully getting REAL cc amounts of combustion chamber by placing the head upside down, filling with antifreeze then sitting a piston on a old gasket for a 20 r onto the head so it squished.  then sucked up the remainder with a syringe.  I think I was at 82cc

.060 over size bore 90mm stroke, (custom cut done when I had money)

[emsvitil]

Desktop dyno 2000 and 2003 will run on win 8.1........

[Gnarly4X]

For those that may be interested... the software I've use since 1999 is by Performance Trends - Engine Analyzer v3.2 running on Window XP.  I've spent WAY more time inside that program than anyone probably should.  Some of the data I'm still not sure I fully understand what it means?  It was a gift from my nephew who is a Mopar expert, and has been building hemi engines and restoring early Cudda's and Challengers for about 35 years.  He has also owned several Toyota trucks.

Gnarls.