Topic: Long crank time when cold?

[DieselD]

title says it all, I am having issues with extended crank time when started first thing in the morning or after sitting for a few hours.  It will kinda stumble for a few seconds and then is fine. Hot restarts are prefectly fine. engine runs great other than this. My first thought is fuel pump  not holding pressure KOEO but found thats not the case.  what else can cause this? pressure regulator?

oh and its an 86 22re.

[*ROKTOY*]

Cold start injector

[fordh8r]

  I had a very similar problem on a 4.0l jeep. It turned out to be the pump.   (I know, I know, it's not a JEEP)  

  Assuming you have no fuel leaks, if you have a fuel pressure gauge to check fuel pressure you can watch the pressure when you first start the engine. It should hold pressure after you shut it off. If the pressure is dropping off you can pinch off the return line from the regulator to the tank so no fuel will get past the regulator and eliminate it in the fuel circuit. NOTE: This may take a while depending on the time it takes for it to hard start. Could be 15 mins or even over night. Just be patient.  

  If the pressure holds then, regulator is suspect. If not,then more likely a fuel pump. If there was an injector leaking it most likely would flood a single cylinder and misfire badly when you first fire it up (and black smoke). If you have access to a gas analyzer you can look at the readings to see if an injector could be causing the pressure loss since it should be leaking and cause higher emissions.

  You could even pinch off the fuel line from the pump to the fuel rail after shut down to see if the pressure bleeds off. If no pressure loss, then the pump is highly suspect. If pressure is lost then a bad injector is certain.

  If it turns out to be an injector, then... which one?...you ask. That will take disassembly and inspection to know for sure. You might find puddled fuel in the intake runner of the injector that was leaking or even possibly a runner that is way cleaner than the others or you may ultimately decide to replace them all since they are all of the same age and mileage. Hope something here helps you find your problem or at least leads you in the right direction.

[DieselD [OP]]

Cold start injector

I was wondering if it had one of those, however I am not to familar with how they work.

I know its not the pump since I already replaced it. 95% of the time thats what it is on fords at least. yeah I know its not one but shame on me for thinking it would be close to the same concern. haha.

I dont think its a stuck open intjector. its runs too good for one and doesnt have the symptoms

[*ROKTOY*]

Need to get an FSM this has how to check it  and other things.

[DieselD [OP]]

I have been wanting one but havent had much luck finding them. I got a hayes that came with the truck which I absolute hate!

[*ROKTOY*]

Try ebay I always see them for sale there. Also you can do a search and download the 85 FSM which is pretty much the same as an 86 except for the IFS part.

[*ROKTOY*]

OK go to the link and download the 85 FSM http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=8872.0

[DieselD [OP]]

awsome thanks! I am downloading it now.

I found some interesting info on pirate I am going to check too

[Hyena]

mine had problems almost like that.  turned out to be the distributor cap.  the points were worn. 

[fordh8r]

95% of the time thats what it is on fords at least. haha.

The other 5% it's something else on a ford = 100% broken one way or another. 

I know its not the pump since I already replaced it.

DO, keep an open mind here  , DON'T get caught with the mentality that "because it's new it can't be the problem". We have a saying in this industry,"Just cuz it's new doesn't mean it's any good". A new one can fail as well as an old one It's still the same piece. This is why we have warranties. 

[DieselD [OP]]

also I should note this passes emmisions just fine, I took it through about a week ago.

[DieselD [OP]]

The other 5% it's something else on a ford = 100% broken one way or another. 

DO, keep an open mind here  , DON'T get caught with the mentality that "because it's new it can't be the problem". We have a saying in this industry,"Just cuz it's new doesn't mean it's any good". A new one can fail as well as an old one It's still the same piece. This is why we have warranties. 

I know all to well how that goes.....

guess I should clarify a little about myself. I have been working as a technician for ford going on 8years now. I started chaning oil, went to fomoco training program and now have my ford senior master and ase master certs. I have done alot of gas performance and now working on strickly diesels currently. so yeah I have a little automotive knowledege. I just havent had any toyota experence or way old EFI experence. I am a little young I guess, I mostly deal with EEC V and newer vehicles at work. I know I can fix it just need a little direction and known concerns first. That FSM is helping alot too, I am reading it now.

[fordh8r]

I know all to well how that goes.....

guess I should clarify a little about myself. I have been working as a technician for ford going on 8years now. I started chaning oil, went to fomoco training program and now have my ford senior master and ase master certs. I have done alot of gas performance and now working on strickly diesels currently. so yeah I have a little automotive knowledege. I just havent had any toyota experence or way old EFI experence. I am a little young I guess, I mostly deal with EEC V and newer vehicles at work. I know I can fix it just need a little direction and known concerns first. That FSM is helping alot too, I am reading it now.

None of the info offered was in anyway to insult your level of expertise or experience. I too can appreciate your involvement in the industry as I have been wrenching now for quite a few years in many private shops and a dealership as well ranging in light duty to heavy duty vehicles and equipment without a career change of any kind or the desire to change for that matter. As long as you know this stuff isn't all too hard and rather basic you should be fine given your accomplishments so far. Sounds like you'll get it figured out with the right directions. I've always said, "A good mechanic is like a good driver. Just cause he's never been there doesn't mean he doesn't know how to drive or get around. He just needs directions to save time".    Good luck with your T/S...

[DieselD [OP]]

Never took it as an insult, just wanted to clarify what my level of knowledge was to save time. you would have no idea what my skill level or thought process was.  no need to go over the simple little things that are common sense. sure some people might not know but I know how talking "tech to tech" is compared to someone that might not have any type of experence. no need to "dumb" it up for me.



I ran out to check out a couple things. found my pump jump wire connector. The whole pump not cycling on KOEO is weird to me. gotta be cranking. also found the cold start injector. after seeing the location I have to wonder how much carbon builds up there being mounted in the intake? I am going to remove it and attempt to clean after work and see what happens.

I had a long crank today after driving to work letting it sit 4 hours then going to lunch. its about 105* degrees at that time too so its not a weather thing.

[fordh8r]

Never took it as an insult, just wanted to clarify what my level of knowledge was to save time. you would have no idea what my skill level or thought process was.  no need to go over the simple little things that are common sense. sure some people might not know but I know how talking "tech to tech" is compared to someone that might not have any type of experence. no need to "dumb" it up for me.

It's all good!


Know how I woulda eventually known you were a ford tech? 

The whole pump not cycling on KOEO is weird to me.

Not baggin or anything, I believe ford  is the only OE that i've seen use this acronym. That's all. Nothing wrong with that. Again, good luck fixin it. 

[DieselD [OP]]

Well I kinda checked it out this afternoon. I was able to get a gauge on it and had good pressure and no drop like you would see with a leaking injector or fuel pump. the regulator does its thing too.

 I ohmed the cold start injector and it was ok. i wasn't able to verify it actually working tho. I read somewhere its only in cold temps? its not cold here in AZ.

[lilbuddy]

Mine does the same thing. Mine also is an 86 22re

One day (dont know what I was doing) but I held the key in the start position (with my foot off the clutch and the clutch cancel switch off) and I was in my garage and I could hear the fuel pump working then it got louder then it got to the normal "loudness" that it should be at. Then I pressed the clutch start cancel button and it turned right on. Pretty much I dont know what it is but if you hold the key (at least in my occasion) for like 5 seconds then push in the clutch/button it should start right up. Another 86 22re I worked on had the same problem also.

[DieselD [OP]]

at first that is what mine was doing on a few occasions. however now thats not the case. today I just tryed jumping the pump connector and jumnping in an starting it up. this should have ruled out the maf sensor.(sorry ford term again!) AFM and relay. next I am going to check the thermo switch for the cold start injector. if that seems to be working i am going to yank the upper intake. i have a feeling it might be so carboned up its causing injectors be sluggish for lack of better theory. with talking with some of the old timers around the shop this seemed to be a issue on the early fuel injection engines.

also should note the engine has 198600 miles on orginal engine. PO did some head work around 113k and timing chain and guides around 160-170k i think but thats about it.

[old school toy]

Check engine compression   (cold) 

[lilbuddy]

if that seems to be working i am going to yank the upper intake. i have a feeling it might be so carboned up its causing injectors be sluggish for lack of better theory. with talking with some of the old timers around the shop this seemed to be a issue on the early fuel injection engines.

Yeah id say try that, but my upper and lower intake are spotless. I cleaned them about 5K miles ago (right when I dropped the first motor into my runner) and it still does that.

[DieselD [OP]]

well the thermo switch tests out ok according to the manual. however they only have to test resistance and I have seen sensors test fine like that but still not work so who knows. I am going to test compression tomorrow which I need to do anyway to determine engine condition. If I get time I might pull apart the intake a clean it.

[lilbuddy]

well the thermo switch tests out ok according to the manual. however they only have to test resistance and I have seen sensors test fine like that but still not work so who knows. I am going to test compression tomorrow which I need to do anyway to determine engine condition. If I get time I might pull apart the intake a clean it.

Like I said I dont think cleaning it will do anything with the starting problem. It will however give you a lot more power. It did for me.

[DieselD [OP]]

yeah I have my doubts too, I am however running out of things to check.

yours sounds like a pump problem tho. I have a used good one if you want it

[*ROKTOY*]

Well , I had the same problem, when it would continue to crank I would just stop wait a split second and crank again and would start right up. After doing this for a few months I changed my injector time switch and it has been fine ever since.
   I have a question for you, have you recently drained your cooling system? If so have you refilled it properly? I have heard that if you do not fill it right you can get an air pocket which will cause the time switch to be exposed and not work properly. I know when I changed my switch I filled it the way that was described and it did take awhile to get it totally full.

[DieselD [OP]]

very good question, something I did not think about....

I have not drained it, however it does have decent coolant leak. I keep it full but I bought it knowing this. It also had this cranking problem as well. I am not sure if the PO filled it correctly or not. Its a freeze plug int he back of the motor so I am waiting til I pull the trans do to the doubler and do everything at once. it should happen soon.

is there a vent plug or something I need to pull when filling?

[DieselD [OP]]

so yeah I checked compression today, not so hot but I guess should be expected on an engine with almost 200k.

#1
138
#2
140
#3
140
#4
132

interesting note. I started it this morning with the usual long crank to move it from the drive way to the street. it sat there for a few hours and I went to move it back and fired right up instantly when it shoudl have had an extended crank

[*ROKTOY*]

very good question, something I did not think about....

I have not drained it, however it does have decent coolant leak. I keep it full but I bought it knowing this. It also had this cranking problem as well. I am not sure if the PO filled it correctly or not. Its a freeze plug int he back of the motor so I am waiting til I pull the trans do to the doubler and do everything at once. it should happen soon.

is there a vent plug or something I need to pull when filling?

No, They say to fill it on an incline with the heater control on heat, then run it up to temp let cool and check again do this till you can't put any more coolant in.

[old school toy]

Sounds like it a base engine concern? (Low compression)  I think a good engine should be 170 psi 

[DieselD [OP]]

yeah I know its low but its also even through out the board. the WSM says anywhere bewteen 140-170 I believe. so I am border line. I might be doing that 3RZ swap sooner than later

I would expect more drivablity concerns from a base engine concern tho.