Author Topic: won't start (Read 4675 times)

mtntoy · « **on:** Mar 04, 2005, 04:53:33 PM »

I have been having problems with my 22rte starting, truck runs fine with once started. What used to be a fluke problem has become a every day occurrence. I looked into the cold start injector I don't think that is the problem. I have good spark seems to be a lack of fuel. If I run a hot and ground to the cold start injector it will run, Air/fuel gauge says rich while running off cold start. I have checked fuel pressure/volume everything was in spec with factory manual. Any ideas?

kneedownnate · « **Reply #1 on:** Mar 04, 2005, 10:07:07 PM »

Double check the wiring going to the cold start injector and make sure there are no loose connections, and if need be get a junk yard injector to see if that helps. And make sure all your connectors are clean, you'd be surprised how little corrosion/crud on a connector it takes to cause a problem. If that's not the problem I would suspect a loose connection somewhere else.

BigMike · « **Reply #2 on:** Mar 04, 2005, 10:27:53 PM »

It should still fire up ok even without a cold start inject if everything else is fine.

I say its either a plugged fuel pump or try replacing your battery with a new one. My friends 86' (which also happened to be a turbo) would not start up easily. It would take nearly 10 seconds of cranking before it would fire, and then it would barley get going. We changed everything and nothing fixed the problem until one day his battery died from all of the cranking. So he got a new battery, and like day and night it started firing up immediately. Even today I ate lunch with him and he fired it right up and nearly started quicker than my 3RZ -- all because his old battery was shot.

So if everything else fails, buy a new battery, seriously.

mtntoy · « **Reply #3 on:** Mar 05, 2005, 09:53:11 AM »

I will try a new battery(this one is only about 4 months old though but that doesn't mean its not bad) Mike you think it could be the fuel pump? I tested it this morning while engine was running with a hot and ground going to the cold start gauge said 38lbs and with the engine off and pump on it still 40lbs. It seems to me that it could be a connection somewhere. Who any knows what relay controls the injector circut. It seems to me that either the injectors aren't coming on or the computer is sending an unnecessary fuel limit cut to them? I don't know. I am going to try the battery and review all connections again, thanks for the help.

Mike D · « **Reply #4 on:** Mar 05, 2005, 07:43:26 PM »

I would do a fuel filter and go up to a shop and have them do a fuel system clean, the machine they use is called a carbon clean

kneedownnate · « **Reply #5 on:** Mar 05, 2005, 10:56:59 PM »

Bigmike brought up a point I hadn't considered but one that just affected me the other day. Some efi setups can have enought juice to turn over but not enought to easily start. I just went to my storage unit the other day and attempted to start my bike, the fuel pump sounded fine when I turned the key on but it turned over slowly and didn't wanna start after a few seconds, turned it off and tried again and it didn't have enough juice left to crank over. I charged up the battery and it worked fine again. The most important thing to check with your battery is how well it load tests, even if it charges up to 13 volts it might load test down to 9 and be worthless. Before too much more speculation you should give us more details, is it turning over slowly or normally, does it seem to have resisitance or almost free spin? You don't have a lot of compression already, but if your engine is getting pretty tired you might not have enough compression to cause proper ignition. Good luck and keep us posted.

BigMike · « **Reply #6 on:** Mar 06, 2005, 12:12:16 AM »

Also, does this only happen once its hot or only when its cold in the morning or something?

mtntoy · « **Reply #7 on:** Mar 06, 2005, 07:12:33 AM »

thanks for all the input guys. The motor is fresh less than 500 miles after my rebuild. When I dropped the fresh motor in, it got a new fuel filter. The motor cranks and fires strong it just seems that once the cold start shuts down it isn't getting fuel anymore. Also if I short the fuel pump B+ and P in the diagnosis box ( I think thats what it is off hand) and let pressure and volume build before I crank it seems to run longer, when I say longer I only mean 5-6 seconds. This used to only be a problems when it was cold and hadn't been running for a while. Now I couldn't tell you if it does it warm cause I can't get it to run long enough to warm up. I can run it as long as I wanted I suppose if I leave the cold start on but I fear that the fuel may not be mixing well enough into all four cylinders and causing one to run lean(I probably don't have to worry about that but I am)? I ran out of time to try a new battery yesterday I will try that today before I pull much more hair out. When the motor was out I had the injectors cleaned before I had this problem I road tested the fuel pressure maybe 3 weeks before this new problem happend because it was running lean, and pressure was well within tollerances; turned out to be an oxygen sensor causing the lean conditions or so I thought. If the battery isn't the problem I think I will pull the pump and check the screen in the tank. thanks guys

BigMike · « **Reply #8 on:** Mar 06, 2005, 09:51:16 AM »

In this case, Im sure its not the battery.

Once its running for the brief moment, what's the rpm at? Is it a normal cold idle, like 1,200 or so? Or is it already shaking and feels like its going to stall out?

If its the later, then it could be:

Idle set screw is turned almost all the way in
Throttle Body butteryfly stop set screw is allowing the butteryfly to close all of the way, jamming it shut. This will move the TPS out of range
Or it could just be the TPS is not adjusted properly and the ECU never sees "Idle"

If its firing up and cold idling normally for a couple of seconds, then I about the only thing I can think of is the air box. Once the air box opens up with the incoming air charge, it probably hits a flat or dead spot on the potentiometer and its signal gets cut out so the ECU thinks there is no air... Have you tried a different air box?

Also, about crossing B+ and P (or whatever it is) to get fuel pressure, you know all you have to do is just put the key on the ON position and push the flapper door of the air box open more then about 1/4". The Air Box is the final switch to activate the fuel pump on 22RE/22RTE's. If you put the key ON, then open and close the trap door with your finger (or a socket extension) then you can hear the fuel pump turning on and off. Its the simplest way to check for fuel pressure.

Also, since its a Turbo engine, I have to ask, are you using a larger aftermarket Turbo or Intercooler with much longer intake plumbing? I recently put a T4 Turbo with LC's reverse header on a 22RTE. Although I did not use an intercooler, because of the humongous Turbo, it would take a bit longer to crank. It has to move more air to get things going. And if its really long, then sure all of the air will be displaced throughout the intake system at the same rate, but when you turn off an engine, fuel, oil, and exhaust vapors, which are hot, slowly make there way back into the intake manifold, and possibly further down the intake tract. So as the ECU see's air is moving, it applies the appropriate fuel mixture, but the computer can not correct for the initial impure air which might have a very low oxygen content.... But I would imagine this would only take it longer to actually start up whereas your engine is starting but won't stay on.

Anyways get back with the above questions I posted above and lets go from there.
BigMike

mtntoy · « **Reply #9 on:** Mar 07, 2005, 06:49:34 AM »

Mike,

I have tried a different airbox but not off a turbo I don't think this would make much of a difference at start up though. I also do have a t3/t4 on there and the plumbing is similar to the stock setup, with no intercooler. As for as a new air box, is it true that the turbo box has a hump in it for boost? My idle is good at about 1200, but I have messed with the idle screw allot since this problem accured. When I got the motor and all its componets the throttle body had a piece of the mounting surface missing next to the tps and there was a vacuum leak so I just siliconed it maybe the tps was messed up too, and it finally took a dump? I suck with electrical, testing senors and what not, and decided to take it to a local shop last Friday and just about ripped the guys head off. I told him the problem and said sounded like the airbox, he couldn't get the truck started at all in 15 minutes and it started to snow he was to lazy to push it in the shop so he told me that he didn't want to work on it and that it would probably go into the thoushands once he started ripping into it if he did, I started it in front of him on the cold start and drove it the 2 tenths of a mile home he was probably a little embarrassed.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #10 on:** Mar 07, 2005, 01:25:11 PM »

air flow sensor dirty?? tps should be replaced, find where the "vacuum leak" came from ,
is your fuel line and fuel pump for a turbo?? if not thats most of your problem

reklund this guy needs you

mtntoy · « **Reply #11 on:** Mar 07, 2005, 06:33:21 PM »

Glen,

thats a good point about the fuel pumping being for turbo, it is not. I was not aware of there being a different pump being spec'd for the turbo. Fuel lines are also not turbo truck. I noticed in the manual in the Fuel injection section there is one small diagram that also has a "fuel pressure tank" that is only spec'd for turbo truck. I couldn't find any more info on the tank in the book. I talked to my father-in-law who is a Service Manager at Toyota dealership and he said its been such a long time since he even saw a turbo truck that he couldn't give me much info and that I should talk to one of his mechanics who wasn't in at the time. As far as the vacuum leak I know where it was coming from the, flat surface the tps seals to on the throttle body was missing a piece (looked like someone hit it with a hammer,I could probably but a 6 mm allen wrench in it. The motor ran like smother than expected but it sounded like it someone stabbed my tire with a knife. I filled the hole with sillicon and the air leak went away. the tps was still mounted solid and didn't move at all, so I figured it would be fine.

BigMike · « **Reply #12 on:** Mar 07, 2005, 08:21:03 PM »

The difference (if any) in NA to Turbo fuel pumps will only be noticed under WOT if it begins to lean out. For cranking/idling/normal driving, a low psi pump can power a race engine just fine if not under a load and the engine is tuned properly.

reklund5 · « **Reply #13 on:** Mar 07, 2005, 08:45:51 PM »

I guess I didn't get it from your posts above...

If you leave the jumper wire on the Fp and B+ terminals in the diag port, will it run fine? I know you said that if you "prime" the system by doing that it runs for a longer period of time, but did you leave the wire in place? The reason I ask is that you may have a faulty airflow meter. You might try leaving that jumper wire installed and see what happens, if you haven't already.

To test for fuel flow, I'd reccomend tapping into the cold start injector line and seeing what kind of volume of fuel you get before you go to the trouble to drop the tank and inspect the pump/sock assy. Also, FWIW, a stock 87-92 Supra Turbo fuel pump fits right into that tank...I've got my stock Supra pump in my truck, as I Upgraded to the TT Supra pump when I rebuilt my Supra engine...

I'm a Toyota Mechanic at a local dealership, so let me know if I can help...

Ryan

mtntoy · « **Reply #14 on:** Mar 08, 2005, 07:03:30 AM »

Ryan,

If I leave the pump on it doesn't make a difference while the truck is running, it will just run a few more seconds if I try to start it with all other conditions normal, other than the prime. I have tried both ways with the wire off and on once the engine is running.

I would assume that running a non turbo afm would work fine to start and run up intill I hit boost right? I have tried a spare and have had no luck with that. I don't know if I am looking to spend $600 bucks on a "turbo" afm that might not fix the problem.

Regarding the fuel flow, I had a hose with an 8mm bango made up to get the fuel off the fuel line at the cold start. Pressure is 40lb with engine off and while running it jumps between 37-39lb with the vacuum line pulled off the regulator it jumps up to 42-43lb. As far as volume the pump filled an empty quart of oil in about 18 seconds.

When I leave the cold start open with a hot wire and then let it run like that for about a minute+ I can usually get it to run if I find the right idle speed(higher than it would be normally)

I think all the fuel volume and pressure statistics are within spec let me know if something needs to be look at in regards to that. I have been really busy and won't be able to look in the tank until the weekend.

As far as the AFM with a little bit of homework I should be able to find out how to test for a dead spot with an ohm meter I would suspect.

Ryan do you know anything about the fuel pressure tank? Is this just to limit fuel injector pulse and is it needed in a turbo application. Seem like if its for pulse it would help in all applications.

Thanks for all the help everybody

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #15 on:** Mar 08, 2005, 06:31:38 PM »

replace that tps then we can work from there, follow the instructions reklund sends you for tuning the tps

mtntoy · « **Reply #16 on:** Mar 08, 2005, 06:59:00 PM »

Right on I have a spare I will try that then if it fixes it I will go out and get a new one, Also whats anyones opinion about the throtlebody, should I change it out to a non turbo and just cap the third vacuum port that way I don't have a hole in my mounting surface? Or would it be better to stay with the turbo TB? Thanks for all the help

kneedownnate · « **Reply #17 on:** Mar 09, 2005, 11:10:07 PM »

Did you consider the cold start injector time switch? I had somebody check out the thread and he said that if you're hotwiring the cold start injector and it's starting easier then it would be a safe bet that it's not being turned on, which is what that switch does. I can't see it being the tps myself cause they can be pretty far outa whack and still start fine, just run funny.

BigMike · « **Reply #18 on:** Mar 10, 2005, 06:37:41 AM »

Hey, could someone else who has an EFI 22R try this for me: Next time you are leaving in the morning and your engine is cold, unplug your cold start injector and try to start it. I'm betting that it will either not make a difference or it will just take 1-2 secs longer to crank.

Thanks
BigMike

kneedownnate · « **Reply #19 on:** Mar 10, 2005, 09:01:25 PM »

I'll do it tomorrow morning and let you know

mtntoy · « **Reply #20 on:** Mar 11, 2005, 07:00:17 AM »

I have an extra switch for the cold start laying around, but am I am thinking along with Mike on this one. The motor fires right up and then stalls. I have a friend that was to lazy to intall a temp gauge the right way and went into the cold start switch location and his truck runs fine it just takes about twice as long to fire when it 40 or colder out. I think the only reason it runs when I open the cold start injector is because the efi system isn't giving it the appropriate fuel; so its more or less using the cold start like an extra injector system would, only with no rpm signal pulse. I am going to try to get some time in on the truck tonight thanks for all the input and help.

BigMike · « **Reply #21 on:** Mar 11, 2005, 09:15:41 AM »

Quote from: kneedownnate on Mar 10, 2005, 09:01:25 PM

I'll do it tomorrow morning and let you know

Cool, let us know

kneedownnate · « **Reply #22 on:** Mar 11, 2005, 08:42:40 PM »

If it only seems to run off the cold start injector then whatya think is the chance the injectors aren't getting a signal? I go back to my prior statement, loose connection or bad wiring. Hope you get it all figured out soon, I know all too well how much it sucks not having your DD running. I now avoid that by having way too many toyotas and a couple of street bikes......gotta love massive debt!

mtntoy · « **Reply #23 on:** Mar 12, 2005, 06:27:36 AM »

Quote from: kneedownnate on Mar 11, 2005, 08:42:40 PM

I know all too well how much it sucks not having your DD running. I now avoid that by having way too many toyotas and a couple of street bikes......gotta love massive debt!

I couldn't agree with you more. My fleet was dwindling after, my Tundra got hit head on and was totaledback in December, My FJ55 has not moved since I bought it(thats a project for a later date) and now the 4runner isn'tmuch of a runner...this was a real problem so I am now a proud owner of an 05 Tacoma. I agree with you on the fact that the injectors are not getting a pulse or if they are it is intermittent/low the weekend is here and the weather is warm I might try to get into my garage and swap out a few parts and then if that doesn't work I will go over the wiring with a fine tooth comb, maybe pull some of the tape off the loom.

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