Author Topic: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread  (Read 211526 times)

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BigMike

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The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« on: January 03, 2006, 08:44:17 AM »
Hey guys, with so much talk about the 3RZ Conversion and its benifits/drawbacks, I thought I would start this thread for a more common place for those seeking more insight to the 3RZ.

Back in October, I wrote a pretty good article about the 3RZ over on Pirates, and I thought it belongs here instead, so here it is in all its glory, The Massive 3RZ Swap Article!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly any conversion that involves one engine type to a another will more than likely require changes to the previous engine management system, engine mounting and placement, and sometimes, even drivetrain changes.

With the 3RZ, either new engine brackets or engine frame mounts will need to be fabricated, exhaust reworked, fuel and clutch lines rerouted, fabricate a hybrid powersteering line (if p/s is desired), mounting various things such as the air flow meter (hot wire), ignitor, fuse box(es), ECU, relays, and vapor canister, and of course do the wiring including new battery cables, powering the engine bay fuse box (main hot source), ignition circuits (hardest part of the wiring job), idiot gauges, fuel wires (gauge/pump), both o2 sensors, A/C clutch (if used), and two ground wires, one from the OCR and the other from the clutch start cancel relay (if 5spd version). If you have an Automatic version 3RZ, then you will need to short the Park safety switch with the "START" position wire (Yellow-gray) to fool the ECU into believing that you are always in Park each time the vehicle is Started.

But I STRONGLY recommend against getting an Automatic version of the 3RZ unless money is an issue. You will have to change the ECU to a 5spd ECU (actually 3RZ ECUs can be had for REALLY REALLY cheap!! Marlin paid $50 for his '96 5spd ECU, Bevin paid $60 for his 2003 5spd ECU, and Dean paid $75 for his 2004 5spd ECU, seriously) as I was unsuccessful at fooling the Lock-out Torque convertor circuit and the three shift solenoids (A, B, and C) circuits from the Automatic ECUs on ALL THREE Automatic-versioned 3RZ conversion's that I've done. One 1996, one 2003, and one 2004. All used 5spds, so in the end, each person had to get a 5spd ECU, as mentioned above.

I have been running my 1995 T100 3RZ in my 1981 Truck since Oct of 2004, I helped Toyhatsu install his 1996 3RZ into his 1991 Daihatsu Rocky this past winter, was pretty quiet during school in the spring, then started complete install on Bevin's 2003 3RZ swap into his carb 1985 shortbed in May '05, then started complete install on Marlin's 1996 3RZ swap into his 1980 longbed in July '05, then started on just the wiring for Dean's 2004 3RZ swap into his Turbo-Diesel 4WD-converted 1986 Extracab in August, and got all three of these 3RZs running within a 6 day span in Sept 2005: I got Bevin's running on Sept. 1st, got Dean's running the next day on the 2nd, and got Marlin's running the following Tuesday, the 6th.

There is quite a lot of info regarding 3RZ swaps here on our Forum...

Here is my 3RZ Project (July 2004 / 21+ pages / also includes Toyhatsu's 3RZ Project):
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=4401.0
An old picture of my 3RZ, back in April 2005. Fully Smoged and Approved! :smokin:

Here's a more recent picture (March 2006):

(update:) ...and once upon a time Supercharged:

(update from 2009 of what is more or less looks like today)


Toyhatsu's 3RZ Swap, some info here:


Here is Marlin's 3RZ Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=13795.0



Here is Bevin's 3RZ Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=13826.0


And here is Dean's 3RZ Project:
hhttp://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=13854.0



Also, there are two threads with other members starting their 3RZ Swaps that are worth reading,
Morpheine's 3RZ Swap:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=15706.0
BUDDERS's 3RZ Swap:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=14287.0
Also Volcom is about to start his swap instead of Supercharging his 22R:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=14334.0

If you do a search here, you can find a bit more on 3RZs than what I've linked above.

Thus far, I only have experience with the 1st (distributor) and 3rd/final (quad coil DIS) generations of the 3RZ, but as mentioned in my 6th paragraph, sometime this winter/spring, my co-worker Angelo will be putting a 1997 3RZ into his third gen (90s style) shortbed, and I will learn how to wire the 2nd generation 3RZ which is a twin coil DIS system.

Comparing the 1st to the 3rd gens, the 3rd gen (2000(?)-2004) is far easier to do the wiring because the interior fuse box can be eliminated much easier than with the 1st gen wiring (1995-1996). Also, surprisingly enough, there are fewer circuits to hook up with the newer system, however the purge canister now has 4 vacuum lines, two fuel tank lines, and two vacuum solenoids (4 wires there) as compared to the early system, which only had 1 fuel tank line and 1 vacuum line and 1 solenoid to hook up.

So if you are like us (in CA) and have to worry about smog, it is quicker to get the early model 3RZs converted and referee approved than with the later model 3RZs.

EDIT April 2008: And speaking about Smog, here is a smog report from Marlin's truck. Just look how clean these big block 4cyls are:


As for your Automatic issue, if you want to retain the auto, then just do so. Although this has never been done to my knowledge, according to Marlin, Tacoma's use the same A340 trans that's in your truck right now. So all you would need is the 4cyl 2RZ/3RZ Automatic Transmission Bellhousing, and it will bolt directly to your 22R-E Automatic Transmission, and then that will go right behind a 3RZ Engine. Done.

Update Feb 2013: Here are some Dyno sheets...

This is from Bevin's 2003 four-coil 3RZ. Power at the ground through 37" Interco TrXus MT tires:


And this is a dyno comparison of a 22R-E vs a single coil 3RZ, from the same truck, power to the ground, dyno'd before and after the 3RZ swap. To it's defense, the 22R-E in this example was a high mileage unit:


As you can see, the 3RZ develops about 40 more wheel horsepower usable for about 1,000 RPMs longer than the 22R-E as well as 50 lbs-ft torque at nearly 1,000 RPM sooner. So better bottom end and top end power.

If you do go with a 3RZ-FE then check out this sa-weeet 2.7 liter EFI badge Marlin Crawler offers:
Click here for details: http://www.marlincrawler.com/accessories/stickers-logos/27-efi
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 07:24:27 PM by BigMike »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2006, 08:50:59 AM »
And here are some videos for your multimedia pleasure:

UPDATE Jan 2013: Here come some updated videos that I've never added to this post, enjoy!

My stock 3RZ-FE vs. CJ's Turbocharged 22R-TE running a 22R-E head for higher compression, April, 2008
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - BigMike (3RZ-FE) vs. CJ (22R-TE Turbo)

                                                                                         
 

My stock 3RZ-FE loaded down with camping gear vs. stock 22R-E powered lightweight Formula Toy Competition Buggy
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - Full Body 3RZ-FE vs 22R-E F-Toy

                                                                                         
 

Here are the only videos I have from when my 3RZ-FE was Supercharged:
Both videos are 0-85 MPH runs on the stock TRD S/C pulley. The gauge at left is reading pressure from my water/alcohol injection system.
See reply #199 here for more info on what's going on in these two videos.

For reference, 37"x12.50" R15 Goodyear MTRs tires, Heavy Duty Marlin Crawler W56-A transmission, Triple Marlin Crawler Transfer Case system (all in high-range of course) and 5.29:1 R&P.

Gauge View
<a href="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/rakudasama/1981/0-85_MPH_Gauges_zps78a634ec.mp4" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/rakudasama/1981/0-85_MPH_Gauges_zps78a634ec.mp4</a>
Windshield View
<a href="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/rakudasama/1981/0-85_MPH_Windshield_zpsba26ff8a.mp4" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/rakudasama/1981/0-85_MPH_Windshield_zpsba26ff8a.mp4</a>

Wheeling vids...

From June 2009, Rubicon Trail
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - John drives BigMike's Truck at 511:1 Crawl Ratio

                                                                                         
 

From May 20, 2013, Blue Canyon (east of Fresno, CA)
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - Head 4 The Hills Poker Run - Climbing up "Two Step" at...

                                                                                         
 

From May, 2012
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - BigMike's 511:1 Marlin Crawler Parking Stall Burn Out

                                                                                         
 

From June 2009, Rubicon Trail (same as first vid above but with me driving)
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - BigMike records his own Walking The Crawler

                                                                                         
 

From April, 2008 out at the Hammers
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - BigMike climbing up Jackhammer Canyon

                                                                                         
 


Bevin's 3RZ-FE out wheel'n
From September, 2006, Jose Basin, CA
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - Jose Basin 3 of 3

                                                                                         
 

From August, 2006, Red Lake Trail near Shaver Lake, CA
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - blane525 on Red Mtn Trail

                                                                                         
 

From August, 2006, Red Lake Trail near Shaver Lake, CA
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - blane525 on Red Mtn Trail

                                                                                         
 

Marlin's 3RZ-FE out wheel'n
From August, 2007, near Big Bear, CA
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - The Original "Walking the Crawler"

                                                                                         
 

From June, 2009, Rubicon Trail
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - Walking the Crawler up the famous Cadillac Rock, Rubic...

                                                                                         
 

From February, 2009, Dusy/Ershim Trail
 
                                                                                 

YouTube - Marlin Crawler - Walking The Crawler down the Dusy-Ers...

                                                                                         
 


Original videos from this reply posted Jan 3, 2006:

My 3RZ; The videos I've recorded thus far:


Playing on Hollywood Hill, 1st gear 510:1



Top side of Hollywood Hill



V-Rock, 2nd gear 276:1



Playing in the Snow



Marlin's 2nd Cranking of his 3RZ Swap - Cool Video of the Man Himself!


Strating Up the 3RZ Powered Crawler Truck! (check out those flames!)



Starting up Bevin's 3RZ:


This was the first crank with the Ignition fully wired. Excitement after 3 months of non-stop work




Bevin's 3RZ Is Alive!



Revving up Dean's 3RZ:


Revving Dean's 3RZ (no exhaust system yet) 3:30am that morning.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 12:31:24 PM by BigMike »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2006, 08:52:03 AM »
The last thing I was going to talk about, was the beauty of OBD-II..

Since the 3RZ uses the OBD-II system, trouble shooting has never been easier!








My First and only Trouble Code so far:






And just like that, the ECU detected my purge canister solenoid, which, at that time, I had not wired in. But even knowing that, when the check light came on, sure I was nervous about it. It came on the 2nd day I drove the truck. I had other loose ends, plus I had no idea about the history of the engine, so just knowing exactly what the problem was really made it easy. OBD-II is really, really, really cool. And resetting the check engine lamp is only a mouse click away :D

These screen shots are from the program Diagnose, http://www.obddiagnostics.com Can't got wrong for a full scanner for just $80!

BigMike [OP]

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2006, 09:00:07 AM »
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that was the article I wrote, with slight modifications to fit here.

I would love to get some info regarding TacoRunner's 3RZ swap into his 1st gen 4Runner, including complete Tacoma Interior Conversion, so TacoRunner, whenever you see this, PM me some pictures of your engine and interior so I can add them to the collection :thumbs:

Also, I have plans on writing a 3RZ Swappers Guide for the Toyota Owners Magazine soon, as I have been invited to do so, so I will be starting on that this month..

As for a 3RZ Conversion Kit, Marlin Crawler is currently working on getting together the first 3RZ Conversion Kit for the market, so I will let you guys know more info on this as it comes around. I know we already have made jigs to produce Direct Weld-on Engine mounts, but the kit is not ready yet..

That's about it for now,
BigMike

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2006, 09:11:44 AM »
Here is some info from the "Questions about 3RZ swap??" Thread, as linked above:

I have raced a Turbo 22R-TE, a 3.0 V6, and a 3.4 V6 up the same steep grade on HWY168 up to Shaver Lake, and I can pull all over the Turbo and the 3.0, and slowly distance myself from the 3.4. Seriously. When you think about it, the 3.4 only has 25% more horsepower than the 2.7, and that's apparently not enough to cover the extra weight of the newer trucks (as my truck only weighs about 3300 lbs).

As for the 3RZ swap, I could go on for days talking about this topic.

But I want to scare you first. It will cost you roughly $1500 to complete the swap, if not more. Figure about $800 - $1200 for an engine complete with all wiring harnesses and ecu, and an extra $300 - $500 or so for the misc things you will need during the conversion.

As for wiring, the 22R-E would be much easier since you won't have to do any wiring. Your chassis and body are already setup for the 22R-E harness, so you can just basically keep the looming intact and just install it into your truck (as I see you have a 2nd gen truck). The hardest thing would be working on the interior and ignition. You would have to remove your dash and place the new looming into place. I am talking about having a complete 100% harness with all sensors and everything, including the ignition..

As for the 3RZ, I have complete notes for the 1st gen and 3rd generations of the 3RZ (1995-1997 & 2001(?)-2004), I just need to get them up online for everyone to enjoy..

But even with the wiring notes, it will be a lot of wiring and soldering and heat shrinking to do the job correctly. I will not pretend to tell people that this is a cake job. Even for me, sure it's cake because I've done it a couple of times, but its still gonna take me a couple of days to get it finished. :suprised:

But let me tell you, the rewards from the 3RZ are OUT STANDING. Sometimes when I've raced a moderately modified 22R-E setup, I feel like "If I loose this race, it's going to be REALLY embarrassing considering all of the work that Ive done" but then I just realize, how could someone build a NA 22R-E engine that could out perform a 22R-TE engine? NO WAY! At least nothing that would be a daily driver, it would be some special machine for sure, and then I remember, well geeze! my 3RZ IS BONE STOCK!!!!! What if I put the same amount of work into my engine! Holy Crap- So It is soooo amazing to have a completely stock engine, thats completely stock Toyota reliable, makes over 20 mpg on the highway, and has more power than both the Turbo 22R and the 3.0 V6, and it is all so Light weight, works with a lightweight drivetrain, has NO clutter under the hood, and is smog legal (here in Cali).

If I had to do this again, I would never even think about anything else than the 3RZ. Not in a million years.

In fact, this last weekend we just took Bevin's truck out for a test drive for the first time, and this is the 2nd fastest 3RZ truck Ive driven. His truck is really fast!! And he is so happy with the 3RZ that he has already bought a 1963 Toyota Stout, and we are looking for yet another 3RZ to swap into the Stout and convert it to a 4WD. Pretty cool stuff man :beerchug:
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 10:34:26 AM by BigMike »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2006, 09:20:41 AM »
From the "Drivetrain Swap Question" Thread:

The 2.7l 3RZ Engine swap is much much much easier than many fear.

In fact, your friend can use his existing stock W56 and transfercase, as it is a direct bolt on to the 3RZ's W59 bellhousing.

As for wiring, about 75% of the wires are self contained in the Engine > ECU harness, so all that is left to wire in would be the idiot gauges, ignition, alternator, starter, battery, and possibly rewire your headlights and blinkers.

As for the exhaust, I just routed mine down and below my bellhousing and placed my OBD-II cat right in the stock location as my factory cat, so everything up to the cat is compatible so he doesn't even have to change his exhaust system if he doesnt want to.

The factory 2-core radiator should be sufficient, but I would recommend using a 3-core rad. from either a 86-87' Turbo 22R-TE p/u or from a 3.0 3VZ 88-95 p/u.

If you have never done an engine swap that requires wiring before, then expect to take about a month to get it finished.

..................


New engine mounts must be created. I cut my stock mounts off my frame and made new ones, and with a 1985 Swap that I am working on, we just modified the Tacoma engine mounts to fit right in the stock frame mounts, so no cutting on the frame was required.

Crossmember: For all 84+ rigs, stock crossmember works in the stock location. For 79-83 trucks, the crossmember will need to be moved reward as the newer style transmissions (g- or W-series) are a bit longer (~4") than the old school trans (L-series).
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 10:34:37 AM by BigMike »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2006, 09:22:43 AM »
Here are some courious questions about Wiring, found on "Bevin's 3RZ Conversion" thread:

1st question: Why are you saving the interior wiring harness out of the donor vehicle? All I can think of that I need is the OBD-II Data Link Connecter.
Well, with the first swap I did (first gen. 3RZ), half of the engine related relays are located in the interior fuse box. So I kept that fuse box and also kept the required wires for those circuits.

But then, when I was doing the 3rd gen 3RZ conversions, on both Bevin's and Dean's, Toyota was smart to relocate those engine related circuits up into the Engine bay fuse box, and I discovered that the interior fuse box can be eliminated altogether. But at the time with Bevin's, I instructed him to order the interior crowl harness because I didn't know anything about the 3rd gen harnesses. It turned out that there are only about 20 wires that are needed to combine the right side of the interior with the left side, including fuel pump, OCR, grounds, fuel sender, low fuel level lamp, starter, ignition, and power.

So when we did Dean's, I just used some of my left over Toyota wires and was able to use the exact factory wire color and striping wires to finalize the interior wiring without needing the factory Tacoma crowl harness.

So you are right, it is not needed.
On Marlin's and my conversion, we are using 95-(early)97 style 3RZs (distributor), so if that is the same version as your's, with the distributor, then there are just a few circuits needed *I believe* from the whole interior drivers-side fuse box, but I have not done this to mine yet. I have retained the clutch-start cancel relay and I am routing my electric locker and cb radio through the T100 fused circuits that were already there on the interior fuse box out of convenience. Such as the 15A "Park Lamp" fused circuit and the 20A? "Cigarette" Fused Circuit. There are a couple more circuits there that I can use, like once I put my car deck in, but of course I can just go down to Autozone and get a Fuse Block and make my own circuits.........

which brings me to your 2nd question:
Quote
2nd question: You've used the under-hood fuse block for all three conversions you've done, what is the importance?
Well, for me, I like the Factory look of the fuse box because I am not the best at adding relayed circuits to the side of an inner fender wall.
From the 1st gen 3RZ Engine bay fuse box, amongst the circuits that need to be fused, there are also many relays such as the EFI relay, Injector relay, and Starter relay. Also, the T100 fuse box we have contain the large 80A and 50A main fuses for the Alternator and main hot line from the Battery-> Starter-> Fuse box, which powers the whole truck.
And from the 3rd gen 3RZ Engine bay fuse box, it is the same but this time there is no Starter Relay.

There are about 4 or 5 fused circuits that are needed from there....... So, I could have just gone to a parts store and bought some relays and some fuse blocks, and done it all that way, but I just figured it was much easier to retain the factory Engine bay fuse box.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 10:34:53 AM by BigMike »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2006, 09:27:25 AM »
Some Engine Comparison Data:
Engine....Valves..Displacement..Horsepower....Torque........Bore......Stroke....Compression
18R-GE21968cc135@5800127@440088.5mm808.3:1
20R2218990@4800122@240088.4898.4:1
22R2236696@4800129@280092899.0:1
22R-E22366112@4600142@340092899.0:1
22R-TE22366135@4800173@280092897.5:1 - Boost: 6 psi

2RZ-FE42.4l142@5000160@40009.5:1
3RZ-FE42693150@4800177@400095959.5:1

3VZ-E32958150@4800180@340087.5829:1
5VZ-FE43378190@4800220@360093.5829.6:1

5M-GE22759161@5600169@440083859.2:1
7M-GE42954199@6000188@360083919.2:1
7M-GTE42954232@5600254@320083918.4:1 - Boost: 5 psi

F23878135@3800217@2000891027.5:1
2F24230140@3600218@1800941027.8:1

4.0 V643956245@5,200282@3,80010.0:1
4.7 V844664245@5,400315@3,4009.6:1 2004
4.7 V844664282@5,400325@3,4009.6:1 2005+


And from the "4 banger vs six" thread, slightly updated:
Quote
I have 2 v6s and I love them. They are under powered but they do have more power than the 4's.
Only the 22R-Es. The 3.0 does not outperform the 2.7 3RZ-FE 4cyl:

3RZ-FE (2.7 4cyl) - 150@4800 / 177@4000
3VZ-E  (3.0 6cyl)- 150@4800 / 180@3400

Take two identicle vehicles and run a 2.7 vs a 3.0 and the 3.0 will get spanked, period. The 2.7 is lighter and much more rev-happy. I do not believe that the 3.0 V6 can hang with a 2.7 I4. That is my opinion.

Some cool numbers that show why the 3RZ is the real deal:
22R: 40 HP per liter
22R-E: 47 HP per liter
3VZ-E (3.0): 50 HP per liter
5VZ-E (3.4): 54 HP per liter
22R-TE: 56 HP per liter * TURBO *
3RZ-FE (2.7): 56 HP per liter * NO TURBO *

Wow, that really puts things into perspective :gap: Even out performs the 3.4l V6 in power/size.

Quote
have any of you guys heard anything about the LC engineering stroked 2.4's??? Looks like they stroked em to 2.6. Bu the short block price is over 3,000! :smack:

The only way to get the 22R-E up is with an entirely new EFI/ECU system which would give the user flexability to increase the engine's fuel economy and performance, but at the loss of being smog illeagle (if that applies to you).

Instead of taking an old story into a new book cover, just get a whole new book. The 3RZ is light years ahead of the 22R-E. The 22R-E is based on an engine from 1981. That gives the 3RZ a 14-year technology head start, and then they made a kick ass engine.


Oil Pan Conversion Information (Big Thanks to 4RnrRick for these!!):
If your 3RZ came out of a Tacoma, then you will need the rear-sump oil pan equipment from a 1995-1997 2WD T100 to clear your front Live Axle. Here are the part numbers from the dealers:

12101-75060 Oil Pan, (T100 2wd 2.7L, 6 qts)
15104-75020 Pickup Tube & Strainer, (T100 2wd 2.7L)
11494-75010 Oil Hole Plate, (T100 2wd 2.7L)
15147-75020 Oil Strainer Gasket, (T100 2wd 2.7L)
15301-75020 Oil Gage (Dipstick), (T100 2wd 2.7L)
11409-75020 Oil Gage Guide (Dipstick), (T100 2wd 2.7L)
91651-60614 Bolts (Oil Hole plate), (4) Req'd
00295-00103 FIPG (Form in Place Gasket material)
NOTE: The original numbers were incorrect and have been updated by 4RnrRick. Thanks Rick! :beerchug:
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 11:47:13 PM by BigMike »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2006, 09:54:38 AM »
Here is my comparison of the 3RZ-FE vs. the Turbo 22R-TE in the "MY 85 TURBO TRUCK" Thread:

hey bigmike, you raced a turbo truck yet :gap:

Yes sirre! I talked about it in my project thread like on page 31 or somewhere..

I've raced a freshly built stock 22R-TE using stock boost (6 psi) in a '83 long bed frame and a Marlin-built TEC Hybrid Turbo 22R-TE in a '86 Turbo shortbed truck with a NA cylinder head with about 20k miles and only 5 psi boost (controller equipped).

The stock rig I raced belongs to TURBO and at the time he had on bald 31s, stock gearing, and no bed. And with my 35s and 5.29s, we were dead even. I consistently out launched him by a good truck length, but then he would stay with me all the way up to 70 mph three times in a row. I couldn't pull on him and he couldn't pull on me.

And as for my friend Brandon who has the 86 shortbed, he's running 33s with stock 4.11 gearing. My truck was the same as above, 35s and 5.29s. I could out launch him by about 1/2 truck length, but by 3rd gear he would catch me and thats all we did. Im sure he would take me up to 70, he's definitely got more power than me and even he's only running 5 psi boost. But if we were just street racing, he would have to work really hard to catch me between the lights because I can out launch him easily.

So that's two turbo trucks.
The stock one on 31s was equal to my truck on 35s. Survey says: I Kicked his butt! If he had 35s and a bed on his rig, he would have no chance.
My friends 86 with the TEC turbo is a sweet ride. Im not sure if he would be any faster with 35s because right now on the 33s with stock gearing, his gears are really ridiculously long. Im already into 4th when he's just getting into 3rd-- which is perfect for a broad torque banded engine like a Turbo. So I think if he had 35s, and maybe 4.88s, he would be quick, but not as quick as he is now. So I should put on some 33s and race him and then we'll   see what's what
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 10:36:04 AM by BigMike »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2006, 10:12:15 AM »
5M-GE vs. 3RZ-FE From the "5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?" Thread:

Early 5M-GE Power Output (1983-84): 143 HP @ 5200 rpm // 154 TQ @ 4400 rpm
Late 5M-GE Power Output (1984-86): 161 HP @ 5600 rpm // 169 TQ @ 4400 rpm

Early 3RZ-FE Power Output (1995-98): 150 HP @ 4800 rpm // 177 TQ @ 4000 rpm
Late model 3RZs Power is the same, but the torque band is a bit wider / longer

Weight Difference: 3RZ has gotta be a good 80+ lbs lighter if not more

Now I am no genius, but it is VERY easy to see that the 3RZ not only develops more torque then any version 2.8l 5M I6 engine, but both the HP and TQ peak power bands are both lower, so you get more power sooner. The 5M seems to be more of a rev-happy engine compared to the 3RZ, and if you want some Crawling power (low idle power), then I wouldn't go that route...

Cylinder Size Comparison: 5M = 459.8cc  vs.  3RZ = 673.3cc
Compression Comparison: 5M = 8.8:1      vs.  3RZ = 9.5:1

If you have more compression and more displacement, you are gonna develop more torque, period. I understand that a 6cyl is powering every 60 degrees of crank rotation whereas a 4cyl is only every 90 degrees, but clearly the 5M just doesn't have what it takes to compete with the 3RZ.

I would assume that the 5M might be able to get slightly better gas mileage, since it is more of a light-duty 6cyl engine, where as the 3RZ is a Big-Block Big-Bore 4cylinder Engine. I am averaging about 17-19 mpg with the 3RZ. I bet the 5M could average 20? I don't know, but it seems that way from the figures...

I do not believe that the 5M is easier to swap in. Its not only larger, wider, and longer, but its got more wiring, more vacuum lines, maybe even a larger ecu (because its older). With the OBD-II knowledge of the 3RZ, to me it is a no brainer to go with the 3RZ. More power, lighter, newer, 100 times more easy to diagnose, modern, more compact, less weight.. The only draw back would be that the 3RZ is possibly taller, but I do not know how the 5M intake manifold is designed, so they actually might be about the same height.

7M-GE vs. 3RZ-FE From the "4RnrRick is getting a 7M-GE / 7MGE Motor swap" Thread:

Quote
I just don't think the 3RZFE (34% more HP, 25% more Torque) is worth the trouble..........So that basically leaves me with the 7M-GE. This motor would be an increase of 77% more HP and 32% more Torque.

There is NO way that I am going to sit here and tell you that the 3RZ is better than the 7M. For sure the 7M has and will make more HP than the 3RZ, despite only developing just 11 more ft-lbs of torque, it is a more powerful engine. I would imagine that the 7M is more of a "rev-happy" power engine and the 3RZ is more of a "grunt" power engine.

But some other things to consider.......

7M benefits:
11 more ft-lbs torque.
Cheap.
Easy to find / Pull it yourself at wrecking yards.

3RZ benefits:
Much much improved OBD-II system.
Far easier to trouble shoot using a scanner.
Technology is leaps and bounds ahead of the 1986-1990 7M engines.
Lighter.
Cheaper tune-ups.
Maybe more fuel efficient? I don't know what the 7M will do in your truck but my 2.7 can pull 20-21 mpg on the freeway if I keep it under 75mph.
It's cool when a 4-cyl is faster than a 6-cylinder.

I'm sure most of that doesn't concern anyone, but I am really into the newer ECM system of the 3RZs. It's alot smarter than the older EFI systems, yes its more complicated, but also there is wwaayy less clutter and stuff on the engine too, so I think that goes both ways. The sensors are smaller and more compact and should last longer/less trouble prone. The air sensor on the newer engines would be my only complaint as the older air boxes and MAP sensors were just very simple and were great to use on dusty trails.

On a side note, the newer '05+ 2.7s (2TR-FE, NOT 3RZ-FE!!!) are rated at 164 HP (5200rpm) and 183 TQ (3800rpm) which is 46% more HP and 29% more TQ, up 12%/4% respectively from the previous 2.7s, but getting ahold of a '05 engine would be a pretty penny. By this time next year they will be all over the place.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 06:31:56 PM by BigMike »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2006, 10:16:47 PM »
As for wiring, the 22R-E would be much easier since you won't have to do any wiring. Your chassis and body are already setup for the 22R-E harness, so you can just basically keep the looming intact and just install it into your truck (as I see you have a 2nd gen truck). The hardest thing would be working on the interior and ignition. You would have to remove your dash and place the new looming into place. I am talking about having a complete 100% harness with all sensors and everything, including the ignition..

Hi Big Mike! Way to take the iniative and get this swap done before many others, several times even. I've been following the progress on these swaps for a while as I purchased a 97 tacoma to do the swap back in 03 when my 22re spun a rod bearing, and am just now getting around to installing it in the 4runner.

As I understand what you stated above, you run the tacoma harness into the cab and replace the factory 22re harness with that? I have a complete 97 tacoma (the whole truck) that I am using for this swap into an 85 efi 4runner. It is the second gen 3rz engine with the twin coil packs. Any expertise you could provide would be a big help.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 10:53:31 PM by projectcrawler »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2006, 12:50:21 PM »
I like what I'm hearing here, but a 5VZ-FE with a TURD blower would be pretty innarestin. Anybody know of somebody whose done that in a 2nd gen truck or 1st ge 4runner?

Also what about mating a 3RZ with a R151F tranny?-- Matt
1984 xtra cab SR5, 22RE, R151F
1989 4runner SR5, V6, auto
1993 xtra cab dlx, V6, 5sp

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2006, 11:08:34 PM »
    Big Mike or anyone else who knows.  I read in one of the posts that the tailhousing on a w56 and a w59 are interchangeable.  I have a low mileage  w59 that came with my 3rz, I know were I can get a w56 with a blown reverse gear and maybe other problems for free or really cheap, can I just swap the tailhousing or is there some other complication?  Should I just use the w59 and buy the adapter to bolt up to my gear drive t-case?
1983 short bed 5.29 and detroits, 22re, SKY's hi-steer, HID lights, 35'' MTRs, fuel cell, 9500ti, 4'' Marlin Springs, 30 spline longs, 3rz swap soon!

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2006, 10:27:01 AM »
Hopefully someone can help me out with this question. I am in the process of purchasing a 3rz engine and I would like to know opinions or suggestions as to what all I should purchase in order to fit it into my 22r 85 4x4 pup.
This is what I have priced so far------- 03 tacoma, 4x2,FI,2.7L,NEE D308    for $1500.00 including wire harness and computer.

Does it matter if the engine is from an Auto or standard?
Does it matter if the computer is from an auto or standard?
Do I only need the engine harness or all of the trucks electrical harness?
What about the gas tank and sending unit?
Any info would really be appreciated.    del

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2006, 10:35:16 AM »
Hey OliveToy. I've not heard about the tailhousing being interchangable, but I do know that you can change the bell housings. So if you have a 3RZ and want to use a right hand drive front axle you can keep the 3RZ bell housing and change the tranny to a W56.
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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2006, 06:33:16 PM »
Thanks TacoRunner.  Since I already have a good w59 and I found a marlin adapter to go to a gear drive t-case locally for cheap, I am going to go that route.  As soon as I can pony up the money for a 23 spline ultimate crawler setup.  :bling:
1983 short bed 5.29 and detroits, 22re, SKY's hi-steer, HID lights, 35'' MTRs, fuel cell, 9500ti, 4'' Marlin Springs, 30 spline longs, 3rz swap soon!

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2006, 04:40:51 PM »
Any of you guys happen to have the wiring diagrams from your swaps? I just asked my local dealer for the price of a tacoma fsm, $155.  The wiring dosn't look to bad but I want something.
1983 short bed 5.29 and detroits, 22re, SKY's hi-steer, HID lights, 35'' MTRs, fuel cell, 9500ti, 4'' Marlin Springs, 30 spline longs, 3rz swap soon!

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2006, 03:43:48 AM »
Trying to make this thread related, but I just got my 3RZ mounted into my 87 4Runner and hooking everything up is extremly easy, almost like it was made for it. Fuel lines, exhaust and wiring will probably be the hardest parts.

BigMike, a big humbs up for all the great information.
In Progress: 3RZ-FE Swap Underway.

Currently: 87' 4Runner - SAS - 5.29's - welded rear - Dual 2.28 cases - Optima bluetop - round headlight conversion - FZJ80 grill - rattlecan paint job - trimmed fenders - Ranger hybrid springs front - Tacoma hybrid springs rear - schedule 160 drivelines 8" slip front - Marlin's crossmember - disk brake conversion

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2006, 07:53:43 AM »
hey ripper congrats on the new engine!
what did your parts list consist of when you purchased the 3rz?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.    del

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2006, 01:44:29 PM »
Well I got it out of a "pull it yourself" junkyard so I got almost everything I needed in one trip. The truck was a 97 4runner 2wd that was in a rollover so pretty much everything was intact except the EVAP canister. I started by removing the interior wiring harness and PCM making sure to keep all wiring together. Next was the engine components, wiring first, than intake, fan, remove A/C (I kept the compressor because Front Range Off Road makes a kit to convert it to on-board air) remove power steering lines FROM THE RACK. You'll need to save every possible vacuum, or other hose you can think of. Save the radiator hoses and the hoses that run to the heater core. The 22R(E) ones are too short to fit. Remove the bellhousing bolts, clutch slave (make sure you keep the clutch line) and pull the engine.

I'm using the stock 22RE radiator until I can afford the V6 style or 22RET style, it should work fine though with the stock fan on there.

That's basically all you need with the exception of coverting to a rear sump oil pan and I will have those part numbers posted soon.

Hope this helps.
In Progress: 3RZ-FE Swap Underway.

Currently: 87' 4Runner - SAS - 5.29's - welded rear - Dual 2.28 cases - Optima bluetop - round headlight conversion - FZJ80 grill - rattlecan paint job - trimmed fenders - Ranger hybrid springs front - Tacoma hybrid springs rear - schedule 160 drivelines 8" slip front - Marlin's crossmember - disk brake conversion

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2006, 04:38:07 PM »
Any of you guys happen to have the wiring diagrams from your swaps? I just asked my local dealer for the price of a tacoma fsm, $155.  The wiring dosn't look to bad but I want something.

I used my local library, they have alldata which is a web interface that has all the scanned fsms. There is also this for the 3rd gen engines, be aware the wiring is different from the 2nd gen 97 fsm I am using for my swap. www deserted1 com/FSM/

Good Luck.

Edit by BigMike: the above link no longer works so I've disabled it.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 08:41:48 AM by BigMike »

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2006, 04:54:17 PM »
Thanks for the link!  I ran to my library the other day and looked throught the FSM but they didnt have any for foreign trucks.  Im going to look at my harness and see how different the 3 gen wiring is, maybe I can figure it out from that.  Thank you!!! :bowdown:
1983 short bed 5.29 and detroits, 22re, SKY's hi-steer, HID lights, 35'' MTRs, fuel cell, 9500ti, 4'' Marlin Springs, 30 spline longs, 3rz swap soon!

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2006, 01:19:42 AM »
I got both factory wiring manuals for my 87 and the 97 donor motor for $40 A piece from booksforcars.com. Got them within a week too. I recomend them.
In Progress: 3RZ-FE Swap Underway.

Currently: 87' 4Runner - SAS - 5.29's - welded rear - Dual 2.28 cases - Optima bluetop - round headlight conversion - FZJ80 grill - rattlecan paint job - trimmed fenders - Ranger hybrid springs front - Tacoma hybrid springs rear - schedule 160 drivelines 8" slip front - Marlin's crossmember - disk brake conversion

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2006, 09:04:34 PM »
I compared the 2003 wiring to my 1998? (2 coil DIS) system and the wiring colors are different but the system appears to be the same.  Do you think they change any wiring colors between years or just between motor generations?
1983 short bed 5.29 and detroits, 22re, SKY's hi-steer, HID lights, 35'' MTRs, fuel cell, 9500ti, 4'' Marlin Springs, 30 spline longs, 3rz swap soon!

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2006, 09:40:09 AM »
Can I swap a 3.0 out for a 2.7? My 3.0 is leaking oil like crazy and I have 37's on my truck and I don't think the engine likes them very much.
89' 4Runner || Everythings Gone!! for now.
97' 4Runner, 2.7, Auto - Daily Driver

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2006, 02:35:47 PM »
You wouldn't be able to use your R series transmission but other than that the swap should be the same.
In Progress: 3RZ-FE Swap Underway.

Currently: 87' 4Runner - SAS - 5.29's - welded rear - Dual 2.28 cases - Optima bluetop - round headlight conversion - FZJ80 grill - rattlecan paint job - trimmed fenders - Ranger hybrid springs front - Tacoma hybrid springs rear - schedule 160 drivelines 8" slip front - Marlin's crossmember - disk brake conversion

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2006, 05:56:10 AM »
thats good, I have a tranny out of an 85 that I want to swap in because it uses the gear driven t-case, what about the wiring?
89' 4Runner || Everythings Gone!! for now.
97' 4Runner, 2.7, Auto - Daily Driver

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2006, 01:40:49 AM »
The M/T out of your 85 needs to be out of an EFi vehicle too. That would be the W series. If it's carbed, that's the G series, and I'm almost positive it's a different bellhousing to M/T mounting pattern.

As for wiring, you'll still need the complete wiring harness(es) out of your donor car, then just splicing in. (Ignition, charging, etc.)
In Progress: 3RZ-FE Swap Underway.

Currently: 87' 4Runner - SAS - 5.29's - welded rear - Dual 2.28 cases - Optima bluetop - round headlight conversion - FZJ80 grill - rattlecan paint job - trimmed fenders - Ranger hybrid springs front - Tacoma hybrid springs rear - schedule 160 drivelines 8" slip front - Marlin's crossmember - disk brake conversion

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2006, 04:38:02 AM »
Ok, and it is an 85 EFI... so its probobly a w56? Couldn't I just use the bellhousing from the W59 and put it on my W56? I really want to go duals or 4.7's, so I want to have a gear driven T-case because 5.29's and 2.57's (I think at the the chain t-case) just aren't cutting it for me.
89' 4Runner || Everythings Gone!! for now.
97' 4Runner, 2.7, Auto - Daily Driver

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Re: The Official 3RZ Knowledge and Database Thread
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2006, 08:35:56 AM »
That's what I did.W59 bolts right up.
In Progress: 3RZ-FE Swap Underway.

Currently: 87' 4Runner - SAS - 5.29's - welded rear - Dual 2.28 cases - Optima bluetop - round headlight conversion - FZJ80 grill - rattlecan paint job - trimmed fenders - Ranger hybrid springs front - Tacoma hybrid springs rear - schedule 160 drivelines 8" slip front - Marlin's crossmember - disk brake conversion

 
 
 
 
 

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