Topic: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?

[shad]

Trying to make up my mind for this winter project. I have access to get either of these engines a 5mge or a 2.7l  taco motor.
The 5mge I would likely have to rebuild which cost wise would set me back as much as a used under 100k 2.7l taco motor.
Which engine do you think is gonna be more reliable and more bang for the buck?

I know what is entailed on doing the 5mge but I don't want a huge amount of downtime either.
Which swap is gonna be less fuss?
It kinda looks like you have to do alot to the 3rz-fe to fit it in there and the 5mge pretty much bolts right in.

[BUDDERS]

I would stay away from the heavier 5mge and go with something more modern.  If you have access to the 3rz with a engine harness and manual trans ecu, I would go with that setup.  You can use your stock radiator, 3rz belhousing and clutch, and a W 56 trans.  You have to trade out the oil pain, pick up tube and dipstick from a 3rz equipped T100, cut the motor mounts off of the frame and modify them to be welded back on.  Oh, and with this oil pan configuration, it's a great idea to have some lift on the front end or the axle moved forward to clear the pan.  Remember, there always other obsticles to overcome when building this that aren't covered on this forum, so don't think you can do it fast - especially your first one.

[shad [OP]]

Well i might have to go with the 5mge if i can get it cheap enough.

I just found the whole deal with everything here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TOYOTA-SUPRA-CELICA-7MGE-5MGE-22RE-ENGINE-SWAP_W0QQitemZ8026591650QQcategoryZ33615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[jr9162]

Beware, he's selling a 7M-GE with a R154 (7M-GTE) bellhousing.

[BigMike]

5M vs. 3RZ

Early 5M-GE Power Output (1983-84): 143 HP @ 5200 rpm // 154 TQ @ 4400 rpm
Late 5M-GE Power Output (1984-86): 161 HP @ 5600 rpm // 169 TQ @ 4400 rpm

Early 3RZ-FE Power Output (1995-98): 150 HP @ 4800 rpm // 177 TQ @ 4000 rpm
Late model 3RZs Power is the same, but the torque band is a bit wider / longer

Weight Difference: 3RZ has gotta be a good 80+ lbs lighter if not more

Now I am no genius, but it is VERY easy to see that the 3RZ not only develops more torque then any version 2.8l 5M I6 engine, but both the HP and TQ peak power bands are both lower, so you get more power sooner. The 5M seems to be more of a rev-happy engine compared to the 3RZ, and if you want some Crawling power (low idle power), then I wouldn't go that route...

Cylinder Size Comparison: 5M = 459.8cc  vs.  3RZ = 673.3cc
Compression Comparison: 5M = 8.8:1      vs.  3RZ = 9.5:1

If you have more compression and more displacement, you are gonna develop more torque, period. I understand that a 6cyl is powering every 60 degrees of crank rotation whereas a 4cyl is only every 90 degrees, but clearly the 5M just doesn't have what it takes to compete with the 3RZ.

I would assume that the 5M might be able to get slightly better gas mileage, since it is more of a light-duty 6cyl engine, where as the 3RZ is a Big-Block Big-Bore 4cylinder Engine. I am averaging about 17-19 mpg with the 3RZ. I bet the 5M could average 20? I don't know, but it seems that way from the figures...


How do you figure that the 5M is easier to swap in? Its not only larger, wider, and longer, but its got more wiring, more vacuum lines, maybe even a larger ecu (because its older). With the OBD-II knowledge of the 3RZ, to me it is a no brainer to go with the 3RZ. More power, lighter, newer, 100 times more easy to diagnose, modern, more compact, less weight.. The only draw back would be that the 3RZ is possibly taller, but I do not know how the 5M intake manifold is designed, so they actually might be about the same height.

oh man..........

EDIT: Inline 6 of course

[BUDDERS]

Big Mike, I hate to correct the guru on this board, but the 5mge motor is a straight six, not a v6.  Most people think this because it has 2 valve covers, but I can assure you they are a straight configuration.  

[hudlenutz]

roger... 2 valve covers = dual overhead cam 24v.  If you're seriously thinking 5m, you might see about importing a 6m from japan instead of rebuilding the 5.  The 6m has a larger displacement (3.0L), but is basically the same engine.  The six has less emissions junk, but can easily be converted back to spec with the 5m parts. 

I also have to mention the 7m.  There's lots of info out there on this swap, so I think you'd have an easier time making it 'faster', and it's more powerful than the 5m.

Alas, I am still a sucker for technology, and whenever possible, I prefer to modernize the vehicle.  So I'd vote for the 3rz.  Better yet, rebuild the 4cyl with a turbo, or convert to hydrogen or CNG, check out the toyota diesels, or even a 5vz. 

good luck with the swap

[shad [OP]]

Ya the 3rz looks nice but you have to change the oil pan and you have to build engine mounts.
I can get the 5mge with the bellhousing for about $200.
Rebuild kits for the 5mge are around $200 and a timing kit is around $60 oversized valves $65 .30 over pistions about $100.
Yes the 5mge is a older motor it is a tight fit but it does have some possibilties to it.

It's all kind of frustrating.
 I could get the 3rz but how much am I going to spend on installing it? vs just rebuilding a 5mge to have a bit more power and having it bolt up and a bit of wiring.
As far as emissions I don't have to worry about that here yet. I could probably pull most of the vaccum emissions stuff off it.

My easiest route would to be just convert my truck over from a 22r to be a 22re but for a 15-20 hp gain it's not really worth it in my opinion.




 

[BigMike]

Big Mike, I hate to correct the guru on this board, but the 5mge motor is a straight six, not a v6. Most people think this because it has 2 valve covers, but I can assure you they are a straight configuration.

Oh man, thankyou for catching that. Of course the M block is an inline 6. I keep thinking about the VZ block when ever I think about weak 6 cylinders

And I completely agree with hudlenutz, If you are going to go through this trouble, then why not go 7M? The 7M is definately a stronger engine, and I am sure it reminds the 3RZ that it is just a 4cylinder.

Question: What Engine mounts can you use? Do the stock M mounts line right up with the R mounts on the frame? Or do you have to buy some aftermarket conversion mounts? If so, how much do they run?

Thanks,
BigMike

[unclejpl4x4]

I am no brain  docter   but if i was biulding a
toy truck  for 4x4 i would use the taco
if i was using a toy truck for drag 2wd  i would use the 7m/5m    and use a twin turbo set up/juice  wich they make many a kits  from what i have seen/read. :2cent:

[hudlenutz]

To mount the 7m on a 4cyl frame, you need to combine the 22re mounts and mounts from a '5M' in a simple bolt together operation.  The same mix of parts applies to the tranny.  You need a '5M' bell to match your w-56 to the new 7M block. 

[BigMike]

Wow, that's pretty cool

We are working on a 3RZ swap kit, and will soon offer weld-on Engine mounts. The old stock engine mounts will need to be ground off, so even with the mounts, in terms of mounting the engine, the 3RZ will be a bit more work then the 7M.

[jr9162]

With the correct parts the 5M-GE and 7M-GE is a bolt in conversion. No so with the 3RZ-FE. Price is about the same but the 5M-GE conversion can be generally done for less money.

The 5M-GE and 6M-GE are 12V DOHC engines, the 7M-GE and 7M-GTE are 24V DOHC engines. The 6M-GE is basically a stroked 5M-GE. In fact early 7M-GE cranks are marked 6M.

I like the idea of a 3RZ-FE kit... However why not make 3RZ-FE to 22R-E bolt in engine mounts like Bevin designed? They'd not be any more expensive to produce and could be sold for the same price. While we're at it, come up with a bellhousing to mate the 3RZ to a R150F and/or R151F tranny. 

Given the 3RZ is modern technology and OBD-II, I'd still rather have a similar displacement and similar power banded inline six any day over an inline four, or a V8. They just run smoother and last longer. The bottom end is stronger, they're more perfectly balanced, and can be made to produce more power than a similarly displacement I4 or V8. The V6 is not even a contender. Ever wonder why the 5.9L Cummins diesel produces more torque and has a flatter torque curve than the 7.3L Powerstroke?

Other than flat fours and sixes, the perfect engine design is the inline six or a 60/65 degree V12. Engineers should take a cue from BMW and design the car around its powerplant, not design a powerplant to fit a pre-existing platform. Another interesting powerplant is the 15 degree VW 24V VR6 engine. I don't understand why nobody makes a conversion bellhousing for it....

Take a look at this web site and read first the link regarding engine smoothness. Then read the link for the VR6 under engine packaging. 
http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/tech_index.htm 

[BigMike]

I like the idea of a 3RZ-FE kit... However why not make 3RZ-FE to 22R-E bolt in engine mounts like Bevin designed? They'd not be any more expensive to produce and could be sold for the same price. While we're at it, come up with a bellhousing to mate the 3RZ to a R150F and/or R151F tranny. 

Well, no one at the shop seems to have faith in those mounts that both Bevin and I designed. They think that they are going to break and fail and not last long. So right now Bevin's engine is proving them all wrong and I will just laugh at them once they decided to just make them. It might also be a matter that we already have the jigs made for the weld on mounts, and "at the shop", the bolt on mounts have never been made, only at Bevins house.

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/tech_index.htm

Wow, you should have never showed me that page. I am supposed to be working on the forum and updating my Japan post, now I am going to be reading that thing all tomorrow morning hahahaha AWESOME!!

[BUDDERS]

Personally, I've seen well maintained 3rz's still running great without a rebuild at 365k miles +.  Try getting any M series engine to do that.  You'll be replacing that headgasket so fast it will make your head spin - not to mention all the oil leaks associated with an old engine and an even smaller engine bay to make things hard to work on it.  Don't forget that the longer crank in the M series is more prone to cracking just by being longer, then you add the extra stress of 'wheelin to the motor and you are just asking for trouble.  Why not have a more reliable toyota engine on the trail.  Sure we can all fix Birfs on the trail, but who brings enough parts and tools to swap out a crank or replace a headgasket?  Just my 

[skid]

After a quality rebuild on a 5mge, the head gasket should never be an issues. 5m cranks cracking is news to me.  They do seem to like the oil topped off from what I've seen.   Been a few bearing faliures with offroading, and low oil.  Some with just offroading.

[shad [OP]]

From reading on 5mge swaps and 7mge swaps I think most of the headgasket failures were due to inadeqaute torquing the head bolts from the factory.
After discovering the on going headgasket failures they increased the torque specs.

I was looking around I can source a low milege 7mge for around $600 down in Albany New York. I found about 4 3rz's all for over $800
I found a 3rz locally that has 140k on it but they want $650 for it.
I would still have to source a harness and ecu for it and all the other fun stuff too.
 

[jr9162]

Yeah, the 3RZ on ebay has a reserve of $800 and no ECU.

How do you figgure on cracking or breaking a forged inline six crankshaft supported by seven main bearings? Inline sixes produce awesome power cubic inch for cubic inch versus any V8. The only engine that runs as smooth (eleminating the opposed four/six) is a V12 which is nothing more than two inline sixes sharing a common journal like all V8's do.

Have you seen how much horsepower and torque tuned 2JZ-GTE's produce?

If you are that concerned about engine reliability, just drive a John Deere or Ford 8N tractor. LOL!

[WHITE_TRASH]

This next fall will see a 7mgte going into my truck.  the 2.7 is a good engine in its own but when it comes to just flat out needing HORSE POWER you can't beat a 7mgte..     I dont ever want to wish for more power.... 

[kyle_22r]

Personally, I've seen well maintained 3rz's still running great without a rebuild at 365k miles +.  Try getting any M series engine to do that.  You'll be replacing that headgasket so fast it will make your head spin - not to mention all the oil leaks associated with an old engine and an even smaller engine bay to make things hard to work on it.  Don't forget that the longer crank in the M series is more prone to cracking just by being longer, then you add the extra stress of 'wheelin to the motor and you are just asking for trouble.  Why not have a more reliable toyota engine on the trail.  Sure we can all fix Birfs on the trail, but who brings enough parts and tools to swap out a crank or replace a headgasket?  Just my 

sounds like a lot of unfounded hearsay.  i've never heard of people popping head gaskets like crazy or breaking cranks on any toyota i4 or i6 engine, unless the person who built the thing is a complete idiot.

not to mention, the 6 has 7 main bearings which really makes things much stronger, as well as the fact that it's going to be a lot smoother than any 4 cylinder.

[shad [OP]]

Well my project is on hold for a while just got laid off. I guess auto repair is slow this time a year here.
They gave me the offer to come back in a month or 2 when it picks up again.
Oh well.

[OldschoolJay]

i have a 5mge in my 80 short box, works really well. it was swapped in when i bought it, just needed to finish off some things. my truck  is rolling on some 35" krawlers with 4:37 gears. it actuallu goes pretty good on the street. works awsome on the trail as well.

[shad [OP]]

Any pics? I am on a budget now so that might be the engine for me.

[shad [OP]]

I did find a 86 toyota cressida it has 150k on it they are asking $200 for the motor but I would still need the other 5mge parts off the supra since the cressida is a automatic.

[shad [OP]]

Hmmm I saw the 2rz post it's really tempting to just put that in.
The 5mge doesn't really put out much more hp than the 2rz and you can pickup a a low milage 2rz for around $400-$500 here.
I have been checking www.car-parts.com for prices.

[AC]

you can pickup a a low milage 2rz for around $400-$500 here.
I have been checking www.car-parts.com for prices.

I used car-parts.com in my search and found it very frustrating, all the places I went to locally (oklahoma/texas) had the motor, but it was just a bare block sitting on a pallet on the shelf...no harness, sensors, computer...nothing (and no way to confirm mileage). And none of them had or new where the other parts were. Well, one place had a pick-up bed full of harnesses out in the yard and told me I was welcome to search through them and maybe I would get lucky. I was also told by all of them that I didn't need all the extras...they should already be in the truck that I'm swapping the new motor into.

   Most of the car-parts participating yards have the motors ready to be shipped anywhere in the lower 48 overnite. Maybe you'll have better luck with them on the west coast?

[Mike D]

Just throw a 2jz in there

[shad [OP]]

Anyone know anything about the 1G-GTE?

Here's one with everything:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Toyota-Supra-GA70-1GGTE-1G-GTE-M-T-Turbo-Engine-Set_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQitemZ8029597971QQrdZ1
Looks like the same w bellhousing.
Yup w58:


Specs:  1G-GTE   DOHC   4   85-90   1988*   210HP@6200   203FTLB@3800   75   75   8.5:1  Japan Supra

Little more pep than the 7mge.

So far that's about the best JDM motor setup I have seen to get besides having a whole car to get the parts off of.

As long as the 5mge mounts would work with it would work in theroy.

[shad [OP]]

I'll tell ya what Bigmike if you make me a set of engine mounts for my 3rz to bolt up to the 22r mounts I'll put one into my truck.
Will the oil pan still clear a hysteer setup?

I've been sifting though so many different engine swaps lately my eyes are red and I have a headache.

[BUDDERS]

Anyone know anything about the 1G-GTE?

Here's one with everything:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Toyota-Supra-GA70-1GGTE-1G-GTE-M-T-Turbo-Engine-Set_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQitemZ8029597971QQrdZ1
Looks like the same w bellhousing.
Yup w58:


Specs:? 1G-GTE   DOHC   4   85-90   1988*   210HP@6200   203FTLB@3800   75   75   8.5:1? Japan Supra

Little more pep than the 7mge.

So far that's about the best JDM motor setup I have seen to get besides having a whole car to get the parts off of.

As long as the 5mge mounts would work with it would work in theroy.

I have seen pics of on stuffed into a first gen 2wd truck from Austrailia a long time ago.  I think it was on this site:
http://lextreme.com/forums/index.php?