Topic: synthetic oils?

[Bigbadtoy]

i have a 91 pickup 22re with 88,000 miles on it. i want to switch to synthetic oil, amsol xl 7500 10w40 oil. do you think i will have any problems with switching to it? also anyone else run amsoil and like it? any input would be great thanks

[mudaddict]

synthetic isnt always the best fopr a warn in engine! normally its for engines with very low miles and mostly all the new engines take it! you can switch to it.. i have herd that it slips past parts that are a little warn in im not positive on that one thO! you can switch to it!nshouldnt have any problems with anyhting but its not what is recomended in the engine!

[guywithuglyyota]

I just broke in an engine with castrol 10-w30  then switched to amsoil 10w-40, seemed to work great. I also ran the amsoil filter (more than twice the size of stock)

engine ran a bit cooler, however you may develope some leaks on an engine with that mileage, I read that the cleaning properties of synthetics can work a little too well if an older engines seals are gunked up from the years of conventional oil deposits.

I did switch from valvoline in my honda accord (175,000 miles, zero leaks) to mobile 1, and only developed a seeping, not quite leaking effect from the valve cover onto the exhaust manifold, but only when the car sat for more than a week or so.

I say if your engine has zero leaks, or easily fixable ones, go for it. I have never heard a bad thing about Amsoil from anyone, and the poeple who use it usually swear by it.

 

[BigMike]

Amsoil is the best syn oil on the planet. They are the inventors of synthetic long before Penzoil or Moblie One.

Its a bit expensive but you can go nearly 10,000 miles per oil change.

As soon as I fix my leaking rear main seal, I'm switching to syn oil immediately.

BigMike

[Skinny_Pedal]

im gonna be running full sythetic in the bucket. nicks dad is a dealer for amsoil

[scheid6996]

ya i run AMS oil in my sled, im soon to be running it in everything els

[Sundowner]

true story: I ran Mobil1 in my old 85 S-10 Blazer for a month, DRAINED it, and ran 75 mi down the NJ Garden State Parkway and back at high speed. the POS didn't even run warm. 
I did it becuase I wanted to swap out the Iron Duke for a 305, and I never believed the propganda about running the motor with no oil. now all I ever sue is Mobil 1 in all my vehicles

[scheid6996]

  sounds like good stuff  right now in my truck i run GTX 20w50  but i might have to try mobil 1

[guywithuglyyota]

I should revise my post about possible leaking seals etc... after the synthetic swap. I have been doing a lot of reading on this, and it seems to be a myth. If your engine has a leak now, it will have a leak with synthetic. The base stocks used in earlier synthetic oils were incompatible with conventional oils and actually caused seal damage. However they are now compatible as stated in the amsoil website as well as the mobile website. It seems that conventional oils would damage engine seals, and synthetic actually can recondition them over time. If the engine leaks, its possible for the syn oil to soften the gasket or seal enough for it to stop leaking. I will put this theory to the test with my recently aquired 175,000 mile 22r-e with zero leaks currently using Valvoline durablend. I will be doing the amsoil engine flush, and then using amsoil 10w-30 and the super duty amsoil oil filter.   wish me luck!

[blackdiamond]

Here is my understanding in simple terms.  Synthetic oils tend to clean up any residual deposits that are left in an engine, they clean better than conventional oils.  Sometimes these deposits are masking leaks that will show up with synthetic oil.  Synthetic oil does NOT cause or create new leaks, it just exposes preexisting leaks that may have been plugged up with crap.  I switched my 85 over to synthetic around 130,000 and it started leaking like a stuck pig  so I changed it back to conventional oil and it stopped leaking after a few weeks.  It may not always be the case, but seemingly no harm was done in my case.  I change my oil on a regular bases regardless of mileage (last time was under 1,000) and as a result my oil runs clear after 3 to 5 months of use in the truck.  I have heard that synthetic blend won't "cause" leaks but is an improvement over conventional.  The Toyota dealer told me that blend isn't a synthetic/conventional mix, but rather a super purified conventional oil  I put some blend in my wifes car and noticed that the engine ran quieter and smoother, about the same as when I switch my Tundra to synthetic.  I am planning to try blend in my 85 on the next change.   

[kyle_22r]

around when it's time to change my oil again(3500 on the new motor) i'm thinking about going with amsoil 10w40 or 15w40.  i'm running delo 400 15w40 and it's great stuff.  no leaks, except from the damned half moon gasket

[scheid6996]

ya delo 400 is good stuff, but its mostly 4 the DIESELS

[Cheesemaker]

From what i've seen is it works good for lower mileage engines, not for worn high mileage engines.  I've known people to use it and next thing they had oil puking out of everywhere.  All oil companies say that you can run it with no problems, but will stick to regular oil, cause I can't see spending the price for it.  A mechanic buddy of mine tried it once and it knocked a bunch of sludge loose and plugged up his oil pickup and killed his high performance motor!    He was not happy!  One good report I've seen of synthetic is it does increase mpg!

[scheid6996]

ya i heard the same thing, u have to start running it when ur motor is new, or dont run it

[blackdiamond]

ya i heard the same thing, u have to start running it when ur motor is new, or dont run it

I know of one case where a guy I know put synthetic oil in his 130,000 mile car (don't remember the type) and was impressed.  He said the motor had a slight tick/knock when he first started running it and it went away after about 20,000 miles.  He was fully in favor of synthetics, but as we all know, if there are any questionable seals in the engine it will leak.

[FATB0Y]

I know of one case where a guy I know put synthetic oil in his 130,000 mile car (don't remember the type) and was impressed. He said the motor had a slight tick/knock when he first started running it and it went away after about 20,000 miles. He was fully in favor of synthetics, but as we all know, if there are any questionable seals in the engine it will leak.

I run synthetic in my Fatboy and I switched my toy over to it and it started knocking (conn. rod) so I switched back but after reading this I think I'l give it another try

[blackdiamond]

I run synthetic in my Fatboy and I switched my toy over to it and it started knocking (conn. rod) so I switched back but after reading this I think I'll give it another try

I would research synthetic oils extensively before blindly taking my advise.  Everything that I have posted is truth as I know it; however I will admit that taking mechanical advise from me is like asking a donkey for financial advise I am a and that is why I enjoy learning from this site.

I am an engineer by profession (not mechanical) so I claim to have the ability to learn and apply what I read and I have enough working knowledge about engines to form and opinion that I usually run by some trusted friends that know more than I.  My guess on your connection rod knocking would be that it may have a problem that is/was being hidden by the conventional oil deposits in your engine.  It is possible that the synthetic was cleaning out the crap and allowing the failing part to move more and make noise.  It seems like a similar to synthetic oil leaking when the conventional oil didn't simply because it was removing the deposits (clogs) in the bad seals.  Just my 

You might try SeaFoam that seems to get great reviews on this site, I tried it and was mildly impressed with the results.

[FATB0Y]

I run synthetic in my Fatboy and I switched my toy over to it and it started knocking (conn. rod) so I switched back but after reading this I think I'l give it another try

What I mean is the knock is still there when the engine is cold so changing back over to synthetic can't hurt and it may let me get more miles out of it.

[firekiller]

I run synthetic in everything.  My 83 is now running on synthentic straight over from dinosaur oil.  The only thing I was cautioned about was not to run it for break in of a  new motor.  Just too damn slick and does not let rings seat.  But after the usual 500 or so miles of break in, run it and never look back.  I run synthetic in my Buell and my dads old 52 Pan without a problem.

Just my 

Tico
 

[mudaddict]

the only abd thing about synthetics is the damn price!!!! like 4 bucks sometimes 5 bucks its rediculous!

[FATB0Y]

well ya get what ya pay fur

[billy hill]

Don't know if this true or not. But, I've heard that the molecules in synthetic oils are smaller than those of a conventional oil. If that is true, they will find leaks that normal oil can't get through.

[kyle_22r]

synthetic oils clean better than a conventional oil, so if you have a leak, a synthetic will find it.  it won't cause a leak if there's no reason to(e.g. you put the engine together right).

[blackdiamond]

Don't know if this true or not. But, I've heard that the molecules in synthetic oils are smaller than those of a conventional oil. If that is true, they will find leaks that normal oil can't get through.

Check out this website for more information:  http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/articleviewer.asp?pg=ccr20050201so&cccid=2&scccid=2

It give some good information on how synthetics are made.

[blackdiamond]

Question for BigMIke: What data/experience do you have with AMSoil to prove that it is the best?  I don't disagree that it might be the best, but I am just curious why you feel so strongly about it.

For All: Anybody run Synthetic Blends?  When I put Castrol Syntec in my Tundra I noticed that the engine seems to run a little be smoother and quieter.  I was worried about the leak issues with my wifes Cavalier so I opted for Castrol Blend and it had a similar effect on the engine.  I am not sure if all Blends are essentially the same or if they are all completely different.  Syntec claims a conventional base oil, while Valvoline claims a synthetic base.  Anyone know anything about this?  How about AMSoil Blend?

[BigMike]

Question for BigMIke: What data/experience do you have with AMSoil to prove that it is the best? I don't disagree that it might be the best, but I am just curious why you feel so strongly about it.

My claim is pretty one minded and heres why. About 2 years ago I was at a Denny's cramming for a test and these guys behind me had a hardcore discusion about chemistry/oil formulas and what not. I was listening in and I think they must have noticed me as the one guy nearest introducted himself and asked what I was studying. I told him what my major was and he was curious to see how much I knew about engines. After quizzing me about oils and lubrications he said that I was a good kid and he gave me his card and told me to meet him the next day.

It turns out that these two guys are on a leading oil research team who helped design oils for NASA and others. They are working on an oil that when it combusts it molecularly turns into some kind of detergent rather then a contamanent and it will also lower emissions by consuming unburned particulates; like I said crazy chemistry talk of which I only understood about 20%

So as for my one sided mind, to be perfectly honest, I've never even used Amsoil, but both of these guys swear by it, were distributing it, gave me a bunch of fliers, yadda yadda yadda. They told me that Amsoil is the inventor of Synthetic oil, like back in the 60's.

I asked them how they felt about the other "over the counter" oils and he drew me a graph of his experience with testing oils. He told me that the order he would use syn oil is as follows: 100% is Amsoil, 80% is Pennzoil, and then wwaayy down at like 40% he recommended Vavoline, then Castrol, and even further down like 10% he recommended Mobil One.

And that is strange because so many manufactures use Mobil One, like Mercedes, so I'm sure they have their own researchers, but maybe Mobil One has gotten better in the last couple of years because both of these guys HATE mobil one and they said its all a bunch of market hype.

About Blended oils, the guys told me to avoid them. Also they said to avoid MULTIWEIGHTS. But everyone uses multiweights ?? The guys told me that multiweight, like 10w-30 foam and do not last nearly as long as a single weight, like a straight 30. Also, my friend does Circle track racing and he told me that every car only uses single weight oils. I don't know any politics behind that but its another thing to look into I guess..

Anyways, yesterday I was at autozone, and I needed to change my oil, so I just went with some Synthetic oil despite my rear leaking main seal. I got some Pennzoil Syn Oil. I got the new Platinum oil and went with a 10w-30. I'll let you know if my leak gets worse.

Later
BigMike

[guywithuglyyota]

I used to research this stuff to death, mainly just staring at graphs and oil tests etc.... Yes every oil company will claim they are the best. When is the last time you heard a company say "Our oil is almost the best." But from what I have read, Amsoil is the way to go. Royal purple is probably next however Amsoil did some comparissons And recommend you change it more often because it contains Moly-b which is anti sieze compound. Works great but apprently can clog filters, and passages when run for extended periods, but were talking over 10,000 miles. My big complaint with Amsoil is local availability, I have to order it, in fact I ordered a case last week and have yet to hear from anyone about it. Price is not an issue with me bacause it basically pays for itself in regards to longevity, Amsoil invites the customer to do an acidity test on there engine oil, and you will find it maintains like new levels and then some under most conditions and using there heavy duty filter.

In a nutshell, from what I have read in the various forums, tech data etc....Amsoil is the way to go, however it is the filtration method used that matters most. If you use there bypass oil system you can run the same oil for a VERY long time. I just use the Heavy duty Amsoil filter, its over twice the size of stock and filters some thing like .5 micron.  The bypass setup can cost about 180 bucks. There is a writeup on it on 4x4wire.com

http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/amsoil_bypass_filter/

[blackdiamond]

I told him what my major was and he was curious to see how much I knew about engines.

What did you study in school?  I am trying to contact the major oil producers to see if their synthetic products are group 3 or 4.  I guess that group 4 are the only 100% synthetic oils.  From what I saw on pirate4x4 Castrol is class 3 and maybe Mobile 1, Royal Purple and AMSoil are group 4.  I will post if I confirm anything.

[blackdiamond]

Which Synthetic Oils are API Base Group III & IV?  I have contacted several of the oil companies directly, via email, to answer this question and will update this thread as I get information.  I am also trying to get a good explaination of the difference between group III vs. group IV oils.

"Royal Purple uses Group IV Base Oils."  David Canitz, Tech Services Manager (Royal Purple Ltd), dcanitz@royalpurple.com 

"The AMSOIL XL7500 series oils use the group 3 base stocks. All the other 4 cycle oils use group 4."  Jim Van, AMSOIL Technical Services 

"Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, the synthetic base stock we use is a combination of group 4 and group 5 stocks."  Dave from Red Line Oil

Mobile 1 responed and said they are fully synthetic so I have requested specific clarification, I am nearly positive that they are group 4   

Valvoline said that they have base oils that are build up (group 4?) from small atoms and others that are broken down and modified (group 3).  I have also asked for clarification from them.   

Castrol has responded with the claim of 100% synthetic base oil; however, based on the Mobil 1 vs. Castrol court case it can be assumed that they are group 3.  I have requested clarification.


API Base Group III & IV seems like it should be a simple question to answer, I tend to be skeptical of companies that can't, or are not willing, to provide specific product information.

Clarification of API Base Group 3 vs. Group 4

From Royal Purple:
"Group III oils are mineral oils refined from crude that have received more processing.  They are still mineral oils with contamination that is not
bothered to be refined out.  Group IV oils are man made hydrocarbons that have no contamination and are all uniform in molecular size, resulting in less internal friction and no contamination.  Contamination is what causes oils to break down, be it fuel, dirt, or water.  So if you're starting with an oil that already has contamination products still in it due to lack of refining, it will not work as well as a synthetic version."

From AMSOIL:
"Group 3 basestocks are derived from highly refined petroleum crude. They are heads and shoulders above conventional petroleum oils and because of their molecular can be legally classified as synthetic. Class 4 and 5 basestocks however, are made from laboratory made chemicals."


Here is a good link for a synthetic oil education

http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/synthetic_oil_article/index.html

The article provides some information directly from synthetic manufactures (Redline, Amsoil, Syntec, etc) but they don't all agree on everything.  It explains how and why synthetic oil got a negative reputation and how it is different now.  It also provides some reasons why auto manufacturers still recommend 3,000 miles changes (My synopsis: Due to warranty concerns manufactures like to have the opportunity to periodically inspect the cars).  The bottom line is that synthetic oils are always superior to petroleum oils; however, under normal driving conditions the difference may not be noticeable.  Synthetics maintain their chemical properties at much more extreme temperatures (above 400 degrees and below -30 degrees), but how often are then conditions seen?  Using them can be beneficial if an engine failure is experience.  If a motor overheats, for example, a synthetic oil will provide better protection.  Is it possible that some of the differing opinions on drain interval are a result of the difference between Group III and Group IV synthetics?

[guywithuglyyota]

If anybody cares I just changed to Amsoil 10w-30 using there engine flush. My gas mileage has gone up by 35 miles to a tank. I drive the same distance back and forth to work. Im driving to Texas this weekend so I will be able to see the savings on a larger scale.

The engine has 175,000 miles and so far no leaks after switching. So Im impressed with this product.