Topic: Automatic and a 3rz ?

[BadnewsBob]

I want a more power than my 22R has and I really don't want to go chevy. BUT. I have a bad back and a busted up left foot, I would like to go with an automatic. Anyone have info on how well they work and can I adapt it to my 85 with dual t cases?

I have a 4.3 and a T350 ready to swap but I would like to stay with the 4 banger. I know nothing about Toyota autos thou.

I think a 1UZ would be the cats meow but I know even less about them except they are light and powerful for what they are.

My 22R is pretty fresh but I like the ideal of the big block 4 banger.

So what have ya got men?

[Rocksurfer]

I have a friend that runs a 4.3 backed by a T350 and duals, loves it and is an awesome little truggy.

[BadnewsBob [OP]]

That would be the most convenient for me, I already have them, T case adapter and headers are all I would have to buy. I can make a radiator fit and motor mounts are easy to make. I also have a carb intake I can use till I figure out the TBI.

[RCKSQRL]

My .02

Got the 4.3/700r4 combo went from 22re w56
Was a tired ol re and got a great deal on the motor trans for swap.

Wish I would have kept the 4banger. Lemme explain-

4.3/700r4

Power is good,  torque is awesome in the  rocks BUT, vibrating SOB, mpg suck....... Like real bad. Acceleration is only a smidge better than ringing the neck of the 22re. Where it helped me was ease on the rocks, and I can pull a hill now without going down to 3rd gear.

With the auto I don't need the front t-case. IF the front case is locked in I have a real hard time to  stop, drives through the brakes. I have a 1 ton master, rear discs, V6 front calipers and fj60 vented rotors.

I supplied all parts and mechanic friend did the swap (due to my time and lack of space to do so) and with everything I had to buy it was about the same or more expense than rebuilding the 22re.
Harness, exhaust, radiator, adapter etc. Stock guages wont work without swapping sensors onto the chevy motor. We Stuffed the 4.3 into the engine bay but there wasn't room for a good fan so had 2 small fans. Needless to say I've had overheating issues which has promoted the latest upgrade to my krawler.

Reliability is ok, but nowhere near the toyota. My dream would have been a 3rz however I was unable to find one local so wasn't an option for me.

If you can get a 3rz I'd go that way. Realize ANY auto will suck power from your power plant.

The toyota trans is solid for off roading. I did a lot of research on them
And talked to many who have used them without any issues. (The trans is virtually identical to the j**p auto as they are both aisin transmissions, which have been wheeled a long time and hard!)

IF a trailer rig 4.3 isn't a bad choice, if a driver I'd stay 4banger.
For the time I'm out without my vehicle due to fixing issues, money and my disappointment overall wish I had kept the 4cyl. I went into this thinking the motor would be quite peppy and while its nice it isn't jaw dropping for me. I am one of the poor saps who has to drive their rig everywhere as I can't afford a tow rig and trailer.
I'm the only one local who drives their rig to and from the trail so I have different needs.....

Sorry for the long winded reply but... It's my thought!


Sent from magic wish granting phone

[R.DesJardin]

  Hello..........I run a automatic behind a 2RZ, and dual cases. I like it, simple swap, bolts right up. The t-case adapter is the V6 adapter that Marlin sells, very simple did I already say that. I have 4.88's and wish I had 5.29's, then with the 36's I think it would have better road manners but since I trailer mine everywhere to wheel I could give a CRAP about how it drives on the highway. I have build threads here and on Pirate.
There is no substitute for cc's so apples to apples with all the opinions is sometimes difficult to find an answer.

[BadnewsBob [OP]]

I might just save my pennies an go with a 3rz and put the 4.3 in something else.

[BadnewsBob [OP]]

So do you guys have a preference about which 3rz to use? Any year that is better or easier? I am gonna start shopping for a wrecked truck to buy hopefully complete and go from there.

[RCKSQRL]

Read the 3rz database, whatever you get make sure you get the computer, harness and everything else you can from the donor vehicle. More is better in that case!



Sent from magic wish granting phone

[R.DesJardin]

Read the 3rz database, whatever you get make sure you get the computer, harness and everything else you can from the donor vehicle. More is better in that case!



Sent from magic wish granting phone

X2 exactly, everything is best.

[BigMike]

My opinion is subjective since I own a 3RZ converted Rock Crawler and for 6 years it was my daily driver.

I come from an uprising where lightweight and simplicity is king. As you own a 22R, I think you can appreciate how it runs when lugged down to 300 - 500 RPM and I assure you the 3RZ has this same great characteristic and that you'll be hard-pressed to find a V6 engine lug and bog down the same without stalling. Therefore, in my biased opinion, I believe 4 cylinders out Crawl V6 engines because of their ability to run smooth and bog down without stalling. There is just something about the throttle response under 800 rpm that I just love with a 4 cylinder that I've never found in a 6 cylinder gas engine.

Other things I'd mention are the lightweight of a 4cyl, they don't cramp your engine compartment, they only have one heater (1 exhaust manifold), cheaper to service (less plugs, wires, oil, antifreez, et cetera), don't require some huge radiator with a huge fan, and use a smaller diameter and lighter exhaust system. The flip side of course is less torque, and the counter to this is that you'll be more likely to break parts with the extra torque and weight. Less you risk the slippery slope of more power = stronger transmission/tcase/axles = stronger drive lines = more weight = heavier rated springs = heavier rated shocks = stronger shock towers = stronger spring hangers = reinforcing the frame = more weight = then you need more power = swap the V6 for a V8 = where do you stop.

Again, I'm openly admitting I am a simpleton who does not wheel by momentum. I don't play in the mud and the 3RZ has always been enough for my needs in the snow. As for gas mileage, with a 5-speed W56, 37" MTRs, and 5.29 diff gearing, I will make 20 MPG all day long running 65 mph fully loaded on a flat freeway. My truck has never been on a trailer, and only two steep grades I frequent fully loaded will drop my speed under 60 MPH requiring 3rd gear with the 37s for a few brief moments (two sections on hwy 168 towards Shaver Lake, aka 'The Four Lanes', and only one section on hwy 80 towards Lake Tahoe).

Having said all this however, an Automatic will certainly zap some spunk out of the 3RZ. R.DesJardin's response of his 2RZ+Auto is very reassuring.

Things I'd wonder are the following:

What are your uses with your truck? How much mud and snow do you play in? What sort of highway hills are you pulling? Is your truck on the heavy side for a 4 cylinder P/U? How much cargo do you carry?

Do you always have a passenger? How much stop-and-go city driving are you doing? How many gallons does your gas tank hold? What is your budget on this project? Do you live in a county with strict smog laws?

Do you have another vehicle you can drive while your truck is down for 2 months? How comfortable are you with wiring? Are you able to do this yourself (engine hoist/welder/tools/jack)? What is the maximum size tires you think you'd ever run with this truck?

I've heard great things about the 4.3 and despite my love for the 3RZ I'm actually leaning towards the 4.3 for you for the following two reasons: 1) You've already got the parts, and 2) You'll have more torque for the auto setup. However it is very interesting what RCKSQRL has mentioned because the last 3RZ conversion I helped with was where the guy removed his Chevy 4.3 and replaced it with a 3RZ. It's true, see Dean's conversion here. I don't exactly remember the issue, but I recall he was tired of not having any power because he couldn't get the right ECU combination to match whatever year his 4.3 was. He went through 4 or 5 different ECU and Howell wiring harnesses, pulled the 4.3 out numerous times trying to fix issues and in the end as I remember it, he got tired of the added headaches associated with the larger engine. It only took him one trip around the block in my 3RZ powered rig and that same week he sourced and purchased a 3RZ.

Still I'm undecided on what you should do. If you are the person who is "r-e-a-l-l-y" looking for more power than your 22R, then I think you'd be better off with a 3.4 5VZ-FE Tacoma 6-cylinder. The reason why I suggest this over the 4.3 is for its improved ability to not stall out. The same applies with the 3RZ and I'll explain:

• On pre-1995 EFI engines, 22R-E/22R-TE/3VZ-E, the idle is set with an idle set screw which limits how much air may slip past the throttle plate allowing the engine to breath when the throttle is fully closed. When these engines begin to stall or take a load under 800 rpm without any throttle input from the driver, all they can do is richen up the fuel mixture in a last minute SOS attempt at staying alive. Of course only so much fuel may be added before the engine floods out and stalls.
  
  
• On post-1995 EFI engines, specifically the 2RZ/3RZ/5VZ-FE, the idle is set by the computer using an air control valve which is a little auxiliary throttle plate located in parallel with the main throttle plate. There is no idle set screw. There is nothing on the throttle body to adjust. Instead, the ECU regulates how the engine breathes at an idle using an electromagnetic solenoid to operate this auxiliary throttle plate. Therefore, when the idle drops below 800 rpm, the ECU on these newer engines can not only increase fuel by altering the fuel injectors but they may also increase air delivery by altering this auxiliary throttle. What this means for the Rock Crawler is that when I'm idling along in gear and I bump into a rock unawares dropping my engine speed beneath 800 rpm, the engine surges and fights it's way back to 800 rpm much sooner than my right ankle could ever react. The same applies when I am feathering the gas during an obstacle: If I don't feather the gas soon enough and the engine bogs, I'll notice extra throttle being applied which prevents an embarrassing stall-out in front of bystanders. It's not a drive-by-wire system mind you. We still have full control over the main throttle. It's simply the small aux. throttle which the ECU is controlling and goes hand-in-hand with low rpm Rock Crawling.

The 2RZ, 3RZ, and 5VZ-FE all have this. The 4.3 does not. So again, if you are the type of person who is really looking for more power, than I'd compare prices of a 3.4-liter swap with that of a 3RZ swap as you may find more satisfaction from all the hard work of an engine swap if you went straight for the engine that can pull all the hills you'd ever encounter at 80 MPH. Short of a Supercharger, the 3RZ cannot touch the 5VZ in the hills. It will make better gas mileage however.

I suppose some final words of assurance for the 3RZ is this: The 3RZ outperforms the Turbo fuel-injected version of your engine (so even if you turbo charged your engine you'd still fall short of the 3RZ -- this blows my mind when I think about this comparison) and it outperforms the 3.0 Toyota V6. As for reliability, it's certainly hard to compare with your fix-it-with-twigs-and-berries carbureted setup, but I simply carry an extra ECU, fuel pump, igniter, and air flow meter in my recovery box and I'm pretty much set for a zombie apocalypse. Lastly, the OBD-II system of the 2/3RZ and 5VZ systems makes it painfully simple to identify issues with the engine.


BigMike

[R.DesJardin]

 Mike,
Great write up.
You left out the ever increasing in popularity the 1UZ swap for more......... Power. It's light weight for a V8, has a bunch more power than the 5VZ. Downside is converting to a manual trans, and the size for 1st gen guys. The RZ motors look stock in a 1st gen. and fit great. I'm leaning heavily toward the 1UZ in my next build, A340 and duals, with 5.29's for sure, in a 2nd gen Xtra cab.

[BadnewsBob [OP]]

Nice post Mike.   I live on the east coast in Kentucky, Some who don't know may wonder what difference that makes.  Well you can't crawl the same here, everything is slick even if you aren't in mud or water. We tend to use the skinny pedal a lot more than you do out west. Big V 8s are the norm around here and they run less gear for more wheel speed.  I try to stay small because I don't want to buy axles or diffs every other weekend. Watch some of Madrams videos on rock bouncers, plenty of them on U Tube, Tim Cameron and the Tanners are nut jobs, But that's how they do it around here.

I wouldn't go with the automatic if not for medical reasons. I don't want to stop wheeling but that clutch is getting harder on my body. My truck can do 90% of the trails now, I stop and watch the horse power crowd break stuff and then I go around that bad spot.  I also drive my truck on road a lot, It will run 85 down the highway with no problem and there is only one grade around that I have to down shift for and then just to 4th but then again we don't have long grades like you do.

The truck is running great right now so I think I will collect pennies and read a lot more before I decide.

[BigMike]

It sounds like for the majority of what you wheel, you enjoy the 22R and have a good time. I think the 3RZ would suit you very well. I'd assume that whatever requires full throttle in 4th gear right now would be 5th gear in an auto 3RZ with power to spare.

Some comparisons:

Engine	Disp	Bore	Stroke	Horsepower	Torque	Compression
22R	2366cc	92mm	89mm	96  @ 4,800	129 @ 2,800	9.0
22R-E	2366	92	89	112 @ 4,600	142 @ 3,400	9.0
22R-TE	2366	92	89	135 @ 4,800	173 @ 2,800	7.5
2RZ-FE	2438	95	86	142 @ 5,000	160 @ 4,000	9.5
3RZ-FE	2693	95	95	150 @ 4,800	177 @ 4,000	9.5
3VZ-E	2958	87.5	82	150 @ 4,800	180 @ 3,400	9.0
5VZ-FE	3378	93.5	82	190 @ 4,800	220 @ 3,600	9.6
1UZ-FE	3969	87.5	82.5	250 @ 5,600	261 @ 4,400	10.0
2UZ-FE	4663	94	84	245 @ 4,800	315 @ 3,400	9.6

Regarding the 1UZ, I've both heard and witnessed that it suffers the same fate as the 7M-GTE in that you have to rev the crap out of it to get any torque from it. But the dyno graphs look great, making great torque right off idle.

Tired 22R-E vs single coil 3RZ-FE:


Here is a quad coil 3RZ-FE:


Here is a 3VZ-E VS 5VZ-FE:


Here is a 1UZ-FE:

[HogCanyonHopper]

I have just recently got my truck out on the trail for its first real 4WD outings. I have to agree with Mike about being able to drop the rpm's down to the 600-800 rpm range and still throttle out smoothly. The 3RZ is such an awesome swap, I am constantly pleased every time I drive my truck at how well the motor runs, so smooth with enough power when I need it. Love the 3RZ swap. Singlehandedly the best thing I could have done to improve the off road capability of my truck. Best swap for first gen imo.  And I love my Marlin built W56HD     

[R.DesJardin]

I ran a mildly built 22R before my RZ swap, the low end of a 22R is huge, that being said with an automatic you don't notice the difference in low rpm torque loss as much. And the RZ motors seem to pull good to a rpm above the 22r. I have wheeled with a 1UZ with a 5spd behind it and yes it suffered bad from no low end, but then again with an auto which is what the OP is swapping to I this i would be a good option for more hp. That being said I think the RZ series are a great choice and have no regrets.

[Wainiha]

Great info Big Mike.  It is nice to see some analytical tech.  All I usually can offer is..I like or it seems good to me...

[BadnewsBob [OP]]

I am loving the response on this, Right now the Big block four banger is the top contender for me.

I think that 1UZ would make a sweet drag motor in a RWD Corolla or Celica.

[THK Matt]

3rz and an auto would be perfect for what you want.

the 1uZ and a R154 hybrid is what I plan to swap into my next fully independent suspended drag truck.

[emsvitil]

Here's a low rpm 22RE trick............

Wheel with the AC on (idle speed with AC on is adjustable)

If the rpm drops too low (rpm cutoff adjustable with the AC amplifier) the AC amplifier cuts the AC compressor off, giving you an rpm boost......

[R.DesJardin]

3rz and an auto would be perfect for what you want.

the 1uZ and a R154 hybrid is what I plan to swap into my next fully independent suspended drag truck.

Well at least a 1UZ A340 IFS truck, hello this is the future.................bwaaahhaaaahaaaa

[THK Matt]

rear independent suspension using a Supra IRS subframe??

[BadnewsBob [OP]]

Are you gonna try and make it handle like a Supra or just drag race it?

[THK Matt]

Are you gonna try and make it handle like a Supra or just drag race it?

autocross it, coilovered on all 4 corners, sway bars, LSD, lowered 6-8in
been doing research on build ups.

[R.DesJardin]

Well at least a 1UZ A340 IFS truck, hello this is the future.................bwaaahhaaaahaaaa

I should have said 4x4 truggy, I think for snow wheelin and PNW rock strewn trails this would be sweeeeet.

[THK Matt]

long travel yes.

[BadnewsBob [OP]]

autocross it, coilovered on all 4 corners, sway bars, LSD, lowered 6-8in
been doing research on build ups.

Nice, I am getting started on a Locost roadster, I hope to autocross it some.