Author Topic: 20R to 22R swap (Read 14669 times)

yotacorps81 · « **on:** Nov 29, 2012, 05:05:40 PM »

I currenty have a 20R with 369,000 miles on it in my early model 81 Yota pickup. Needless to say, it needs some help in it's old age. But I'm debating on swapping in a 22R instead of building the engine that is in the truck now. I want more power but I want the same kind of durability. I know the 22R has a great reputation, but I'm not sure of the extent of modifications and component changes I will have to do. Has anyone done this kind of swap or does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should do?

Cheesemaker · « **Reply #1 on:** Nov 29, 2012, 07:32:21 PM »

That should be a fairly simple swap. If you are willing to build your own motor, I'd go with a early 22r block and put a 20R head on it. That will bump your compression up a little and you will gain a little in power. (IIRC)

But there are others on here that have way more knowledge about the wonderful world of 22R's. I just tend to let too many braincells get flushed down the toilet too often. $Beer Chug\'n$

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #2 on:** Nov 29, 2012, 07:34:19 PM »

If you find an early (81-84) 22R then it will bolt in with no mods and you could run your 20R head and intake on the 22R block. this basically gives you a 20R with the bigger pistons of the 22R engine.
The 22R block is basically the same casting as a 20R but with larger pistons. everything else is identical to the 20R. the problem is Toyota changed the head design when they came out with the 22R and the new design just did NOT flow as efficiently as the 20R.
My current motor is a bored out 22R but soon I will be building a new engine with a 22R block and 20R everything else (except the carb).
I used to have a 20R/22R but blowed it up running triple digits on the interstate.

22rMudToy · « **Reply #3 on:** Nov 29, 2012, 08:11:43 PM »

I have this swap done on my 80 pickup with an 85 22r. Goin from a 2.2 to 2.4 liter motor you wont see a big difference but you will notice one. I have an engnbldr cam and weber 38 with 2.5 exhaust to a glasspack. Its good power over stock and hasnt cost me an arm and a leg. These motors wont never be super cars no matter what but i like spending money on em cause they are reliable. What id recommend if you wanna build a 22r, build it right with some power. It'll cost a little more and take a little more time but in the end you will step back and be real happy. Im currently about to add a header (DT or LCE) and in the spring ill add a putney performance head and next summer is when i plan to rebuild as a stroker and add an LCE stage 2 cam. But once you put it in its almost an identical matchup. Been a few years so i dont remember everything me and my dad had to do. Hope i helped you some

tgmaul88 · « **Reply #4 on:** Nov 29, 2012, 08:40:54 PM »

Id drive it till 400,000 then lay her down

yotacorps81 · « **Reply #5 on:** Nov 30, 2012, 12:50:51 PM »

I'm willing to build my own motor and want to build it right the first time. Does the 20R head bolt directly to the 22R or do I have to do some modifications? Also, what are my tranny options when doing this swap? Are there any that will bolt right in, or am I going to have to do some drive line modifications? I plan on drivin on the 20R until I have the 22R ready to drop in. I figure that once I do the swap, I'd keep the 20R around and rebuild it as a spare motor just incase!

22rMudToy · « **Reply #6 on:** Nov 30, 2012, 01:14:35 PM »

As long as you have a pre 85 22r block to work with, the head should bolt right up but you have to have a 20r intake too. if the block is 85+ it can still be done but its alot more costly because you'd have to have the deck machined down to the correct height for the timing chain to fit properly and ya da ya da ya da. There are alot of options out there to work with. if i were you and had the right block, id definetly do the hybrid and build the 20r head with maybe some over sized valves, cam, springs, retainers, big carb, exhaust, etc. You combine the higher compression with a solid bottom end and built head, id be willin to put it on the line with a 5VE anyday. Of course this is in a perfect world where money and time isnt a concern lol. Another thing to look out for if you do the hybrid is rocker arms, the 20r rocker arms are steel and the 22r arms are aluminum which are lighter and quieter. Atleast im 99% sure on that but dont kill me if im wrong. Im assuming any transmission that went with a 22r would work and im sure you would have to change your drive train with a few of them, im just not sure which ones. Hope im helping!

yotacorps81 · « **Reply #7 on:** Nov 30, 2012, 03:52:31 PM »

You definantly are helping! I've already learned alot. Do you know of any websites that might have the parts I would need to build the 20R head that way?

22rMudToy · « **Reply #8 on:** Nov 30, 2012, 09:45:49 PM »

The good thing about the R series motors is there is alot of parts for these little motors from stroker kits to forced induction its all out there. LCE is always a great place to go. I think they actually have 20r heads built already with whatever you want, of course its costly, but in the long run it'll pay off. Make sure you do your research too. LCE is a great place to call with any questions, ENGNBLDR and putneys 22reperformance are who i call or email alot when i have questions. They are all top of the line when it comes to customer service and knowledge. They can help you get what you're looking for and make sure you match all the parts up right. Double row timing chains, high capacity rocker shafts, oil pumps, and so on shouldn't be overlooked because reliability is just as important as horsepower. Im not a master of these things though so make sure you do research on your own too so i dont mess you up by accident.

yotacorps81 · « **Reply #9 on:** Dec 02, 2012, 12:18:17 PM »

Thank you for all that info. I will definently do my research cause I want it rght the frst time. Another question for yall though... Will my transfer case work with an L52 tranny or will I need a different one?

Cheesemaker · « **Reply #10 on:** Dec 02, 2012, 07:10:18 PM »

Rock4Runner · « **Reply #11 on:** Dec 02, 2012, 09:02:46 PM »

I have had one 22r block I was thinking to scrap but now after read all this Info, I change my mind and I go int to build a Hydra. I have a old mechanic friend he say his can put all together for me. So now time to do some re arch for parts.

Rocksurfer · « **Reply #12 on:** Dec 02, 2012, 10:33:28 PM »

FYI with the year of truck you have and the upgrade from the 20R to the 22R check the general plugs for the wiring you are on the edge of having different plug ends. All of the plug ends were different on my 80's 20R over the 22R that was found. Had to change/cut wires and such. So check your donor and if they are different then you will need both ends of the plugs.

22rMudToy · « **Reply #13 on:** Dec 03, 2012, 09:34:20 AM »

I told you a lie earlier. The 75-80 20r blocks and 81-84 22r block height were both 9.120". The 85+ 22r block height were like 8.something i cant remember the exact number so basically if you wanna do a hybrid. you basically have no choice but a pre 85 block. It seems like iv seen someone do one with a 85+ block though? maybe they just milled the head down alot?

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #14 on:** Dec 03, 2012, 04:45:51 PM »

Quote from: 22rMudToy on Dec 03, 2012, 09:34:20 AM

I told you a lie earlier. The 75-80 20r blocks and 81-84 22r block height were both 9.120". The 85+ 22r block height were like 8.something i cant remember the exact number so basically if you wanna do a hybrid. you basically have no choice but a pre 85 block. It seems like iv seen someone do one with a 85+ block though? maybe they just milled the head down alot?

ok, lets dial back on spitting out numbers hoss

the 22R block will bolt right in using the same transmission, starter, engine mounts, everything.
you want numbers?? the 20R and early 22R blocks had a deck height of 11.280 inches the 8-84 and newer 22R/RE/RTE all had deck heights of 11.080 inches.
the later 22RE blocks can NOT be used. well, anything could be done with the right skills and enough money but realistically 85 (August of 84 actually) AND NEWER BLOCKS WONT WORK FOR BUILDING A 20R/22R HYBRID

Quote from: yotacorps81 on Nov 30, 2012, 03:52:31 PM

You definantly are helping! I've already learned alot. Do you know of any websites that might have the parts I would need to build the 20R head that way?

you dont need to put a lot of money into this. if you have it great if not dont worry. pulling your 20R head off your current block and clean it up, put new valve stem seals in it and sit it right down on a good 22R block and GO. its that simple. EVERYTHING can be from the 20R EXCEPT the pistons and the carb. a header will be of tremendous help

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #15 on:** Dec 03, 2012, 04:57:04 PM »

keep this in mind you are in effect building a 20R engine with 22R pistons.
the crankshaft, rods, flywheel, clutch, bell housing, oil pump, water pump, radiator, starter and motor mounts all interchange between the 20R and 22R. you can even run a 22R carb (with an adapter) on the 20R intake. you will need to get rid of that extremely anemic stock 20R exhaust. if a header cant be afforded get a 22R exhaust is flows better than the 20R does IF you get the one that has the twin pipes down to the cat.
the 20R starter is a direct drive and uses more battery than the gear reduction 22R so grab a starter for a 81-84 22R

Quote from: Rocksurfer on Dec 02, 2012, 10:33:28 PM

FYI with the year of truck you have and the upgrade from the 20R to the 22R check the general plugs for the wiring you are on the edge of having different plug ends. All of the plug ends were different on my 80's 20R over the 22R that was found. Had to change/cut wires and such. So check your donor and if they are different then you will need both ends of the plugs.

this is true if you swap a complete 22R engine over to your truck. BUT if building a 20/22 hybrid you will use the 20R distributor and coil

22rMudToy · « **Reply #16 on:** Dec 03, 2012, 06:59:29 PM »

Well im never one to argue cause i know im not always right but i got the block height numbers from LCE themselves and anyone who has worked on an R series motor will agree LCE knows there toyota motors. Maybe they measured from a different spot on the block than wherever you got your numbers from. Who knows. But I just wanted to point out im not just throwing out numbers from off google. Iv done my research and iv worked hands on with these motors for years too. Even though iv never took the time to measure a block lol. Im not by any means saying that what you say is wrong. I have alot of respect for your knowledge, in fact the reason i joined Marlin crawler is so i could ask YOU questions about my weber 38 because iv read alot of your posts and you know what your talking about @79coyotefrg. Now i will admit i do get into a little bit of a fantasy world when it comes to building motors and tend to go over board lol. this guy really could just throw a basic intake and head off a 20r onto the right 22r block and go but where's the fun in that haha.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #17 on:** Dec 03, 2012, 09:26:38 PM »

Quote from: 22rMudToy on Dec 03, 2012, 06:59:29 PM

Well im never one to argue cause i know im not always right but i got the block height numbers from LCE themselves and anyone who has worked on an R series motor will agree LCE knows there toyota motors. Maybe they measured from a different spot on the block than wherever you got your numbers from. Who knows. But I just wanted to point out im not just throwing out numbers from off google. Iv done my research and iv worked hands on with these motors for years too. Even though iv never took the time to measure a block lol. Im not by any means saying that what you say is wrong. I have alot of respect for your knowledge, in fact the reason i joined Marlin crawler is so i could ask YOU questions about my weber 38 because iv read alot of your posts and you know what your talking about @79coyotefrg. Now i will admit i do get into a little bit of a fantasy world when it comes to building motors and tend to go over board lol. this guy really could just throw a basic intake and head off a 20r onto the right 22r block and go but where's the fun in that haha.

can you give me a link to where they said that? then maybe I can explain what they were talking about.

SloCrawler · « **Reply #18 on:** Dec 04, 2012, 06:51:57 AM »

watching this one.

22rMudToy · « **Reply #19 on:** Dec 04, 2012, 09:24:04 AM »

I got it from there catalog. Ill look and see where they measured from on the deck. I rechecked the numbers they had last night after my last post just to make sure i wasnt remembering the wrong numbers and sure enough it said 75-80 20r and 81-84 22r had height of 9.120" and the later blocks had a height of 8.970". I might even give them a call ill be sure to get back. Id like to know where you got your numbers from too and if you have any idea of where those numbers were measured from.

22rMudToy · « **Reply #20 on:** Dec 04, 2012, 09:42:31 AM »

http://www.lcengineering.com/LCTechPages/techpages/eng17.html acutally according to LCE you CAN use a "laser block" (what they called the later model blocks) to build a hybrid but as you can see, you have to mill the head just like i thought earlier when i corrected myself. Ill keep researching and get back

22rMudToy · « **Reply #21 on:** Dec 04, 2012, 09:47:53 AM »

@79coyotefrg it looks like we were both right on measurements but just like i thought, they were from different spots. Here's a link like you requested http://www.lcengineering.com/LCTechPages/techpages/eng4.html

enc121 · « **Reply #22 on:** Jun 22, 2014, 03:11:50 PM »

I'm not super savvy, but I would like to do this right. My 1976 Toyota Chinook's 20r gave out, and I'm having trouble finding a replacement. 22r's (pre '85) seem to be a lot more affordable, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around exactly what modifications would need to happen for the swap. I'm not confident enough in the cylinder head to play with the hybrid. My first dumb question is: can I use the 20r carb with the 22r engine or is an adapter enough? And I know I need an intake adapter, right? If someone could clear this up for me I'd be infinitely grateful. -emily

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #23 on:** Jun 22, 2014, 05:03:42 PM »

Quote from: enc121 on Jun 22, 2014, 03:11:50 PM

I'm not super savvy, but I would like to do this right. My 1976 Toyota Chinook's 20r gave out, and I'm having trouble finding a replacement. 22r's (pre '85) seem to be a lot more affordable, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around exactly what modifications would need to happen for the swap. I'm not confident enough in the cylinder head to play with the hybrid. My first dumb question is: can I use the 20r carb with the 22r engine or is an adapter enough? And I know I need an intake adapter, right? If someone could clear this up for me I'd be infinitely grateful. -emily

my first question is where are you?? and do you know what your chinook weighs??

yes, you need a 22R from a late 80 to August of 84 22R, I would highly suggest having the 20R head cleaned and checked out because a stock 20R head simply flows much better.

no, you do NOT want to use the 20R carb. it is only a 190cfm carb, you want to use a 22R stock carb or a weber 3236 which are both in the 300-325 cfm range.

the only dumb question is the one you dont ask

yotacorps81 · « **Reply #24 on:** Jul 04, 2014, 04:11:53 PM »

Thank you all for the large amount of information! I am sorry it has taken me so long to update this thread, but after two deployments and not much time on my hands, I traded the 81 Toyota and sold the other motor I had. Now I have a 1980 with a 4in suspension lift, W56 trans and no motor. I was however able to get ahold of a 2RZ from a 95 Tacoma that needs a set of rings and upon my return from my current deployment, will be rebuilding the motor and putting it into my truck!

Erick561 · « **Reply #25 on:** Jul 04, 2014, 09:12:59 PM »

Quote from: yotacorps81 on Jul 04, 2014, 04:11:53 PM

Thank you all for the large amount of information! I am sorry it has taken me so long to update this thread, but after two deployments and not much time on my hands, I traded the 81 Toyota and sold the other motor I had. Now I have a 1980 with a 4in suspension lift, W56 trans and no motor. I was however able to get ahold of a 2RZ from a 95 Tacoma that needs a set of rings and upon my return from my current deployment, will be rebuilding the motor and putting it into my truck!

When you take the RZ head off, do not turn the head upside down don't remove the lifters they are not adjustable leave it be or else!

You'll need a w59 bellhousing now

yotacorps81 · « **Reply #26 on:** Jul 08, 2014, 11:41:14 AM »

Quote from: Erick561 on Jul 04, 2014, 09:12:59 PM

When you take the RZ head off, do not turn the head upside down don't remove the lifters they are not adjustable leave it be or else!

You'll need a w59 bellhousing now

Thank you for that tip! I have been using what little free time I have to read all the threads on the 2 and 3rz swaps and have found a lot of really good information in them as well. I'm very excited to get this truck up and running!

Nation · « **Reply #27 on:** Jul 08, 2014, 01:34:09 PM »

NICE!

Erick561 · « **Reply #28 on:** Jul 10, 2014, 03:54:39 AM »

i have a w59 plate for sale

Nation · « **Reply #29 on:** Jul 11, 2014, 10:32:34 AM »

ooooh. I need me one of them..

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