Author Topic: Welding advice (Read 5800 times)

Suprarunner · « **on:** Jan 10, 2005, 03:32:50 PM »

All my welds were looking good, till this weekend.... I built the new cross member under the truck to hold the 4 link and long story short I just can't weld worth a poop upside down (under the truck)!!!!! Help me out guy's, is the angle of my tip just prolly off or do I need to adjust the welder a little when underneath? If so do I need to turn the wire speed down? That's kinda what it's feeling like.

brainlessfool · « **Reply #1 on:** Jan 10, 2005, 04:03:31 PM »

you do it the same way ya get to brodaway, practice practice practice! sorry, that's it.

you mite try turing the speed down, not up.

reklund5 · « **Reply #2 on:** Jan 10, 2005, 07:32:37 PM »

I agree- increase your wire speed a little. I've always hated welding upside down. Watch out for falling welding boogers- they're HOT. I burnt the leg off a brand new pair of Carhartts once that way...not to mention all the hair on my left leg

I recently read about a dude who burned his whole garage down that way- a hot ball of steel rolled over to a plastic jug of paint thinner and KA-BOOM! Just be careful- I always seem to throw more hot embers when I weld upside down...

Ryan

kneedownnate · « **Reply #3 on:** Jan 10, 2005, 07:58:10 PM »

Wanna weld upside down? Get a decent stick welder! I assume you're mig welding with argon? When I've tried welding upside down with argon it seems to fall away, but that's probably inexperience. I usually just grab the stick and go to town, Nate

brainlessfool · « **Reply #4 on:** Jan 10, 2005, 08:31:31 PM »

the falling stuff is just why I said turn the speed down. you can always make so more passes butt that falling stuff is the pits.

kyle_22r · « **Reply #5 on:** Jan 10, 2005, 10:35:37 PM »

i agree, break out the 7018

kneedownnate · « **Reply #6 on:** Jan 10, 2005, 11:13:12 PM »

mmmmm, now that's pretty...................

86yota · « **Reply #7 on:** Jan 12, 2005, 08:42:13 PM »

Nate is right. You need to be using a stick with a fast freeze electrode. 7018 is an excelent rod especially in something that will have to flex alot like a crossmember or a lincoln locker, but ive not had much luck welding overhead with it. I like to use good ole 6011 for this.

kneedownnate · « **Reply #8 on:** Jan 12, 2005, 10:12:18 PM »

I think you're right kyle. The way it was always explained to me by the old timers was; if you wanna get a really strong weld you use 6011, but if you hafta weld upside down and still have it be strong you use 6013, and if you wanna cover either with a "pretty" weld you run a bead over it with 7018. I used to work with a guy who was a welders helper in the oil fields, and he said the welder would do several welds with 6011 and the last pass was 7018 so it looked good. I've heard about 7018 being more flexable too, Nate

red · « **Reply #9 on:** Jan 14, 2005, 08:12:50 PM »

if your weld keeps breaking turn ur heat up a little bit, whether ur gonna use a wire fed or a stick. the more heat the more penetration u'll get, so the stronger it is.

Weldo · « **Reply #10 on:** Jan 21, 2005, 07:10:56 PM »

Welding out of position (anything besides flat) with MIG is a bit tricky. One of the most helpful things i learned about MIG welding is to manipulate the torch while you weld. If you're welding overhead a little Z motion back and forth as you weld can help a lot. Turn the wire speed and volts down a bit (you'll have to play with this til you find a comfortable setting) and start your weld. If you're making a Tee joint, start on the overhead piece and then move the puddle to the verticle piece. From here just keep oscillating from piece to piece as you travel along the joint. You may have to also travel a bit faster than if you were welding in the flat position. The biggest problem with welding MIG overhead is heat build-up. Heat builds up, the puddle gets too big, and gravity does the rest. So a few ways to reduce heat build up are:

1) Try playing with heat settings, mainly lower than if you were welding flat.
2) Try a little weaving or oscillating movement, this will help the puddle build up, cool, and solidify as you weld.
Weaving is a good way to carry a small, controlable puddle, yet still get a good, strong, adequately sized weld.
3) You might even try "pushing" the puddle as you weld as opposed to dragging, which is more common.
When you push the puddle (aim the gun in the direction you're welding) you do get less penetration,
but there is less heat build-up because the heat of the arc is pointed forward, instead of pointing back toward
the completed weld, adding more and more heat. This is why pushing is typical when welding thin sheet, like
1/8 or less.
4) Practice practice. Thats the key. Just keep trying and playing with settings and techniques til you get
comfortable. Practice on some scrap metal til you're confident enough to do a good job on your truck.

Good Luck, and happy welding!

kneedownnate · « **Reply #11 on:** Jan 21, 2005, 07:38:17 PM »

Quote from: red on Jan 14, 2005, 08:12:50 PM

if your weld keeps breaking turn ur heat up a little bit, whether ur gonna use a wire fed or a stick. the more heat the more penetration u'll get, so the stronger it is.

Yea, that'll work if you're welding 1/4" or bigger but on the thinner stuff it'll cause you to blow holes in the metal, making a bigger problem than you had before. There are "ideal" settings for different thickness's and types of metal, and you can go a little either way but hafta find the sweet spot to get proper penetration and an asthetically pleasing weld. What we were really discussing is which is the proper rod to use in a given situation, such as overhead welding, not necessarily a weld breaking. Nate

dirtyskivies · « **Reply #12 on:** Jan 21, 2005, 09:19:02 PM »

Quote from: kneedownnate on Jan 21, 2005, 07:38:17 PM

Quote from: red on Jan 14, 2005, 08:12:50 PM
if your weld keeps breaking turn ur heat up a little bit, whether ur gonna use a wire fed or a stick. the more heat the more penetration u'll get, so the stronger it is.

What we were really discussing is which is the proper rod to use in a given situation, such as overhead welding, not necessarily a weld breaking. Nate

speaking of the 'proper' rod. you suggested 6013 which isnt good for anything but a downhand sheetmetal weld. it shouldnt be used on anything requiring structural integrity, such as spring hangers, link crossmembers, tube work...

kneedownnate · « **Reply #13 on:** Jan 21, 2005, 09:44:22 PM »

Quote from: dirtyskivies on Jan 21, 2005, 09:19:02 PM

Quote from: kneedownnate on Jan 21, 2005, 07:38:17 PM
Quote from: red on Jan 14, 2005, 08:12:50 PM
if your weld keeps breaking turn ur heat up a little bit, whether ur gonna use a wire fed or a stick. the more heat the more penetration u'll get, so the stronger it is.

What we were really discussing is which is the proper rod to use in a given situation, such as overhead welding, not necessarily a weld breaking. Nate

speaking of the 'proper' rod. you suggested 6013 which isnt good for anything but a downhand sheetmetal weld. it shouldnt be used on anything requiring structural integrity, such as spring hangers, link crossmembers, tube work...

Ok cool, but please explain what a "downhand sheetmetal weld" is. What would be the proper rod for welding overhead when it needs to be strong? Like I said before, this is just how it's been explained to me by the old farts. I may have gotten the rods screwed up, but is 6013 gonna be a stronger weld than 7018? Am I still right about 7018 being more of a cover weld than structural? I'm pretty confident that 6011 is strong as my first welds were with it and the factory welds broke whiel mine held up. I can weld better than the facts I know, if that statement makes any sense. I just welded with flux core for the first time the other day and it's not as pretty as solid/argon, but I was actually impressed with how good it looked, and I tried to break it and it wouldn't budge so I felt ok about it, although the application didn't need to be terribly strong. Also, how the hell do you quote on one sentence instead of the whole post? Nate

Weldo · « **Reply #14 on:** Jan 22, 2005, 06:47:03 AM »

A downhand weld is a weld made in the flat poistion. That is, the rod pointed down, like you were welding a piece on a table. To stick weld overhead, you can use an E7018, it is possible. An E6011 or E6010 may be easier to weld with because these are fast freeze rods. That basically means the weld puddle freezes almost instantly when you move the arc, so it solidifies right behind you as you weld, not allowing the puddle to sag and drip. A 7018 will be stronger than a 6010 or 6011. The first 2 digits of electrode identifications indicate the tensile strength or the completed weld in 10,000s of psi. So a 7018 has a tensile strength of 70,000 psi, and a 6010 has a tensile stregth of 60,000 psi. But since your average carbon steel has a tensile of only around 32,000 psi, any rod you choose to weld with should be more than strong enough. As long as the weld is good, the surrounding metal should fail before the weld does. That said, I'd probably choose E6010 or 6011 since it is a bit easier to weld with overhead. Also 6010 or 11 can better cut through paint and rust, making a great choice for dirty metal, while 7018 would require you to clean the area to be welded with a wire brush or grinder or something. As for flux-core, it is a little messier than MIG with solid wire, but it is capable of making very strong welds. Most flux-core wires have a tensile strength of 70,000 psi. Flux-core is extensively used in the structural steel fabrication industry. I actually think that welding out of position (anyhting besides flat) with flux-core is easier than with MIG.

dirtyskivies · « **Reply #15 on:** Jan 22, 2005, 08:10:08 AM »

a downhand weld is verticle down.

7018 rod is(was) used in structural steel welding, but is quickly being replaced by flux core wire with a co2 backing. a 6011 or 6010 rod is used for a fast freeze deep penetrating weld. great for a root pass, its a more brittle weld than the 7018 rod, which is good for the cover pass(or the entire weld). the 7018 weld can tolerate more elastic deformation before fracture. the 7018 rod is low hydrogen and needs to be kept sealed up and dry. 7014 would be a better choice for us guys fabbing out in the garage/driveway with esposure to the elements and weather.

the 7018 rod isnt any harder to actually weld overhead than the 6011/6010, its the thicker coating being melted off thats burning up your arms, neck, belly more... notice how the 7018 rod requires more amps to burn than the 6010/6011 of the same thickness. it requires more to burn the thicker coating...

6013 is a medium penetrating rod, not ideal for structural parts, like spring hangers, link mounts, crossmembers....

kyle_22r · « **Reply #16 on:** Jan 22, 2005, 03:30:15 PM »

i actually think welding overhead with 7018 is easier than vertical, when it comes to technique. the hard part is keeping steady since generally your arms will be above your head and you don't have anything to support them(i lock my elbows against my chest when doing vert/flat work when stick welding)

as has been said, only a hillbilly would do structural fab work with 6013. it doesn't penetrate well and isn't very strong anyway. even 6010/6011 is a better choice, since it at least has excellent penetration, and it's great for quick fixes on the trail(if you have a welder) since it welds fine in dirty conditions. 7018 is a good shop electrode, since you need an oven to keep it hot, but it's very strong, good penetratiing and good looking. as for 7014, it's a good rod if you only have an AC welder or don't want to keep 7018 hot. it has moderate penetration and is strong, gives a good looking bead.

people have been saying stick welding is a thing of the past for 50 years. until flux core boxes with at least a 70% duty cycle come down to $200 it's not going anywhere. sure, it might not be as popular in shops with all the accessories or bigger construction sites, but it's still the best choice in more remote places(got a friend who works on rock crushers, that's all they use)

yotaboy79 · « **Reply #17 on:** Jan 24, 2005, 06:31:16 PM »

every one has different ways of welding that work for them every one welds a little different and my best advise is keep practicing with different methods, heats, rods.................... ect... untell you find what works best for you every one is a little different. have fun and keep practicing

$Beer Chug\'n$

lockedyota · « **Reply #18 on:** Jan 28, 2005, 08:28:03 AM »

everything weldo said is true, the 6011 is gonna be your best choice of rod. welding overhead takes some practice i've welded with guys on the pipeline that have been welding for years and some still have alot of trouble. the best advise i can give is practise on something other than what your working on. until you find that right amperage (the sweet spot) and remember what it is for future use. another big thing is being comfortable when welding overhead. get yourself a pipeliner helmet. they are rounded all the way around and provide the best protection from splatter. speaking of splatter get yourself a welding beanie with a bill wear it sideways on your head covering your ear thats up to keep the splatter out of it(man, it really hurts). get your self something leather to wear and some good welding gloves. if your totally protected and can't get burned its alot easier to pay attention and watch what your doing.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #19 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 08:29:27 AM »

6011 for anything thats been painted or rusty and trail repairs, 6010 for overhead , 7014 in the shop (using fresh unpainted steel), 6013 body repairs 7018 is highly over rated in my opinion, your local monkey from the zoo can weld with a 7018 if its HOT enough

kyle_22r · « **Reply #20 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 11:10:36 AM »

if you have a DC welder and you have a choice of rods, use 7018. it penetrates better than 7014 and isn't worthless crap like 6013

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #21 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 01:36:55 PM »

6013 is only a surface rod, for like stitching up body panels. low heat

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #22 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 01:38:44 PM »

my personal fav for all around is the 6011, just stick it up there and weld, rust, paint, dead deer no problemo

Prismo · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 01:57:03 PM »

Roll the truck over before you weld, then you won't have to weld upside down. Jeeez, it's so simple.

To The Floor · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 02:42:57 PM »

just bend up an exterior cage (no upside down welding) then lay it on it's top and follow through with prismos plan

KYOTA · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 03:17:46 PM »

Quote from: Glen on Jan 30, 2005, 01:38:44 PM

my personal fav for all around is the 6011, just stick it up there and weld, rust, paint, dead deer no problemo

5P+++++ and it smells good too !!

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #26 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 03:36:31 PM »

toymachine · « **Reply #27 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 06:00:23 PM »

I have had always had problems welding MIG upside down too. The best way I have found (someone allready mentioned it) ...point towards the direction of the weld, and try a oscilating type of motion.

With welding rod....i personaly like 6011. It burns real hot and penetrates deeply. I have always used it on straight polarity (i think that is DC negative right?) This is straight polarity. Though after looking it up, i guess you are supposed to use it in reverse polarity like 7018. Anyway, a thing to remember. In straight polarity, the electrode is negative, so the current passes from the rod to the workpiece. This causes more of the energy to be transferred into the workpiece, transferring more heat, and giving deeper penetration, along with thinner (width) beads. Reverse polarity causes the current to flow from the negative, through the workpiece and up the rod. This transfers more heat to the rod, and consumes it quicker. It causes less deep penetration and wider beads.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Oh, if you are on the trail, and you break something and decide to weld it back up by hooking batteries in series and using jumper cables as leads, then i think you could just switch between straight and reverse polarity by switching which cable you ground with. This is how old machines worked, if i remeber correctly.

yotaboy79 · « **Reply #28 on:** Jan 30, 2005, 08:39:01 PM »

oh on a side note i just got back from the er (getting a metal shaving out of my eye)

it kinda hurts lol so watch your eyes

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #29 on:** Jan 31, 2005, 06:43:30 AM »

dude, you gotta be careful with them thar eyeballs,

i was mowing the grass one day and a rock got kicked up, hit the front tire and bounced off

and hit me in the eye

becarefull out there

86yota

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