Author Topic: Building the 20r/22r hybrid! (Read 69973 times)

81_yota · « **Reply #30 on:** Nov 15, 2010, 07:46:16 PM »

please let me know if it does give you more power cuz i had ppl say the same thing and i have a 20r motor sittin around i would so do it if it did give more POWER!!!!

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #31 on:** Nov 18, 2010, 09:35:58 AM »

Quote from: 81_yota on Nov 15, 2010, 07:46:16 PM

please let me know if it does give you more power cuz i had ppl say the same thing and i have a 20r motor sittin around i would so do it if it did give more POWER!!!!

it gives you SIGNIFICANT power gains. anyone that says it doesnt either decked the head too much or just simply didnt know what they were doing/talking about.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #32 on:** Nov 18, 2010, 09:39:59 AM »

a perfectly stock 20R head with a stock cam on a perfectly stock 22R block will give you noticeable USABLE power gain.

if you deck the head and or block too much you can and will raise the compression too high and will either have to run racing fuel or have no gains in power due to preignition and detonation that will destroy the engine over time.

82 HiLux · « **Reply #33 on:** Nov 24, 2010, 06:23:14 PM »

ok so I got the valves all set up so they dont hit the pistons. Its crazy how you have to set the valves ONE CERTAIN WAY, or else nothing will work right. You rotate the engine two full turns and stop at TDC, set 1 valve. Turn it 2 times over again stopping at TDC, set the next valve. Turn it over 2 times again, set the next valve...and so on.

This is a superior way of setting the valve lash, compared to setting the motor to TDC and setting all the loose rocker arms...turn it over 360, and set the other loose ones. This is INCORRECT and VERY inaccurate.

Next step is dialing in my adjustabe cam gear.

The whole lower end is assembled, the head is assembled and almost ready to be bolted down. Rocker arms are *finetuned* to my specs, ill explain further down the post with pics. Timing chain, guides, rails and tensioner are installed.
I need to trim up my cranshaft scraper a litte bit.
Block is painted ford blue again.

When its done and broken in, i will take a few videos of driving it. Im 99% sure this motor is gonna be WAY more powerful than it was.
Before THIS rebuild, it had 136hp/180tq at the crankshaft. As I said before, Im expecting 150-170 hp and 180-200ft/lbs of torque. The truck is rollin on 37s with 5.29s.

the motor with head on, timing, and clay inside of it on the piston tops.

all of the rocker arm adjusting screws line up very well with the tips of the valve stems.

you can see how i used the ends of some rocker arm shaft springs as spacers to line up the rocker arms with the cam lobes, and the rocker arm adjusting screws with the tips of the valves.

81_yota · « **Reply #34 on:** Nov 24, 2010, 06:33:00 PM »

$Beer Chug\'n$ that is a beautiful thing let us know how she pulls

kneedownnate · « **Reply #35 on:** Nov 25, 2010, 01:12:18 AM »

Quote from: 82 HiLux on Nov 24, 2010, 06:23:14 PM

Block is painted ford blue again.

They just look too good that color

Sparkplug · « **Reply #36 on:** Nov 25, 2010, 10:26:12 AM »

Care to elaborate on why the way the fsm calls to set valve specs is wrong? Not saying it isnt, but would like to know why.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #37 on:** Nov 25, 2010, 10:44:43 AM »

Quote from: 82 HiLux on Nov 24, 2010, 06:23:14 PM

ok so I got the valves all set up so they dont hit the pistons. Its crazy how you have to set the valves ONE CERTAIN WAY, or else nothing will work right. You rotate the engine two full turns and stop at TDC, set 1 valve. Turn it 2 times over again stopping at TDC, set the next valve. Turn it over 2 times again, set the next valve...and so on.

This is a superior way of setting the valve lash, compared to setting the motor to TDC and setting all the loose rocker arms...turn it over 360, and set the other loose ones. This is INCORRECT and VERY inaccurate.

Next step is dialing in my adjustabe cam gear.

I've always started with #1 on TDC adjusted the loose rockers, rolled it 360* and adjusted the rest, then rolled it 90* and checked till all were perfect.

Quote

..........

all of the rocker arm adjusting screws line up very well with the tips of the valve stems.

you can see how i used the ends of some rocker arm shaft springs as spacers to line up the rocker arms with the cam lobes, and the rocker arm adjusting screws with the tips of the valves.

thats what those spacers are for, those little Japanese engineers figured that out many moons ago

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #38 on:** Nov 25, 2010, 10:48:57 AM »

Quote from: Sparkplug on Nov 25, 2010, 10:26:12 AM

Care to elaborate on why the way the fsm calls to set valve specs is wrong? Not saying it isnt, but would like to know why.

hows the FSM say to do it??

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #39 on:** Nov 25, 2010, 10:51:32 AM »

looks like it needs a .020 shim between the rocker stand and the spacer

Sparkplug · « **Reply #40 on:** Nov 25, 2010, 11:11:35 AM »

The fsm says to spin it to tdc, till front 2 are loose, do 1 and 2 intakes, 1 and 3 exhausts, spin once again to tdc, do 3 and 4 intake 2 and 4 exhuast

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #41 on:** Nov 25, 2010, 11:50:15 AM »

thats what I do more or less. just couldnt remember which ones.

bkubisht · « **Reply #42 on:** Nov 25, 2010, 04:10:05 PM »

You're not supposed to have the adjusting screw dead-center on the valve, so the valve spins a little to wear evenly, right? That looks centered to me.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #43 on:** Nov 25, 2010, 04:57:22 PM »

Quote from: bkubisht on Nov 25, 2010, 04:10:05 PM

You're not supposed to have the adjusting screw dead-center on the valve, so the valve spins a little to wear evenly, right? That looks centered to me.

I've actually never heard that.

not that its not true, Ive just never heard that.

82 HiLux · « **Reply #44 on:** Nov 30, 2010, 12:43:43 PM »

Quote from: 79coyotefrg on Nov 25, 2010, 10:51:32 AM

looks like it needs a .020 shim between the rocker stand and the spacer

the spacer is already installed in that picture. Im not talking about the thick rings from the factory. There is a space visible there BECAUSE there is a spacer installed. The original caption perfectly describes what I did.

The valve lash adjusting screw is supposed to be centered the way it is shown in that picture. IF that picture was taken from the FRONT of the motor instead of the SIDE of the motor, it wouldnt be perfectly centered. Thats because as the rocker arms OPERATE, the adjusting screws slides back and forth on the tip of the valve stems. Having the adjusting screw running on the side of valve stem tip would put you in danger of breaking the valve tip or adjusting screw. The valve does NOT ever "spin" under normal operation of the engine.

As for setting the valve lash, I USED TO set the lash by setting all the loose ones at TDC, and rotating it over 360 and setting the other 4 loose ones. I learned of the way I previously described from a legendary local machine shop.
When I was checking piston-to-valve clearance in the engine im assembling right now, all of the valves were hitting the pistons. The pistons did not clear the valves until I set the valve lash the way I described in my last posting.

"rotate the engine two full turns and stop at TDC, set 1 valve. Turn it 2 times over again stopping at TDC, set the next valve. Turn it over 2 times again, set the next valve...and so on."

Setting the valves lash the FSM way gives you a rough estimate of a correct setting. Im not sure how to describe how this method works so well, but I think it has to do with the fact that when you rotate the engine over, it makes everything work and spin and seat properly. It seriously gives you a different result.
TRY IT BEFORE YOU GET ALL SKEPTICAL.

disclaimer: everything that I say and describe has been learned from LOTS and LOTS of experience, and first hand results and mistakes. Ive been doing this for a long ass time.

82 HiLux · « **Reply #45 on:** Nov 30, 2010, 12:46:26 PM »

I picked up an intake manifold off of a old Toyota Corona. Its lacking some coolant passages that my cylinder head has.

Is the correct manifold off of a old truck?

Yota87Truck · « **Reply #46 on:** Nov 30, 2010, 05:39:52 PM »

can't wait to see how the power is

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #47 on:** Dec 01, 2010, 12:20:41 PM »

Quote from: 82 HiLux on Nov 30, 2010, 12:46:26 PM

I picked up an intake manifold off of a old Toyota Corona. Its lacking some coolant passages that my cylinder head has.

Is the correct manifold off of a old truck?

that depends who this comment was directed to

Quote

TRY IT BEFORE YOU GET ALL SKEPTICAL.

disclaimer: everything that I say and describe has been learned from LOTS and LOTS of experience, and first hand results and mistakes. Ive been doing this for a long ass time.

kneedownnate · « **Reply #48 on:** Dec 01, 2010, 10:06:15 PM »

Sounds like you maybe got an 18r/8r intake?

wakkjobb · « **Reply #49 on:** Dec 02, 2010, 09:41:19 PM »

Oh, how have I missed this most magical of threads?

I will be joining the ranks of hybrid engine rigs soon; my 84-ish 22R tossed a crank bearing and I scored a complete 20R for free and have been thinking about this build for quite a while.
This is the technical info I have been looking for! I don't want to overbore the block (will lose compression, right?), deck the head a bunch (just make it flush again), use the wrong valves or anything else wrong. I have my evil plan posted in my build but basically I'm planning on:
20R head, cleaned up, ported, engnbldr O/S valves ($58/set), find a way to replace that plate at the back of the head since I don't believe in EGR/emissions
22R block, hopefully just honed (slight bore if needed), regrind crank due to bad bearing, double row timing
port intake as described above, 22R carb ('cause I already got one), new oil/water pumps and steel timing guides, engnbldr master rebuild kit and his 261 crawler cam 'cause that's what seems to be working for people.

If anything is screwy, please let me know... I am totally open to suggestions etc.
>>Dan

Yopar · « **Reply #50 on:** Dec 31, 2010, 03:03:46 PM »

Quote from: wakkjobb on Dec 02, 2010, 09:41:19 PM

Oh, how have I missed this most magical of threads?
I will be joining the ranks of hybrid engine rigs soon; my 84-ish 22R tossed a crank bearing and I scored a complete 20R for free and have been thinking about this build for quite a while.
This is the technical info I have been looking for! I don't want to overbore the block (will lose compression, right?), deck the head a bunch (just make it flush again), use the wrong valves or anything else wrong. I have my evil plan posted in my build but basically I'm planning on:
20R head, cleaned up, ported, engnbldr O/S valves ($58/set), find a way to replace that plate at the back of the head since I don't believe in EGR/emissions
22R block, hopefully just honed (slight bore if needed), regrind crank due to bad bearing, double row timing
port intake as described above, 22R carb ('cause I already got one), new oil/water pumps and steel timing guides, engnbldr master rebuild kit and his 261 crawler cam 'cause that's what seems to be working for people.

If anything is screwy, please let me know... I am totally open to suggestions etc.
>>Dan

Remember that over boring will actually raise compression, because you are increasing the relation of the bore size to the compression chamber, which is staying the same. Just bore as much is needed to make a round hole. Decking the head/block should be minimal so you don't have problems with the timing chain length. Make sure you know about the early/late blocks (-84+) which have different deck heights. Someone else can chime in about this, as I am just getting into the early engines now that I have an '83 and am green on details.

I run the 261c in a 22RE and it's nice, but I would definitely go bigger cam in a carb'd 22R. LCE and Comp make some nice grinds. Good luck, I hope we didn't hijack this thread too bad.

diggo · « **Reply #51 on:** Jan 27, 2011, 07:27:53 PM »

I have the exact set up you have built. I just haven't taken it to the machine shop yet. Have you put it in yet? I want to hear how it turns out!

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #52 on:** Jan 27, 2011, 08:07:02 PM »

Quote from: wakkjobb on Dec 02, 2010, 09:41:19 PM

Oh, how have I missed this most magical of threads?
I will be joining the ranks of hybrid engine rigs soon; my 84-ish 22R tossed a crank bearing and I scored a complete 20R for free and have been thinking about this build for quite a while.
This is the technical info I have been looking for! I don't want to overbore the block (will lose compression, right?), deck the head a bunch (just make it flush again), use the wrong valves or anything else wrong.

boring over .040 inch leaves very little sealing surface for the headgasket and leaves only expensive options for pistons as .040 is the largest most shops/parts houses can easily source

Quote

I have my evil plan posted in my build but basically I'm planning on:
20R head, cleaned up, ported, engnbldr O/S valves ($58/set), find a way to replace that plate at the back of the head since I don't believe in EGR/emissions
22R block, hopefully just honed (slight bore if needed), regrind crank due to bad bearing, double row timing
port intake as described above, 22R carb ('cause I already got one), new oil/water pumps and steel timing guides, engnbldr master rebuild kit and his 261 crawler cam 'cause that's what seems to be working for people.

If anything is screwy, please let me know... I am totally open to suggestions etc.
>>Dan

dont worry about that thing on the back of the head just block off the egr port on the side of the head behind the intake and between the carb and valve cover on the intake.

WHITE_TRASH · « **Reply #53 on:** Jan 30, 2011, 10:17:04 AM »

I actually picked up a 20/22r in a trade awhile back and stuck it in my 78 street truck. It was fun till something came apart inside. I picked up another 22r bottom end to rebuild and i'll toss that 20r head back on with oversized valves, double springs, new rockers and a 292 cam from delta cams. Should be fun and cheap, the engine came with a 45DCOE sidedraft a 4 to 1 header and a full MSD ignition too. Eventually the truck will get a 3rz but for now I'm keeping everything old school.

I can understand why people build these hybrid engines now. What a hoot that little truck was even with a sissylala 252 comp cam.

kneedownnate · « **Reply #54 on:** Jan 30, 2011, 12:03:57 PM »

$Beer Chug\'n$ the original I built ran so strong with all stock toy stuff. I've wanted to build one proper like that to see how much potential you could pull out. I can never remember the specs, but I have an old school Mikuni cam in mine now and it pulls pretty nice from mid range up, but my tires are too big for my gears so I'm not seeing full potential.

A street truck is where I think one would really shine too. 400 lbs lighter in stock form, better gearing to weight ratio, everything just responds better to the small mods. My old 81 with the stock 22r ran like a raped ape but ran out of steam around 5,000 rpm, so I can only imagine how hard it would run with a proper hybrid!

WHITE_TRASH · « **Reply #55 on:** Jan 30, 2011, 03:26:08 PM »

Werd... My 78 weighs 2690 with a full tank, my crossbed tool box with tools and whatnot and my dog in it. It's going to get GUTTED. Bedfloor and wheel wells are going away and the inner fenderwells up front are getting ripped out. I'm aiming at 2500 with me in it and all the brakes etc upgraded and it'll be caged. Gonna get full on old school stupid on this one.

SloCrawler · « **Reply #56 on:** Jan 30, 2011, 05:38:20 PM »

Have any of you ran propain on one of these hybrids? Thats my original plans for the parts I got gathering. Didn't know if anything had to be done out of the normal.

81_yota · « **Reply #57 on:** Jan 30, 2011, 05:41:10 PM »

i have seen gus running pain on hybrids

wakkjobb · « **Reply #58 on:** Jan 30, 2011, 05:51:03 PM »

How about boosting these; are there any blow-through carbs out there? I have a CT20 laying around that wants to do something besides collect dust.

79coyotefrg · « **Reply #59 on:** Jan 30, 2011, 06:14:33 PM »

Quote from: wakkjobb on Jan 30, 2011, 05:51:03 PM

How about boosting these; are there any blow-through carbs out there? I have a CT20 laying around that wants to do something besides collect dust.

you can run a supercharger but the turbo would push the fuel back out the carb I think.

I might could be persuaded to sell a dual side draft set up Ive been hanging on to.

dual weber 45's i think on a 20R intake. the rear carb caught on fire but i think new choke bodies would fix it up

82 HiLux [OP]

82 HiLux [OP]

82 HiLux [OP]

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