Topic: yota axles or 44 front hi pinion 60 rear

[gotrocks]

I have some tech questions for all of ya.  Here's my delema I am building a 90 ex cab and through its build-up my yota engine went from just putting in a timing chain to a chev. 350 engine swap wiht 350 tranny and yota cases.  Here is what I am stuck with.  I can't decided whether or not to use my yota axles and go with the new longfield super axles (supposadly as strong as dana 60 front) or to use my Danatrac axels that I had on a Jeep Wrangler.  The danatracs have arb's with discs front and rear Chevy calipers and 5.13's.  Here's where it gets frustrating those axles have 5 on 5.5 bolt patern and the front pumkin is on the drivers side.  The front has 30 spline inners and outers and the rear has 35 spline.  I want to have 6 lug wheels because I sold all of my 5's and I have 3 sets of 6 lug wheels and tires.  I could either put a atlas case behind my tranny (don't know if I'd need an adapter yet.  Or use my dual cases and convert everything over on the dynatracs for them to work. 

ANY IDEAS

[WHITE_TRASH]

Id build the yotas for the 90.  And the front should have 35 spline inners beings thats factory unless its an ancient axle.

[gotrocks [OP]]

are the yotas going to be able to handle the power from the v8 because its est. power is 300 plus horse. I'm worried about the birfields and how strong they'd be if I'd start to hop getting up something.  This rig is going to be pretty much a off road only rig (maybe ocasional street use if the pigs don't bother me to much they seem to hate me here in washington.  Been pulled over 9 times in 2 years.)

[freds40]

All depends on the cash you have to spend. If you can afford it, I'd say build for strength behind the drivetrain. I'd say run the 44/60. You should be able to convert the 44 to 6 lug for about $150 -250 with junkyard parts. For the 60, you just need to re-drill the hubs and rotors/drums. As far as the fronts orientation, you have 2 options. You could run a Toy reduction box/OTT adapter/Atlas or a flipped Dana 300. The cheaper option is probably going to be to have the axle retubed to a passenger side drop, I would think $700-$1000 from a reputable shop.

One other option, if you have the cash to spend is to build a 60 for the front. This way you wouldn't have much worry about front axle breakage. The 44 really isn't stronger than the Toy axle, your main benefit of it is the width and the turning radius.

One side note to your previous reply. In a straight line, the stock Toy Birfields are actually stronger than stock 44 u-joints, it's when you turn that the u-joint is a little stronger.

[Hyena]

Sell both sets of axles and build some 60's front and rear.

[gotrocks [OP]]

if I went 60's front and rear should I go full width? and also what about clearence wise? the yotas have so much clearance, and my rear is already a high pinion.  I'm not saying I'm stuck to one way or another I'm just trying to brainstorm and see what ideas some of you guys might have as well.  I'd really like to maintain my dual cases since I've heard they are suppose to be able to handle that much horsepower and abuse.

[Mountain Yoat]

Stick with the Yota and put the new 300M Longfields and inners I'd really like to know if they are indeed stronger Serious I think sticking with the yota stuff will keep it simplier. The wide track rear and I know a guy who extended the front Toy axle 1.5" at both bells with new inners to match I wonder if I can get those in 300M

[TOYJOETA]

I am going threw the same delema, i want to install a 7-mgte and build it to 400-500hp, so i want an axle that can handle that kind of power, So far from what I have read in the past people running this set up end up breaking a ring and pinion set or a carrier not the axle shafts them selves, so do you think a v-6 and a high pinion would be up to the task of that much power? because I think with chromo longs and front range's full floater kit I would be ok axle shaft wise.  Also is it worth it to go full width? I know it looks cool and gives you more flex, but the whole point of a toyota is it size and wieght.

[gotrocks [OP]]

well the reason I've thought about full width is because I was reading someone elses post about how they just broke the new longfields and they said they were fed up with breaking axles.  see the only part that I've thought about breaking and probably the most common weak linnk in the toyota axles is the birfields.  I have heard of people breaking the ring and pinions on the toy axles but I wonder what ring and pinions are the strongest for the toy axles.  Anyone have any info on this.

[gotrocks [OP]]

are d44's ring and pinions any stronger?

[rockbuggy37]

im in the same boat (needing axles) i want to build 2002 tacoma 4 door, supercharged 6cyl 290hp , marlin crawler case,
and 37" tires, use a coil over shock 4 corners, and 4 link suspention,
 but be street legal and stock width.
i have read a couple posts abought week rear axle housings on the new toy bending by spring hanger.
 im thinking d60 but to get them shortend and r&p set up is a lot, a quote from rockcrusher d60 was 12,000.00 pair with the crane kingpin style nuckles.
so im back to gusseting the rear, and looking at allprooffroad  hybrid 85 toy axle with f450 hubs.
and realy wanting d60's

[rockbuggy37]

usa 6x6 sells ford 9" (portal type)with hummer gear reduction hubs mounted on , makes 4" of lift on the pumpkin, but there is no manule hub discontect   ( like toyota locking hubs) so in 2wd the front end still turns and the bearing friction drags a little (no way to free wheel)
 might be good in an off road only truck.
photo   http://www.usa6x6.com/hummer9%20front.jpg
home page   http://www.usa6x6.com/6x6conversions/6x6axles/

[ETO]

 got rocks   I dont think that high pinion in the rear has a chance of living with over 300 HP the high pinion is weaker that the standard third member when run in the rear of a truck since it is running on the coast side of the ring gear instead of the drive side like it does in the front. And it is going to be very hard to keep axles in the front with that much power if you dont just pamper it and then what is the use of having that much power. I would say get a 60 front and cut down the long side to match your yota rear and have a new inner axle made. Toyjoeta There is know way you are going to get a Yota axle to hold up to 400 or 500 HP you can break 60s with that kind of power on tap.

[jr9162]

If you're looking for economy and simplicity stay with a FJ80 hi pinion diff up front and a V6 4 pinion diff in the rear.

If money isn't much of an object, have Currie build you a Ford 9" rear and a Ford 9" hi-pinion with reverse cut gears on the front. You can specify what width and decide to run closed knuckle (birfield or u-joint) or open knuckle on front. If open knuckle, use the Chevy Dana 44 knuckles, hubs, brakes. Easy to have the rear brakes on the Ford 9" drilled for Chevy/Yota pattern, drum or disk...

The Ford 9" diff is stronger than the Dana 70, it just doesn't come in a full floater design, which is preffered. Maybe Currie could weld you some Dana 60 spindles on the housing and you'd have a full floater 9" rear axle. My    

[gotrocks [OP]]

eto your telling me that my hi pinion 60 with cromoly 35 spline arb'd 60 won't be able to handle that kind of power??? wow that's not what others have told me but I'im always up for advice on this one.  Also the idea that I'm starting to lean more towards right now is redrill those rears for the yota patern and put a d44 up front with warn shafts and ctm u joints.  I've een told that those are stronger that stock 60s tehh housing is the only thing that they arent' as strong with.  I could then sell my dynatrac 44 front that I've got and rebuild a wagoneer 44 that I've got access to.  Just get new spindles with flat top steering arms and use warn hubs and chev. callipers with roters.

How does that sound???

[jr9162]

There's nothing wrong with a Dana 60 axle. Didn't mean that at all. It's just that the Ford 9 inch is a stronger all around diff. Some believe it's stronger than a Dana 70. Especially with 4.56:1 gears. See http://www.truehi9.com/ and http://performanceunlimited.com/illustrations/gears.html The Dana 70's advantage is large diameter axle shafts and full floating hubs. Dana 60s and 70s also weigh a lot, and don't offer that great a ground clearance. Just take a honest look at the myriad reasons hot rodders and drag racers prefer the Ford 9" diff over any others.

All I mean to say is my ultimate axle for a Yota is use either the stock 85 housing with a FJ80 hi-pinion front diff, and Dana 44 open/closed knuckles or Yota closed knuckles and birfield, or go with a Ford 9" hi-pinion front diff - with whatever knuckle you prefer on the outer side.

For the rear, a 85 (or wider 86+ housing) with the Yota V6 4 pinion diff, or choose Ford 9" hi nodular iron diff and whatever brake system you prefer. Myself, I'd put a set of Dana 60 full floater spindles on it with those hubs and my 8 lug disk brake conversion. To match, I'd use Chevy 8 lug Dana 44 knuckles and hubs up front on the hi pinion Ford 9" axle.

If you really wanted to stay light weight (remember this is unsprung weight) either the rear Yota or Ford 9" axle housing could employ the Front Range full floater kit. http://www.frontrangeoffroadfab.com/floater.htm

I'd never use a high pinion diff in the rear, because it runs on the weaker cost side of the gear set (versus the drive side) and is inadequately lubricated employed in that fashion. Almost every off roader that breaks a hi pinion (reverse cut gear set) diff did such running it on the rear axle. And the only advantage the hi-pinion Dana 44 front axle has over the 85 Yota axle with FJ80 hi pinion front diff is a better turning radius. The Dana 44 is not stronger than the 8" Yota, it may in fact be a weaker diff. The 8" Yota axle can be made (birfirelds, longfields, birfield eleminator, or Dana 44 open knuckles) just as strong as the Dana 44.

Old school engineering used king pins and closed knuckles for a reason. They're stronger and run cleaner. Open knuckles employ u-joints and for the most part ball joints. The design makes good economic sense for automotive manufacturers. Open knuckles do offer a tighter turning radius - at the expense of stressing those u joints. Take a look at all the large 4x4 trucks. Why are all of them using closed knuckles? The design is simply stronger and better protected from the elements. Cost isn't a factor when designing HD axles considering the work the truck does.

Face it, using large tires you need a stronger axle than a 'built' Dana 44 or 8" Yota can ever be. Dana 60 is good, but the Ford 9" is better.

Just my   

     

[Hyena]

For a 9 inch to be stronger then a dana 70 it has to be upgraded to at least 35 spline.  but that cost a lot of money.  I think a dana 60 would be stronger for cheaper.  The 9 inch does offer more ground clearance then the dana 60.  You could always shave the 60's front and rear.  Then you could have the same ground clearance as a dana 44 which isn't all that bad.  If you go the money you could alwasy go the best of both worlds.  You could build up a shaved high pinion dana 60 front with 35 spline.  then in the rear you could build a high pinion 9 inch with 35 spline shafts too.

[jr9162]

Hyena,

The strength issue I'm concerned with is not in the 35 spline axles and spider gears. It's in the differntial's bearing support design, and the amount of tooth engagement of the ring and pinion gears themselves. The 9" has a larger pinion gear than the Dana 70, and the pinion shaft itself is larger than the Dana 60. It has nearly double the tooth contact of the Dana 70. The 9" ring gear has a thicker toe to heel (tooth engagement) than the Dana 70, not to mention it's also thicker than the Dana 70 and Dana 60. It's more rigid, and has less gear deflection under high loads. For size and weight (not counting the Dana 70's thicker full floating 35 spline axle shafts) the 9 inch is a stronger and arguably better designed axle. Like the 8" Yota, it's very easy to change differientials in the field. Try that with any other hypoid design....

Don't get me wrong, I have a Dana 70U in a Bronco, and a Dana 80 SRW in my F250. Both running Powerlocks and 12" Chevy disc brakes. I use them because they fit, and neither required a whole lot of fabrication. It was a tremendous strength gain, considering the best bang for my bucks. The loads I move require full floating HD axles and the Ford 9" doesn't come stock with them.

If you want to exceed the Ford 9" in strength, go to a 10.50" GM (Saginaw) 14 bolt full floater, or it's progeny, the 11.50" Dodge AAM axle. But you'll pay the penalty in unspring weight, and ground clearance. That still doesn't solve the front end. IMHO the hi-pinion Ford 9" differential is stronger than a Dana 60 hi-pinion.

Again, I'd steer clear of a high pinion rear differential.

For the money, the Toyota 8" is a helluva good axle. Light in weight, and strength in a economical package.
If money wasn't an object, the strongest, best ground clearance, lighest design above it is the Ford 9". Go hi-pinion in the front, choose your knuckle/hub/brakes. Then a standard Ford (hi nodular iron) diff in the rear set up with full floating axles.

I guess it needs to be stated my argument is regarding strength of the differential, not the area the stub axle is connected to the main axle shaft. I don't have a need to run larger than 32" tires myself. If we're discussing knuckle strength/design, then it's the closed king pin knuckle.

Lastly - I drive where I know I won't destroy my equipment, and don't ask the vehicle to do things it wasn't designed to do.

Happy New Year guys.

[ETO]

got rocks I  took it that you were talking about running a high pinion Toy in the rear. But yes I think you can break even a high pinion 60 in the rear with 300+ Hp since you will be running the gear on the coast side it is weaker about the same in strength as a 44 standard rotation. The axles wont be the problem just the ring and pinion.

[gotrocks [OP]]

what do you gues think about running the new super longfields in the front with a v6 diff and just run the stock rear axles with a v6 diff??? and are the hi pinion toy gears as weak as you all say the hi pinion 60's are?  The reason I'm asking is because I talked to a guy from longfield and he said I would have no problem running their new super longs that they just came out with.  I have seen their graph that they are suppose to be as stong as 60 fronts and they have a higher twisting abilibty before they snap.  He told me that he is running a 302 in this truck and runs those in the front with stock rears and has only broken one axle shaft.  Also which locker should I use if I'm going to use the v6 thirds?  Remember this is going to see the street on occasion as well.

[jr9162]

What we're trying to say is the hi pinion is designed to be used in the front axle only. The standard (in this case v6 'low pinion') diff was designed to run optimally in the rear axle. In those applications they each are running on the drive portion (not the coast) side of the gear set, and are properly lubricated. When you run a standard diff up front and a high pinion diff in the rear, both are operated (torque is applied) on the weaker coast side of the gearset. The hi pinion isn't lubed properly running that way. Lube is not so much an issue when a standard diff is used up front as the pinion shaft and gear is down in the oil reservoir.

Beyond that, Toyota 8 inch diffs are really strong for their size and weight. Think of them as a mini 9 inch Ford.

[rockbuggy37]

i agreee with what is being said abought the high pinion it is something i have learned in the past.
if you were thinking abought the portal 9" axle remember you can run a(stronger) higher r&p gear set becouse of the gear reduction hub. if you want me to ill try to find out the ratio of the hub, or you can just ask usa 6x6.
just remember there is no front axle disconect (manual locking hub on this design)
its good to here this feed back since im looking into the same thing, as far as lug patern if you dont have tires and wheel yet, what does it mater as long as they are the same front and rear then you can by wheels to match the lug 5-6-8 patern.
in my case i can keep my stock electric lock rear axel(will need to gusset, new housings are week), and add a 85 front axle with 8" high pinion electric locker out of an fj80.   or replace both with ford9" and arb.

[jr9162]

I e-mailed USA 6x6 about making a set of 9" axles with those (looks like Dana 60) full floater hubs on the rear. They didn't want to talk to me unless I buy them set up for a tandem application. WTFO?

I'd just like to see them make some 9" rears with the full floating hubs, standard housing and nodular iron diff.

I guess they're leaving the market to Currie....

[SWAMPER]

Hey how much are the new longs running for?

[gotrocks [OP]]

http://www.toyotasuperaxles.com/  they are priced at $635 inners and outers

[rockbuggy37]

once again here is a new product and some one broke it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and he was a rep?
what abought( marlin profield eliminator) that uses a real u joint, and up grade to the ctm ujoints top notch stuff??
http://www.ctmracing.com/category.aspx?categoryID=73

[rockbuggy37]

usa 6x6 wouldn't talk to you abought the axles, thats bad public relations there.there loss!