Topic: Where to start my 1982 Project

[SeanFoster]

I have been given an '82 and my original plans were to build it to make it more capable of getting me where I need to get during hunting season; however, the more I learn about rock crawling, the more I want to get into it.  My problem is that I don't know where to begin.  One thing for sure:  I am going to go with Marlin Crawler as much as possible.  This is due to their reputation and the fact that I live in the mountains just East of Fresno, CA.

Here are my plans so far:  I am going to replace the engine with a newly rebuilt one since it's not doing so well and also just to start out with a clean platform ($1,500).  I am also going to replace the transmission with the L52HD from Marlin Crawler ($1,000).    After that, I'm not too sure where to go next.  I figure I could replace the front and rear differentials with the complete ARB kits with a gear ratio of 5.29:1 ($2,758 for both) and then I'd need the compressor, switches, and such ($300).  But then again, changing the gear ratio wouldn't be necessary until I got bigger tires and lockers wouldn't be necessary until I am ready to get serious with the off-roading/crawling.

I am new to this and I want to tackle this project in logical steps.  Should I maybe start out with an exo instead?  Welding is not my forté and I would have to borrow a welder for now (until I bought one).

My knowledge on the subject of building a crawler is limited as I just started learning a few weeks ago, but from the posts I have read, you all seem to be a very receptive and helpful crowd.

One final thing,  does anybody know how I can get into contact with one of the 4X4 clubs in the Fresno area?

[Jordan7118]

It's all kinda up to your preference and your wallet.

I'd look into getting more agressive tires, maybe in the 33 inch flavor. Then see what breaks. Upgrade those breaks. Think about maybe duals or 4.7 gears in your t-case. Learn to drive better. Upgrade what breaks. Put in a locker in the front or rear. Then put one in the opposite axle. Upgrade what breaks. Take your time. No hurries, no worries 

Good luck, mayne! 

[SeanFoster [OP]]

If I take my time, my wallet shouldn't be a limiting factor.  What I am looking to do is to make something that can go where not many people can, and not because they can't, but because it seems like a really good time to hook up with others and just go up into the mountains on trails that seem impassable.

I was thinking about 33 inch tires, but is this going to leave me wanting bigger tires or will they serve me well for a long time?
Also, what kind of brake upgrades can I make?  I'd sure like to replace the rear drum brakes with disc brakes if it's possible.

I've heard the term "duals" before but I don't know what it means.  Also, in the same vein as the tires issue, will 4.7 gears do well or should I go with 5.29?

There's a lot to be learned in the driving department for me.  I've driven full-size trucks off road before, but not to the extreme that I'd like to and nowhere near what I've seen on the internet and TV.

This is all good advice.  Thanks.

Edit:  I looked it up.  By duals, I assume you mean a dual transfer case arrangement.  Is this correct?  My guess is that this would give me a much higher gear ratio.

[Jordan7118]

If I take my time, my wallet shouldn't be a limiting factor.  What I am looking to do is to make something that can go where not many people can, and not because they can't, but because it seems like a really good time to hook up with others and just go up into the mountains on trails that seem impassable.

Uh... what? You wanna make something that goes places others can't because they don't have the vehicular means or that desire to do it? Whatever floats your boat, I guess. What's important there is that you understand what you mean 

I was thinking about 33 inch tires, but is this going to leave me wanting bigger tires or will they serve me well for a long time?
Also, what kind of brake upgrades can I make?  I'd sure like to replace the rear drum brakes with disc brakes if it's possible.

You'll always want bigger tires. I just got 38.5s and already thinking of how to make 42s fit and work  It's a matter of being happy, or mildly content with what you've got at the moment.

Brake upgrades - read around. Pirate4x4 has an awesome FAQ (frequently asked questions) section that can help you out a ton. Swap in IFS brake calipers and land cruiser rotors, upgrade to a larger master cylinder, swap in a dual-diaphragm brake booster. I'm content with drums on the rear axle at the moment. I've purchased the caliper adapters, but I haven't had time to put them in yet.

I've heard the term "duals" before but I don't know what it means.  Also, in the same vein as the tires issue, will 4.7 gears do well or should I go with 5.29?

Dual transfer cases. This gives you more gearing options for when you want to go slow. This has nothing to do with highway cruising, so you'd still need to swap out your axle ratios for at least 4.88:1s, but I'd recommend 5.29:1 gears if you plan to keep going up in tire size. For Toyotas, it's all about gearing, so the more gearing you can get (i.e. dual transfer cases, lower t-case gears, lower axle gearing) the better off you are in crawling, or going slow.

There's a lot to be learned in the driving department for me.  I've driven full-size trucks off road before, but not to the extreme that I'd like to and nowhere near what I've seen on the internet and TV.

It will come with time. Don't build so fast you can't learn to drive what you've got. That's where I went wrong, and now I have a truck that's more capable than my driving skills 

This is all good advice.  Thanks.

  That's what Marlin's forum is all about 

Edit:  I looked it up.  By duals, I assume you mean a dual transfer case arrangement.  Is this correct?  My guess is that this would give me a much higher gear ratio.

Dual transfer cases, yes.

Gear ratio, if you don't know, is your first transmission gear multiplied by your low t-case gear multiplied by your axle gearing. So for me, I have 4.3:1 first gear (turbo tranny) times 2.28:1 in my first t-case (called a crawl box) times 4.7 low in my second t-case times 5.29:1 in my axles. That gives me about 250:1, which is pretty ridiculous.

You're probably 3.9:1 times 2.28:1 times 4.10:1 which is about 37:1. This means that for every 37 turns of your engine, your tire turns once. This means that at 750 RPM, you'll travel about 20 revolutions of your tire.

In short, you want to be able to go slow. It allows you as the driver to better control what and where you're going. You can always throw it into a higher gear if need be, but the crawling is what sets you apart.

Keep your questions coming. I have a test I should be studying for... but I'm not    This is way more interesting stuff 



And    to        

[gmack192]

  it all boils down to what YOU want     This where I started  LOL     put up some pics  so we can see what ya got to start with.

[SeanFoster [OP]]

Jordan7118,
Thanks a ton.  Your guidance is greatly appreciated.

gmack192,
I'll get some pics up as soon as I can, but first I have to get it up here.  It's in Tollhouse, CA (foothills of the central Sierras) and I am about 45 miles East of Tollhouse in the mountains.  I'll be bringing it up on Wednesday or so.  Hopefully it will quit snowing.  I'll take some pictures then.

[Talon84x4]

  You've got some nice trails to work with not that far from where you live. As far as clubs there is toys 4 fun, a few memebers from the club i'm in are also memebers of that one. Check their site for more info. http://www.toys-4-fun.org/  I believe there are others but I don't know them off the top of my head.

As far as where to start I would say gearing and lockers before an exo or anything like that. To get practice driving start small, lockers get you relatively far for only being one modification so they may be good to do first. Not every mod fits every person, I suggest you wheel it a little and then you'll have a better idea of what you would like to change. 

[SeanFoster [OP]]

Would it be better to buy the transfer cases prebuilt or rebuild mine to change the gear ratio?  To go with a dual, I'd obviously need to buy another, but in keeping with the recommendations, I'll take it one step at a time.  I'm thinking along the lines of changing the 2.28 for 4.70.  Assuming my first gear is 3.9:1 (not sure what it is for the L52HD), would it be bad (or overkill) to go 3.9 x 4.7 x 4.1 on 33" tires?  This would give me 75:1 which seems like a good start.  Plus, it would pave the way for me to add the second transfer case (4.7), then change the dif to 5.29, and then the tires to 36" if I decided to go that route.  That would give me an insane 456:1.  Geez, that seems like even more overkill.  I could get 97:1 just by changing the dif from 4.1 to 5.29 and not even adding another transfer case.

Am I on the right track here?  Is this how you guys do it?  What kind of gear ratio should I be starting with?  Is the 75:1 mentioned above a good start?  Also, would I be better off with the L52HD or the G54HD?    The transmission is definitely getting replaced first thing after the engine.  It's a 4-speed (L45, I think).  At any rate, this thing was a dog when I drove it last, even on level ground, although that probably has more to do with the tired engine than it does with the long gears.

Thanks, Talon84x4.  It looks like that's the road I will be taking.  Also, I'm going to look into joining that club "toys 4 fun".  I think the best way to learn is by watching the guys who do it all the time and then trying it myself.

[Jordan7118]

I dunno about what ya wanna do. The best thing you can do IS READ OTHER BUILD THREADS. This will tell ya what people like and what they don't.

4.7:1 gears would be a great upgrade. I'd recommend that for one of your first mods. 5.29:1s is the second mod I'd recommend. Then lockers. That's me, though. Whatever you want is worthwhile.

Also, upgrading to a w-56 would be a good thing. It's a five speed, and it's much stronger than any L or G series (me thinks). Plus, it's a ton cheaper than a HD unit ($150 or so versus Marlin's $1000)

I did notice your 456:1 is not correct. I guess you multiplied your tires size in that? I dunno. Tire size has nothing to do with crawl ratio. That comes in later in how fast you actually go.

Keep your questions coming!!! 

[Duffil]

WHEEL YOUR TRUCK AS IT IS. then and only then can you truly decide for yourself how far you want to take it and what the weaknesses are, and what you might want to change/upgrade. not to mention the fact that wheeling a stock/semi-stock rig will make you a better driver.

It is very easy to get caught up looking at a bunch of cool builds and start building something you don't really need, blowing a ton of cash in the process.

[TRACKER]

i would do 5.29 for your axle gearing since you live around the mountain area . lockers front and rear
and 4.7 transfer case gear . go wheel with a group people and learn from them . as you gain more experience  you will know what to do to your truck .. when you want to go wheeling make sure you post it here so we can join you

[Steve_925]

so to start your going to get alot of different suggestions from alot of differnt people.
to me i would start with the t-case, but i would do dual 2.28(stock) cases, especially if you live near snow. having one 4.7 case is going to be too low for snow, and having 2 stock geared cases gives yo more options
second, if you are set on getting into crawling i say just do it. thats what i did.
you can start out with 33s but very quickly you will wish you had 35s or 37s. if you want a very well round truck i would go with the 5.29s, 35s, lockers, aftermarket springs, and high steer.
then you have to think about parts your going to break and beef those up. birfields to start with. when figure out the size tires you want ask around and find out what size springs you should get. most people use alot shorter lift springs than you would think. as far as brakes, some v6 calipers in the front and a fj80 master cylinder would be a very good step.

now this is all just my opinion, so just take in what everyone suggests to you and figure out whats best for you.

[SeanFoster [OP]]

Jordan7118,
Wow, I didn't even know about the W-56.  I'm glad you mentioned it.  I'll see if I can locate one.  About the 456:1, I had hoped that I did the math right.  On the first one I used 3.9 x 4.7 x 4.1 = 75 (roughly).  On the second (with dual transfer case arrangement, assuming that means 2 of them end to end) I did 3.9 x 4.7 x 4.7 x 5.29 = 456 (again, roughly) but I don't know if that is how they are set up.  Either way, I'm probably going to go with the W-56 to start (first gear is 3.954).

I believe the tires on it now are around 30 (maybe 29.5?) and that's okay for a start.  I'll take it out a bunch and the see what I want to do next.  It will probably be to go with the 5.29 diff equipped with ARB lockers.  Those will cost a bit so I will probably start with the rear and then eventually get to the front.  Having no experience with the ARB lockers in a truck, I really like what they do for our snowcats.  I got the thing stuck once (if you can believe that!) and it started to throw a track (darned rubber-tracked piece of ).  I would have been thoroughly screwed if I didn't have those ARB's.  I'm sure they are every bit as great a benefit in any vehicle.

Steve_925,
Dual stock cases seems like a good idea.  It's probably inexpensive too.  Do you, in fact, hook them up end to end?  Would that mean that you'd have a 5.2:1 possibility with dual 2.28's.  Shoot . . . I may as well do that since I already have one of the cases, but that also sounds like I may need to change the length of my drive shafts.  See, I really am a noob.  Is it starting to show yet, or has it been like a big neon sign all along!!!   Anyways, I can't thank you guys enough for all the help.  For the last 2-3 weeks, I had no idea what to do or where to start, but now at least I have a direction to follow.

Update: I found someone who wants to sell a W-56 along with a chain-driven topshift case for $250 or $150 each if sold separately.  Would it be worth it to get the case too?  It's from a 4Runner he is parting out.

[Talon84x4]

I don't know much about the different transmissions but i would not pick up that chain drive t-case if you don't have to. It is not as strong as the one you have in your truck now, and i don't think you can use it for dual cases either. 

[Steve_925]

I don't know much about the different transmissions but i would not pick up that chain drive t-case if you don't have to. It is not as strong as the one you have in your truck now, and i don't think you can use it for dual cases either. 

dont get the chain drive. you can only do dual cases with gear driven case from 4cyl trucks. whith duals you would use one of them complete the other will be torn apart and only the reduction part of itwill be used. you should search about cases theres alot out there.

Jordan7118,
Wow, I didn't even know about the W-56.  I'm glad you mentioned it.  I'll see if I can locate one.  About the 456:1, I had hoped that I did the math right.  On the first one I used 3.9 x 4.7 x 4.1 = 75 (roughly).  On the second (with dual transfer case arrangement, assuming that means 2 of them end to end) I did 3.9 x 4.7 x 4.7 x 5.29 = 456

thats all correct. he though you meant 3.9x2.28x4.7x5.29. most people run stock t-case ratio in the front case and the 4.7 in the rear case.

[SeanFoster [OP]]

with duals you would use one of them complete the other will be torn apart and only the reduction part of it will be used.

most people run stock t-case ratio in the front case and the 4.7 in the rear case.

Ahhh, I get it now.  Thanks a bunch!  Now I'm going to go find out as much as I can about transfer cases, gearing, etc.  This is cool stuff . . . I knew I'd get addicted quickly!  . . . and to think that this is only the beginning . . .

[Steve_925]

it all down hill from here lol

[Cheesemaker]

If I had your truck, this is what I'd do, if $ wasn't a factor on buildup:

1 ~ 4" lift
2 ~ 35" tires (37" might have to massage fender wells)
3 ~ Cross over steering with power steering & IFS steering box
4 ~ Duals with twin sticks
5 ~ W56 trans with 4cyl gear t-cases (if you can find a R151F tranny, it has a lower first gear, and is the strongest tranny)
6 ~ Lockers and 5.29 gears.
7 ~ Rock sliders and a cage (some guys like a cage better than a exo just for the weight difference) front or rear bumper if you want.

You would pretty much have a very capable wheeler with this setup. 

[SeanFoster [OP]]

Cheesemaker,
I'm not too sure if this truck came the way it is stock, but it looks like it has been lifted.  Not sure though.  It's been a while since I saw it last (can't wait to get it up here).

Once I replace the engine and tranny, I'm going to get out there and drive it a little.  When I upgrade the tires, I'd like to go with 35" tires to start, but it would be nice to be able to go up to 37" without having to buy a new set of rims.  Will the 37" fit the same rims?

I don't know much about crossover steering or it's benefits so this will be a good thing for me to study up on.

I like the rest of the suggestions too.  I am a little worried about crunching my sides and then not being able to open or close the door so I may move the rock sliders up on the list since those would be easy to install.  The cage can always come later when my driving skills improve and I begin to tackle more challenging things, but I have seen plenty videos where they have completely saved a rig.  I have also seen videos where a cage was not used and they flipped, pretty much destroying the rig.

[Steve_925]

if you have a roll cage and you flip your still gonna destroy your truck, but not your head. research hy steer, and ifs steering box upgrade. what engine is in it. if your spending the money already might be a good idea to upgrade to a EFI 22RE

[Cheesemaker]

If your rig has the stock steering, then it has the J-arm setup which is a weak setup.  Which works fine for stock tires, but once you lift it, it becomes a weak point.  Learn how your rig handles, and then gradually build up what needs to be fixed.  There are many of us here that wheel hardcore stuff and don't have cages or exo's.  85% of us only run rock sliders, and have very minimal body damage, and most of that is either fenders or the tail end of our beds.  Which is why most bob there beds, for better departure angle. 

Get the motor/trans swapped out, and do a crossover steering setup and try to do a efi swap if you can, or if you go with carb, stay with the factory carb.  Then wheel.  Get to know your rig and learn from it.  Then upgrade to what would get you to the next level.  Then wheel. 

We need pics asap. 

[Jordan7118]

If I had your truck, this is what I'd do, if $ wasn't a factor on buildup:

1 ~ 4" lift
2 ~ 35" tires (37" might have to massage fender wells)
3 ~ Cross over steering with power steering & IFS steering box
4 ~ Duals with twin sticks
5 ~ W56 trans with 4cyl gear t-cases (if you can find a R151F tranny, it has a lower first gear, and is the strongest tranny)
6 ~ Lockers and 5.29 gears.
7 ~ Rock sliders and a cage (some guys like a cage better than a exo just for the weight difference) front or rear bumper if you want.

You would pretty much have a very capable wheeler with this setup. 

That's a pretty good list. If you wanna do it cheap(er), look up RUFs and F150 springs. I'm not really a fan of the Chevy's. Again, that's personal opinion.

The hardest thing you'll encounter is figuring out what you wanna believe. Some people swear by a mod and others are blatantly against it. It all comes down to what YOU want. Research will help you decide what YOU want based on the opinions of others.

Keep throwin' questions, mayne!!!

[SeanFoster [OP]]

Okay, so I looked up crossover steering and IFS steering box and I think I understand it now.  With the stock steering, the Pitman arm swings forward and back and moves the "boomerang-shaped" J-arm  which turns the left wheel.  The tie rod connects the left wheel to the right so that the right follows what the left does.

With the crossover steering, the IFS steering box is used.  With it, the Pitman arm swings side-to-side instead of front to back.  It moves a drag link which is connected to the right wheel, turning it.  The tie rod connects the right wheel to the left, causing the left to follow what the right does.  With Hy-steer, it puts the tie rod and drag link above the springs instead of below, getting them up and out of the way.  Also, a steering stabilizer can be connected between the tie rod and another solid point such as the u-bolt plate on a top-mounted u-bolt.

I got all this info from here.

Right now, it has a 22R in there.  Won't it cost a bunch more to put the 22RE in?  I thought you had to replace a bunch of stuff like the gas tank, wiring, etc.  Plus, I'll have to go to the state ref once it's done to be able to smog it so that I can still drive it on the road, although that's not a big deal.  Plus, I just bought a really nice vehicle trailer from a friend so I could just trailer it and only use it off-road.  Then my possibilities are endless!  Hmm . . . okay, you talked me into it:  a 22RE it is.

I'm not too worried about the inevitable minor crunches and dings.  I'm probably going to end up taking off the bed so I won't need to worry too much about bobbing it, although it looks pretty easy to do.  First things first . . . engine and tranny.  I contacted that guy who is selling the W56 for $150 and he said that he's got a deal working for the W56 and the case together and that if it falls through, he'll contact me.

I'll get pictures as soon as I can but right now, I'm working 12-hour nightshifts, 7 nights in a row, and the first 3 were with a 103-degree fever.  All I've been doing is taking medicine, working, and sleeping.  My schedule is 7 on, 7 off and I start my days off this Wednesday (2/11) so I'll be sure to get the pictures then, even if I don't take it up to my house yet (I have to clean the garage out and it keeps snowing ).  My wife has a nice camera (Nikon) so they should turn out real good. It's a good thing she's in my corner with this rock crawling business .

[Steve_925]

  you got it perfect.

[SeanFoster [OP]]

Okay, you asked for it . . . here are all 21 pictures that my mom so graciously took since I wasn't able to get down to take some (my turd coworker called in sick so I have to work for him ).

[Jordan7118]

Looks good, mayne!!!   

[LilChief87]

nice lil platform

[SeanFoster [OP]]

It's rusted, but the frame is straight and I don't care too much about how it looks paint-wise.  I'll sand it down and throw some paint on it eventually, but nothing real nice . . . just something to keep it from rusting again.  Of course, if I was concerned about looks, I don't think I'd be off-roading it.  Anyways, it doesn't look like I'm going to get that W56 for $150, but I found another one for $200.  Does this sound okay price-wise?

[dniel]

 
It sounds like you are serious about this and have some money to spend on it. I would recomend reading a bunch of build threads. You want to get a firm picture of what your end goal is. If you don't you will spend money on mods and then more money latter to upgrade them. Many people spend alot of money on their first truck learning and then sell things at a loss to rebuild it. For example if you get duel stock cases now when you upgrade to 4.7 rear case you will want 23 spline and will have to buy a new coupler for your adapter. Little things like this add up quickly.

Right now the best investments you could make would be a welder and a torch or plasma cutter.
As for the truck getting a duel case set up with 23 spline 4.7 in the rear would be safe upgrade as you will eventualy do this anyway. It sounds like this is not a daily driver so weld the rear gears and get some used 31"-33" mud tires. This set up will take you 99% of the places you want to go.

How many miles on the motor. Check the compression and valve clearance and carb. If you buy a new motor now you will regret it latter if you want more power and decide to do a motor swap.

As for bigger things like axles, gears, and lockers once you have decided what you want look for used axles already built. Toyota axles are not great for holding their value and if you wait for a deal you can get what you want used for half of what it would cost new.

[dniel]

P.S.

That is a vary nice starting platform. Think about bobing the bed or you will drag  every where you go.
Can't wait to see this get built.