Author Topic: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS  (Read 68148 times)

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blackdiamond

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #30 on: Nov 02, 2008, 07:04:38 PM »
I wouldn't run pennzoil anything, that oil aint no better than quaker sludge. The problem with them is they are both derived from Pennsylvania crude which is in fact one of the purest unrefined oils in the world, however it also has a parafin base which tends to cause sludge, you will be ok so long as you go back and buy more every 3k miles, but if I were you I wouldn't run it over 3.5k. mean while at 8k miles my castrol is still going strong

This reply tells me your oil knowledge is way out of date.  I run it because it was recommended by one of the leading independent oil analysis experts that works around the world.  Your argument might hold slightly more weight if I hadn't said Platinum that is a Group III synthetic base oil and highly highly refined.  The parafin base debate actually started during the "black gold" era and was the result of marketing, I've seen the advertisement.

In any case, this thread isn't about this so go do some research on BITOG forum, that www.bobistheoilguy.com
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #31 on: Nov 02, 2008, 07:50:11 PM »
Not only are they high in paraffin wax but they are also very high in resin content. Plus in cold climates paraffin will freeze and crystallize. This is when you will get severe build up and deposits in your engine. In most cases both of these products have been removed from the oil and is no longer an issue. Personally I would not run Pennzoil just from this history. When running conventional oil in the past I lived for Castoroil since they were small and their quality standard was unmatched. That was in the past though and since the introduction of Synthetic's and their umatched engineering that is what I use now. Mobil1 has a life of almost 15,000 miles per their claims, I don't think I would feel comfortable going that long. Not because I'm worried about the oil but because I'd be worried about other things. First and foremost is the filter, there is no way it will last that long and the last thing you want is to have a filter or engine system to go into bypass mode. Figure that even though the oils properties are still fine but that there is a lot more crap floating around since you are going that long. I won't even leave gear oil in my drivetrain longer than 15,000 miles.

Here's what I do, every 5,000 miles I change my oil and oil filter and every 3rd oil change I also change the gear oil in the entire drive train. I use 100% synthetic oils, and it would be Valvoline SynPower throughout. This is not just because I have a Valvoline Quick Lube I was doing this before I ever went into it. Also just recently Valvoline was rated 4 times better than Mobil1 which has for years been the industry standard for which synthetics are judged.

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blackdiamond [OP]

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #32 on: Nov 02, 2008, 08:08:25 PM »
Not only are they high in paraffin wax but they are also very high in resin content.

Define "high" for me.  How do they compare to other brands?  It seems odd that the oil geeks are currently choosing Pennzoil Platinum over just about everything else right now if it was such a dangerous product.  It actually tests better than almost every other brand currently on the market.

 :dunno:
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #33 on: Nov 02, 2008, 08:47:13 PM »
That was then this is now, like I said Pennzoil is removing the paraffin out of their oil now so it is a mute issue, and by doing that they also take the resins with it. Resins and paraffin go hand in hand, if you have paraffin you will have the resins the paraffin create. Pennzoil had major issues with paraffin and resin build ups in the late 80's and early 90's but is not an issue anymore. I've seen what it would do to an engine, would plug everything. For me Pennzoil is like dealing with a person that lies, it's gonna take a long time before I can trust them.
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blackdiamond [OP]

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #34 on: Nov 02, 2008, 09:52:01 PM »
That was then this is now, like I said Pennzoil is removing the paraffin out of their oil now so it is a mute issue, and by doing that they also take the resins with it. Resins and paraffin go hand in hand, if you have paraffin you will have the resins the paraffin create. Pennzoil had major issues with paraffin and resin build ups in the late 80's and early 90's but is not an issue anymore. I've seen what it would do to an engine, would plug everything. For me Pennzoil is like dealing with a person that lies, it's gonna take a long time before I can trust them.

I was looking for the ancient add that some credit with starting the paraffin debate, back when there were two main oil sources, and there was quite a bit of discussion about all current oils being paraffin based.  I'll have to do some additional research on that.

If you want to talk about liars, Mobil 1 attacked Castrol a few years ago in a debate about Group III vs. Group IV oils and many believe their current formula is Group III rather than Group IV.

All I can tell you is that I have been told, from a trustworthy source in the industry, that Pennzoil Platinum was, in his opinion, the best current "off-the-shelf" motor oil.  He wanted me to run RLI oil, but they are not API or warranty approved so I opted to go a different direction.

To be honest, I used to feel the same way about Pennzoil that you do, but after joining BITOG I learned that I was an ignorant bigot when it came to oil.
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #35 on: Nov 02, 2008, 10:01:56 PM »
Oh I'm not ignorant on the issue, Pennzoil has just left a bad taste in my mouth due to their previous years..... and maybe because it's the main oil for Jiffylube and they just plain suck.
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blackdiamond [OP]

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #36 on: Nov 02, 2008, 10:18:04 PM »
Oh I'm not ignorant on the issue, Pennzoil has just left a bad taste in my mouth due to their previous years..... and maybe because it's the main oil for Jiffylube and they just plain suck.

I know from your posts that you have more knowledge that most on this forum, probably a lot more than me on most subjects so I don't consider you "ignorant," but very few people are current on motor oil as it takes a real nerd to even care about actual tests.  I joined the select club of idiots willing to pay someone to test their used oil a few moons ago.

For an oil knowledge test, do you know why 10w-30 is generally more resistant to viscosity breakdown compared to 5w-30?
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #37 on: Nov 03, 2008, 08:43:10 AM »
Shot in the dark here but since heat is the biggest source of viscosity breakdown I'll go with that. Plus the 5W-30 has to contend with a broader range of kinematic viscosity energy so it must work harder to lubricate the engine.
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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #38 on: Nov 03, 2008, 11:51:23 AM »
Shot in the dark here but since heat is the biggest source of viscosity breakdown I'll go with that. Plus the 5W-30 has to contend with a broader range of kinematic viscosity energy so it must work harder to lubricate the engine.

You're partially on the right track.  The Viscosity Improvers are the first thing to shear and the larger the variance in the weights the more of them that are required.  As a result, 5w-30 oil is less resistent to shear (I believe mechanical, chemical (fuel) and heat all apply) so it will thin easier.

Ironically, there are thick 5w's and think 10w's that are nearly impossible to tell apart.  I was advised to run 10w-30 in my car because it would be nearly impossible to prove the original viscosity in testing if it were every in question.  I have opted to stay with the factory recommendation so far.  Synthetic oils, especially Group III and IV contain the least amount of Viscosity Improvers because they have more of a natural tendency to change grades.
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #39 on: Nov 03, 2008, 06:31:15 PM »
You're partially on the right track.  The Viscosity Improvers are the first thing to shear and the larger the variance in the weights the more of them that are required.  As a result, 5w-30 oil is less resistent to shear (I believe mechanical, chemical (fuel) and heat all apply) so it will thin easier.

Ironically, there are thick 5w's and think 10w's that are nearly impossible to tell apart.  I was advised to run 10w-30 in my car because it would be nearly impossible to prove the original viscosity in testing if it were every in question.  I have opted to stay with the factory recommendation so far.  Synthetic oils, especially Group III and IV contain the least amount of Viscosity Improvers because they have more of a natural tendency to change grades.

It is viscosity characteristics not the true weight of oils viscosity, that's why some oils with the same viscosity ratings seem to be heavier than another brand.
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blackdiamond [OP]

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #40 on: Nov 03, 2008, 06:40:13 PM »
It is viscosity characteristics not the true weight of oils viscosity, that's why some oils with the same viscosity ratings seem to be heavier than another brand.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm

I was talking about the measured viscosity.  There are 0w-30 oils that are in the range of a 5w-30, etc.  It seems that some oils are rated for marketing purposes. 

Maybe I'm not understanding what you said...
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #41 on: Nov 03, 2008, 06:47:21 PM »
Yeah it can get pretty confusing, 5w does not really have a viscosity of 5 as 30 does not have a viscosity of 30. What the numbers mean is the oil has the characteristics of 5W-30. Does that clarify what I'm saying? The numbers on the bottle are for consumer information so they/you know which oil has the proper characteristics.
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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #42 on: Nov 03, 2008, 06:53:38 PM »
Also as to the sheer point of any oil the most important part of sheer is its sheer temperature. All synthetic oils have such a high sheer point that the viscosity improvers don't play into the sheer point as much. You can pass the sheer point of a conventional oil before the vehicle overheats thus losing all the lubricating properties of oil and damage the motor through lack of lubrication. The sheer point is so high on synthetics that you will have boiled over way before the sheer occurs.
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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #43 on: Nov 03, 2008, 08:48:12 PM »
Yeah it can get pretty confusing, 5w does not really have a viscosity of 5 as 30 does not have a viscosity of 30. What the numbers mean is the oil has the characteristics of 5W-30. Does that clarify what I'm saying? The numbers on the bottle are for consumer information so they/you know which oil has the proper characteristics.

My understanding is that a 5w-30 has the viscosity of a 30 weight oil at the "operating" high standard temperature and the viscosity of a 5 weight at the cold standard temperature.  Basically, at operating temperature it should be similar to a straight weight 30 and at cold temps the same as a straight weight 5 oil.
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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #44 on: Oct 06, 2012, 02:37:10 PM »
« Last Edit: Oct 06, 2012, 08:26:18 PM by 79coyotefrg »
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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #45 on: Oct 06, 2012, 02:59:41 PM »
not the oil filter but the OIL

Have you heard about the “zinc” problem with modern motor oils? Many classic car owners and racers have experienced camshaft failures due to modern motor oils. Even worse, be prepared for the “zinc” to change in motor oils again later this Fall.

If you’ve not had the pleasure of having your camshaft go flat due to modern motor oils, consider yourself very fortunate. As an owner of an engine parts warehouse, I’ve seen hundreds of perfectly good camshafts ruined by modern motor oils. So when I read about the “new” API SN motor oil coming out this Fall, I started talking to the engine builders we supply parts. The engine builders all said the same thing – car owners don’t much know about these modern motor oils and the problems these oils create in classic cars and race cars. Knowing about the Cruise News, I contacted Mike to see if he could help us spread the word – modern motor oils are not good for your classic hot rods and race cars.

Here’s the facts:

“Zinc” or ZDDP as it is commonly referred to in motor oils is a type of chemical called Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate, and “Zinc” has been the most common anti-wear additive used in motor oils for the last 60 years. I just call it “Zinc” because it is easier to say and spell.

“Zinc” is a remarkable chemical that protects engine parts from metal to metal contact under heavy loads. “Zinc” works by creating a film on the iron and steel parts in your engine. Unfortunately, “Zinc” also creates a film inside modern Three Way Catalytic converters. This “Zinc Poisoning” limits Three Way Catalytic converter life to around 70,000 miles.

The Federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) mandates that car manufacturers warranty Three Way Catalytic converters on new cars built since 2004 for 120,000 miles.

To achieve this goal, the car manufacturers worked with the American Petroleum Institute (API) to create new, lower “Zinc” oils that allow Three Way Catalytic converters to live for 120,000 miles.

These new “Lower Emissions” oils have extended catalytic converter life, but they have shortened the life of flat-tappet camshafts.

Not long after these modern motor oils with less “Zinc” hit the market, we started to notice an increase in flat-tappet camshaft failures. At first, it was the race engine builders, so we shrugged it off as some new “trick” the race guys were doing that caused the problem. Then we started to see stock flat tappet camshafts going flat.

Things got ugly really fast. Every camshaft company started researching the problem. So did the Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association. Everybody wanted to know, why are cams going flat?

The answer was “Zinc”.

Lower “Zinc” oils work just fine in modern production car engines with overhead cams, and roller lifters. These modern engines don’t rev past 5,000 RPM.

Most hot rod and race motors have push rods, flat tappet lifters and rev beyond 5,000 RPM. These engines need motor with more “Zinc”.

The good news is that “High Zinc” oils are available.

If you have a classic car or race car, I highly recommend using the Joe Gibbs brand oils.
We have seen a dramatic reduction in camshaft problems when our engine builders started using the Joe Gibbs brand oils. Since Joe Gibbs Racing is a NASCAR team, they are on top of all the latest advancements in technology, and they have developed oils that work. I’ve seen used parts from Joe Gibbs Racing engines that look brand new (even with over 600 miles on them).

If you’ve not had any problems so far, consider yourself very lucky. Switching to a “High Zinc” oil before the new API SN oils hit the shelves is like an insurance policy against having problems.
We like selling engine parts, but I hate seeing good parts go bad - Especially when they don’t have to.

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #46 on: Oct 06, 2012, 04:35:30 PM »
the W in 5w 30 stands for winter not weight

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #47 on: Oct 06, 2012, 07:19:31 PM »
the W in 5w 30 stands for winter not weight
Please show me that in writing, your resource for that information. In my 55 plus of wrenching it has always meant "weight"!
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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #48 on: Oct 06, 2012, 07:45:40 PM »
just because you have been doing it that long doesn't mean your right

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/171/oil-can

specifically  near the bottom  ill quote


"Achieving the high Viscosity Indexes required by modern motor oils has been accomplished by adding VI improvers to create multigrade oils such as 10W-30. The W signifies winter and is the oil’s low temperature characteristics, while the higher number gives the oil’s high temperature viscosity properties. A 10W-30 oil behaves as 10-weight oil at low temperatures but gives the protection of 30-weight oil at the high engine operating temperatures. Viscosity Modifiers or VI improvers are high molecular weight polymers that remain inert at low temperatures. As oil is heated, they expand to help the oil maintain its viscosity.

Low viscosity base oil fortified with viscosity modifiers can perform well at low temperatures. If the viscosity modifiers break down under high shear conditions, the oil offers impaired protection at high engine temperatures. The development of shear stable viscosity modifiers has improved significantly over the years.

look at chart on page.

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #49 on: Oct 06, 2012, 07:50:09 PM »
correct me if I am wrong, I worked at a shop on the Oregon coast with a old timer, he told me allot of the common mechanical blunders one being people thinking the W stands for weight

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #50 on: Oct 06, 2012, 08:08:14 PM »
and penz oil sucks

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #51 on: Oct 06, 2012, 08:38:47 PM »
just because you have been doing it that long doesn't mean your right

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/171/oil-can

specifically  near the bottom  ill quote


"Achieving the high Viscosity Indexes required by modern motor oils has been accomplished by adding VI improvers to create multigrade oils such as 10W-30. The W signifies winter and is the oil’s low temperature characteristics, while the higher number gives the oil’s high temperature viscosity properties. A 10W-30 oil behaves as 10-weight oil at low temperatures but gives the protection of 30-weight oil at the high engine operating temperatures. Viscosity Modifiers or VI improvers are high molecular weight polymers that remain inert at low temperatures. As oil is heated, they expand to help the oil maintain its viscosity.

Low viscosity base oil fortified with viscosity modifiers can perform well at low temperatures. If the viscosity modifiers break down under high shear conditions, the oil offers impaired protection at high engine temperatures. The development of shear stable viscosity modifiers has improved significantly over the years.

look at chart on page.


:popcorn:
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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #52 on: Oct 06, 2012, 09:05:22 PM »
"The W signifies winter and is the oil’s low temperature characteristics, while the higher number gives the oil’s high temperature viscosity properties."

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #53 on: Oct 06, 2012, 09:27:32 PM »
and i quote.........

Achieving the high Viscosity Indexes required by modern motor oils has been accomplished by adding VI improvers to create multigrade oils such as 10W-30. The W signifies winter and is the oil’s low temperature characteristics, while the higher number gives the oil’s high temperature viscosity properties. A 10W-30 oil behaves as 10-weight oil at low temperatures but gives the protection of 30-weight oil at the high engine operating temperatures. Viscosity Modifiers or VI improvers are high molecular weight polymers that remain inert at low temperatures. As oil is heated, they expand to help the oil maintain its viscosity.

...THAT PARAGRAPH CONTRADICTS ITSELF

what the hell does winter have to do with anything cold?

to me. W is just a letter, dont mean stink no more..
just like the old saying tomato tomato......................  OH hell they both look the same,    just like 10 dub ya 30 and 10w30...

i dont think it makes a damn bit of difference either way.........

Those are some huge welds!

The life of the "Fiver Rivers Runner"

84 runner, 22r,5.29s duals, locked,RUF w/39.5's..
Tillamook, OR

OOPS

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #54 on: Oct 06, 2012, 10:04:09 PM »
just because you have been doing it that long doesn't mean your right
Did not want to be right or wrong. Now I know that my thinking on the subject was wrong. Thank you for showing me that information. I may be sixty seven, but I still try and learn something new every day.

Do I know everything, no and you proved that today, but I do know a heck of a lot, do not be so quick to jump on someone when they ask you where you got your info!!!

David & Theresa Fritzsche, 1990 Ex-Cab with a few mods!!!!!!!!! Roseville, CA Sobriety =Serenity

kneedownnate

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #55 on: Oct 06, 2012, 10:55:38 PM »
:therethere:  In all fairness, it was you who called him a liar.  He was just on his game and sufficiently came to his own defense  ;)  Everybody (except me) makes mistakes...   :_oops:
RIP KYOTA

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #56 on: Oct 07, 2012, 05:21:28 AM »
no harm no foul   as always to each there own    your all cool in my eyes

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #57 on: Oct 07, 2012, 09:07:11 AM »
I am sorry if you felt I called you a lair, which was not my intention. I just wanted to see the facts in writing on something that I was misled on many years ago by my auto shop teacher in high school.
David & Theresa Fritzsche, 1990 Ex-Cab with a few mods!!!!!!!!! Roseville, CA Sobriety =Serenity

madhunt

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #58 on: Oct 08, 2012, 09:25:26 AM »
if worried about new oils you can run valvoline racing oils wich have alot of zink but they need to be changed more often, or you can add a bottle of cam breakin oil at every oil change or you can add a bottle of lucas oil stabilizer, or thier break in oil we had a custumer with an 30's cadalic with a bronze dist gear it got wiped out in less then 50 miles becouse it had the wrong oil in the motor, if you have a engine and its 20 or more years old i would be looking into using a non-standard motor oil to make sure that motor will last.
HIGH AND TIGHT OFFROAD

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Re: 22R & 22RE OIL FILTER APPLICATIONS
« Reply #59 on: Oct 21, 2012, 10:05:34 PM »
I wouldn't run pennzoil anything, that oil aint no better than quaker sludge. The problem with them is they are both derived from Pennsylvania crude which is in fact one of the purest unrefined oils in the world, however it also has a parafin base which tends to cause sludge, you will be ok so long as you go back and buy more every 3k miles, but if I were you I wouldn't run it over 3.5k. mean while at 8k miles my castrol is still going strong

Ever hear of myths?  First, parafin is a wax and causes a completely different build-up than sludge, it's essentially wax build-up.  Second, you're falling for an ad campaign from years and years ago, I've actually the poster on a different forum.  I think it was Texas oil trying to discredit Pennsylvania crude.

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