You're WRONG Gore! WRONG! ....discuss....

[93tonkatoy]

If Gore is so worried about co2 release and "global warming", then he needs to be the first one to voluntarily stop breathing!

The "historical records" they use to tell the climate changes and the co2 levels in the past, are what is frozen into the ice sheets of the north. Scientists, for years, have said that the Earth had MANY warming/cooling trends. So, they DO NOT have records of the last "warm" trend, because the Ice sheets don't survive. Human existance has been almost entirely in the "warming trend" after the last ice age. How warm will it get? I do not know, but they don't either. Our greenhouse gas emissions MAY accellerate the trend a small amount, but the earth and its cycles is what we cannot change. "Mother Nature" is going to do what she is supposed to, we, as humans, are going to have to be prepared for the change.

[79coyotefrg]

AMEN BROTHER

[Lady Di]

The way, in my opinion, to reduce population growth is to expand prosperity. The main reason families in 3rd world countries have so many children is...they need them to help feed the family and the localized group...also, their life expectancy is very low. Societies based on subsistence agriculture need every hand to tend livestock, farm, prepare food and tend to the younger children. Americans, up to the post WWII era had much larger families than we do now...because we were still an agrarian based people. I believe the same holds true for all people...in any country, the prosperous "classes" have fewer children than those in the lower financial groups because there is no need for large families. This allows for more resources to be devoted to fewer children...resulting in healthier kids. It may take a generation or so...but, once people "get used" to prosperity birth rates decline.

I figured you would come back with something simular, and because of our help, they do not need to overbreed as much as they used to have to due to the decline in death rate but yet they still do so that makes even more third world mouths for us to have to care for.

So even if their prosperity does grow, due to us, they don't get that they don't need to breed any more, and so they still do. AND... they do not have building codes in these countries so some natural disaster comes through and wipe mere fraction of them out and we have to race in and bail them out ...

BUT... then in re-reading your post... farming out American jobs to third world countries can only be a good thing because it will help to make them as properous as we are ergo lowering their population rates.

[Lady Di]

And you know.... statewide we have lots of land... you know, Rubicon Springs is prime real estate... there is no reason they can not pave a road into there, we've already paved the way. Buck Island, Spider Lake, the Springs... I can envision a major upscale community... hell.. the overlook after Cadillac Hill would make a gorgeous overlook for a nice mansion.. and then there are all those lakes on the way out just waiting for development.
Yeah... there is PLENTY of room for development in our country we haven't even begun to explore

[Lady Di]

I don't know about you I don't care what my population is per sq ft. all I know is I am already shoulder to shoulder and our natural resources can not support us and that is all that matters!
Its different for every state but where we live if the population overcomes the aquifer, the aquifer fills with salt water and that changes the logistics of life in Florida.

You all can rationalize all you want, build UP if you want.
I'm leaving no one to clean up after me, and I am very happy about that.

Oops is my cynicism showing again?

[abnormaltoy]

I figured you would come back with something simular, and because of our help, they do not need to overbreed as much as they used to have to due to the decline in death rate but yet they still do so that makes even more third world mouths for us to have to care for.

So even if their prosperity does grow, due to us, they don't get that they don't need to breed any more, and so they still do. AND... they do not have building codes in these countries so some natural disaster comes through and wipe mere fraction of them out and we have to race in and bail them out ...

BUT... then in re-reading your post... farming out American jobs to third world countries can only be a good thing because it will help to make them as properous as we are ergo lowering their population rates.

We don't need to farm out our jobs to grow 3rd world wealth...they need, every society needs, the same core industries that we had in the beginning...They can build their own tractors for farming, build a core steel industry and develop forestry resources. There are raw materials in developing countries that they can use to create their own wealth and prosperity. Giving to those in need is honorable, but long term...they need to develop for and by themselves. There are people who dissuade people living in mud huts from even building elementary electric services. So... the people in huts are burning buffalo dung to cook with and ruining their lungs. Hell, if the whole world could be brought up to where America was in the 1870's, as a minimum, the world would be much better off.

[abnormaltoy]

And you know.... statewide we have lots of land... you know, Rubicon Springs is prime real estate... there is no reason they can not pave a road into there, we've already paved the way. Buck Island, Spider Lake, the Springs... I can envision a major upscale community... hell.. the overlook after Cadillac Hill would make a gorgeous overlook for a nice mansion.. and then there are all those lakes on the way out just waiting for development.
Yeah... there is PLENTY of room for development in our country we haven't even begun to explore

There are more acres in forest now than there was in the 1860's. Wisely managed forests are more productive than virgin forests. I hate the fact that the Feds are the largest single land owner in the States...I would prefer each state own and manage lands on their own...maybe with the feds as a clearinghouse of information. The subject of land ownership, ownership of property at all, is a very touchy subject with socialists, when they're in power, as in California, they can restrict access to public land...not based on fact or science, but based solely on fiat. I can do the same thing...I can keep people off my land whether they like it or not. What if some weenies bought the Rubicon and we had no access? Is there a strong enough desire on the side of reasonable people to form a corporation to buy and maintain a massive chunk of land like the 'con?
We need to regain control of our education system, get rid of the education unions...so, that in time we can teach logic and reason and in yet more time return to a system of government of the people, by the people, for the people.

[WHITE_TRASH]

I don't know about you I don't care what my population is per sq ft. all I know is I am already shoulder to shoulder and our natural resources can not support us and that is all that matters!
Its different for every state but where we live if the population overcomes the aquifer, the aquifer fills with salt water and that changes the logistics of life in Florida.

You all can rationalize all you want, build UP if you want.
I'm leaving no one to clean up after me, and I am very happy about that.

Oops is my cynicism showing again?

Wow, that is so offbase its not even a joke.....  Since when are we using all our natural resources here???  We export a helluva lot of goods manufactured and natural all day every day.  We have no need to import anything, we do it to be fare to the rest of the world...   If you think we are overpopulating our land you are totally wrong once again.  Yes there are many population centers in the US but with a total land mass of 3.79 million square miles and only 300 million people we are FAR from overpopulated.  China is the most populated country with over a trillion people in it with india right behind them if I remember right. 

[abnormaltoy]

I don't know about you I don't care what my population is per sq ft. all I know is I am already shoulder to shoulder and our natural resources can not support us and that is all that matters!
Its different for every state but where we live if the population overcomes the aquifer, the aquifer fills with salt water and that changes the logistics of life in Florida.

You all can rationalize all you want, build UP if you want.
I'm leaving no one to clean up after me, and I am very happy about that.

Oops is my cynicism showing again?

Not all our material needs are going to be sated by traditional methods. We now recycle the majority of our steel and aluminum. New techniques for "raw" materials...might very well include the "mining" of old land fills for for recyclable materials...just 'cause we've thrown something away doesn't mean it disappears. Reclaiming what past generations have thrown away may be a great financial boon in the future.

Water, more than anything else will be the limiting factor in how many people earth can support. You can grow wheat in crappy soil...I haven't heard of anyone growing water yet. It will mean, at some point, relocation of population centers. If Florida runs out of fresh water and doesn't move toward desalination...then sumpin's got to give. Maybe more agriculture needs to move to hydroponics...it's more water intensive, but the water can be reused many times.

Ooops...my optimism is showing! My glass is not only always half full, it's got ice cubes in it. Man has been giving incredible inquisitiveness and ingenuity, we will survive and prosper.

[abnormaltoy]

Wow, that is so offbase its not even a joke.....  Since when are we using all our natural resources here???  We export a helluva lot of goods manufactured and natural all day every day.  We have no need to import anything, we do it to be fare to the rest of the world...   If you think we are overpopulating our land you are totally wrong once again.  Yes there are many population centers in the US but with a total land mass of 3.79 million square miles and only 300 million people we are FAR from overpopulated.  China is the most populated country with over a trillion people in it with india right behind them if I remember right. 

Well, a trillion people in China? That's pretty neat, since the Earth's population is only around 6.6 Billion.

We do need to export some of our goods...and we need to import what we haven't enough of...Chromium comes to mind first. That's what a free market is. If Grog has arrows and Klonk has bows...they trade and each is better of for it.

[93tonkatoy]

Wow, that is so offbase its not even a joke.....  Since when are we using all our natural resources here???  We export a helluva lot of goods manufactured and natural all day every day.  We have no need to import anything, we do it to be fare to the rest of the world...   If you think we are overpopulating our land you are totally wrong once again.  Yes there are many population centers in the US but with a total land mass of 3.79 million square miles and only 300 million people we are FAR from overpopulated.  China is the most populated country with over a trillion people in it with india right behind them if I remember right. 

If you reduce your numbers for our country to manageable size, then 79 people would have to maintain their existence from 1 square mile. Each person would have to survive on what an area 600 feet by 600 feet could produce. All food, building material, energy, and goods would have to be produced from that area, while also providing for natural habitat for wildlife and natural ecosystems. How long do you think that could be maintained? YES, we as a species are overpopulating our country, as are some other countries. Our resources will not last forever, and as the midwest proved with the dust bowl era, the more of nature we change to suit OUR needs, the more we upset the natural balance.

I am by no means a pessimist, but I do know that there is a point where man's ability to produce the basics of survival, not to mention the needs of our luxury society, will be surpassed. This may be a simple number point, or could be a major natural climate shift.

[BLACKDOG]

Ooops...my optimism is showing! My glass is not only always half full, it's got ice cubes in it. Man has been giving incredible inquisitiveness and ingenuity, we will survive and prosper.

Better be careful, global warming's gonna melt your ice cubes!

[abnormaltoy]

Better be careful, global warming's gonna melt your ice cubes!

No way....bra! I'm so chill I can save the polar bears!

[WHITE_TRASH]

Well, a trillion people in China? That's pretty neat, since the Earth's population is only around 6.6 Billion.

Bite me my sleep schedule lately has been on the minimum so I slipped..

If you reduce your numbers for our country to manageable size, then 79 people would have to maintain their existence from 1 square mile. Each person would have to survive on what an area 600 feet by 600 feet could produce. All food, building material, energy, and goods would have to be produced from that area, while also providing for natural habitat for wildlife and natural ecosystems. How long do you think that could be maintained? YES, we as a species are overpopulating our country, as are some other countries. Our resources will not last forever, and as the midwest proved with the dust bowl era, the more of nature we change to suit OUR needs, the more we upset the natural balance.

I am by no means a pessimist, but I do know that there is a point where man's ability to produce the basics of survival, not to mention the needs of our luxury society, will be surpassed. This may be a simple number point, or could be a major natural climate shift.

Holy crap another flat earther....  There is a fatal flaw to that logic that noone seems to notice.  Yes if each person had to produce their own food and housing materials etc etc then there is a slim chance it'd end up that we are actually overpopulating our country.  Problem with that is we have the ability to grow more food than we need and store it for later usage or we can sell/barter it to someone for other products we need.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for wiping out a few million useless humans from our country but to think we'll all die from overpopulating our country I say your high on something I want no part of.  The sky is falling my fat ass.

[Lady Di]

Wow, that is so offbase its not even a joke.....  Since when are we using all our natural resources here???  We export a helluva lot of goods manufactured and natural all day every day.  We have no need to import anything, we do it to be fare to the rest of the world...   If you think we are overpopulating our land you are totally wrong once again.  Yes there are many population centers in the US but with a total land mass of 3.79 million square miles and only 300 million people we are FAR from overpopulated.  China is the most populated country with over a trillion people in it with india right behind them if I remember right. 

By "OUR natural resources" I meant in my local area of Florida. It is a fact that in our area there are too many people and they are having to find alternate means to get water to people than sucking it out of the aquifer.
No given area can continue to develop unchecked, fortunately they are seeing that now, but its still a fight to preserve a lot of what is still undeveloped land/wetlands around here.

I don't think I ever said you'd all die from overpopulating our country (maybe it came across that way), it just makes living all that much less comfortable with too many people around.

And as was mentioned before, the most likely to breed proliferously are the ones that can least afford it, that's what chaps my hide probably the most.

Man is ingenious and will certainly survive regardless.

And speaking of water... what about desalination? I thought I heard or read someone they are doing that in the Tampa area.

Ah yes, here's an article (I didn't read through the whole thing) http://www.water-technology.net/projects/tampa/

[WHITE_TRASH]

OK if your talking about just florida specifically I can totally understand you saying that.   Florida doesn't have a whole lot of resources unless you count gators and swamp land... 

[Lady Di]

OK if your talking about just florida specifically I can totally understand you saying that.   Florida doesn't have a whole lot of resources unless you count gators and swamp land... 

We have oranges, too Or used to have... all the orange groves are growing anymore are new subdivisions and strip malls.

[WHITE_TRASH]

One thing you need to remember is that the US economy is like a big CoOp....  You guys can't grow anything but concrete...  BUT Eastern WA grows enough food to sustain your state and others just like it to make up for it.

[Lady Di]

One thing you need to remember is that the US economy is like a big CoOp....  You guys can't grow anything but concrete...  BUT Eastern WA grows enough food to sustain your state and others just like it to make up for it.

That's true. I guess I just see what is going on around me and forget to look at the big picture. I can't see the forest for ..... all the dang people in my way...and most of them not speaking English to boot.

[MiniSimp]

That's true. I guess I just see what is going on around me and forget to look at the big picture. I can't see the forest for ..... all the dang people in my way...and most of them not speaking English to boot.

Don't worry, We'll save some for ya!

[WHITE_TRASH]

Funny, I drive past tracy every week.  I pick up produce in Salinas, now you wanna talk about produce production!  WOW they grow a helluva lot of all kinds down there.

[abnormaltoy]

Don't worry, We'll save some for ya!

You better lay in a supply of Baggies, if all that is for her!

[Lady Di]

Don't worry, We'll save some for ya!

You better lay in a supply of Baggies, if all that is for her!

Youse guys are the best!

[Huhwhye]

"Klaus alleged that the global warming was being championed by scientists and other environmentalists whose careers and funding requires selling the public on global warming."

And Klaus, as an economist has no axe to grind either 

[abnormaltoy]

"Klaus alleged that the global warming was being championed by scientists and other environmentalists whose careers and funding requires selling the public on global warming."

And Klaus, as an economist has no axe to grind either 

If you take standing up for a different point of view on an issue where debate was declared not needed or wanted, as having an axe to grind...then, yes, he and most everyone I know has an axe to grind. I don't think there are any grants available to the President of the Czech Republic. I'll bet there are, literally, billions at stake in grants, etc., as well as the stability of the careers for the proponents of MMGW.

There might have been some true believers in the beginning, but this is and, for the most part, always has been about power. The power to make the world as "they" think it should be...as a result of hysteria, not informed citizens. We've already lost too many of our freedom, incrementalism has taken a steep toll.

[Lady Di]

If you take standing up for a different point of view on an issue where debate was declared not needed or wanted, as having an axe to grind...then, yes, he and most everyone I know has an axe to grind. I don't think there are any grants available to the President of the Czech Republic. I'll bet there are, literally, billions at stake in grants, etc., as well as the stability of the careers for the proponents of MMGW.

There might have been some true believers in the beginning, but this is and, for the most part, always has been about power. The power to make the world as "they" think it should be...as a result of hysteria, not informed citizens. We've already lost too many of our freedom, incrementalism has taken a steep toll.

What he said.

[Lady Di]

And I have left wing commie friends in canadia (sic) that still buy into this and throw it in my face all the time. I only wish I could rebut as intelligently as these guys do.
I love you guys.

[Lady Di]

I am just an unedumacated peon that only speaks from personal experience and from my own view of life.

[93tonkatoy]

I am just an unedumacated peon that only speaks from personal experience and from my own view of life.

But you still do a better job of saying it than I do.

[WHITE_TRASH]

And I have left wing commie friends in canadia (sic) that still buy into this and throw it in my face all the time. I only wish I could rebut as intelligently as these guys do.
I love you guys.

How hard is ti to form a rebutle against a left wing moron?  Simply put, they live in canada... Case closed..  Nothing good ever came from canadia other than hockey and thats only mildly entertaining...